Strategies for Testing with UHO Openings and Bullet Time Controls

[supernova]

<a thousand words of LLM slop>

Why is this allowed?

The test is whether or not the OP can follow through with some replies. Nothing so far. Maybe we should create a dump forum “Probable ChatAI content”

If you think my post is too AI-stylish because I used Grammarly, feel free to delete it. No issue, keep it simple. Thanks.

[supernova]

Testing engines exclusively with UHO openings may not provide meaningful insights into their performance in real-world scenarios.

The problem here is, that in computerchess, UHO openings are the real-world scenario since several years:
- UHO-openings are used in the development of all top engines (look at Fishtest or OpenBench...) since end of 2021 (since August 2021, Stockfish-Framework uses UHO-openings, OpenBench followed a little later)
- UHO-openings are used in the 2 tournaments, which are important in computerchess (and recognized in the chess-world): TCEC and the engine-tournaments on chesscom

• Yes, there is the only point I agree: In computerchess for testing and improving and to attract people to tournamens such Chess.com (of course they need to monetize the resources).

So, only non-UHO-openings do not provide meaningful insights into the engine-performances. UHO does.
Thats the reason, why ratinglists, still using balanced openings, make no sense in these days anymore: Balanced openings just are no longer the "real-world scenario" in computerchess. UHO has taken over completely here since years. So, why testing engines completely different (balanced openings) to the way the engines are constructed and completely different to the way the engines play in the big tournaments (UHO openings) ? Obviously a bad idea, IMHO, and just ignoring the reality in computerchess.
Besides the fact, that the statistics are imploding, because of the draw-ratio of 90% or more, when pairing 2 strong engines for a ratinglist-testrun using balanced openings...

• UHO positions frequently favor one side because of an irregular pawn structure, misplaced pieces, or significant tempo losses.

• Such positions are often seen as "unfair" or unrealistic in practical chess, as they do not arise naturally in human play.

• An opening imbalance of more than 1 centipawn often leaves one side feeling like they are playing a losing or uphill battle right from the start, which is discouraging and unnatural for human play.

And for human games analysis or preparation, the engines of today are so much stronger than any human, that it is completely meaningless, if the engine is developed and tested, using UHO openings (this is what happens today) or not (before year 2021/22 or so). If anybody is afraid, that the modern engines will not deliver proper results, because UHO was used in their development (what I think, is completely nonsense), can easily use an older engine from 2021 or so. Stockfish 14 was the latest official Stockfish, developed using balanced openings. So, use Stockfish 14. -100 Elo to Stockfish 17.1, but this is completely meaningless, because Stockfish 14 has already 3750 CElo in my testings. Should be strong enough for any human purpose, until the end of time, or not?

• Irrelevant for Human Chess: In top-level human chess, most games begin with balanced positions where both sides have equal chances. UHO positions, however, frequently generate starting positions that are far removed from real-world scenarios. UHO positions rarely, if ever, occur in human games because they are specifically constructed to test engines in unbalanced or irregular setups.

• Skewed Results: UHO positions lead to skewed game results because of the inherent bias in the starting position. For example, if one side starts with a positional advantage, the outcomes will often favor that side disproportionately, making the games less meaningful for understanding true engine strength.

[Modern Times]

Irrelevant for Human Chess: In top-level human chess, most games begin with balanced positions where both sides have equal chances. UHO positions, however, frequently generate starting positions that are far removed from real-world scenarios. UHO positions rarely, if ever, occur in human games because they are specifically constructed to test engines in unbalanced or irregular setups.

I thought the "H" in UHO meant human, so these openings do come from actual human games. I may be wrong there - initially that was the case I think but maybe things have changed since then, in particular the need for a bigger volume of openings.

[supernova]

Irrelevant for Human Chess: In top-level human chess, most games begin with balanced positions where both sides have equal chances. UHO positions, however, frequently generate starting positions that are far removed from real-world scenarios. UHO positions rarely, if ever, occur in human games because they are specifically constructed to test engines in unbalanced or irregular setups.

I thought the "H" in UHO meant human, so these openings do come from actual human games. I may be wrong there - initially that was the case I think but maybe things have changed since then, in particular the need for a bigger volume of openings.

I will need to apologize for the important misleading information. I messed up here. You are right!!

[Event "Saint Louis Rapid"]
[Site "Lichess.org INT"]
[Date "2020.09.16"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Dominguez Perez, Leinier"]
[Black "Carlsen, Magnus"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2758"]
[BlackElo "2863"]
[ECO "C41"]
[EventDate "2020.09.15"]
[Annotator "depth=27 eval=+122"]
[EventType "tourn (rapid)"]
[Source "SPCC"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. Bf4 O-O 7. Qd2 c6
8. O-O-O b5 1/2-1/2

[supernova]

Irrelevant for Human Chess: In top-level human chess, most games begin with balanced positions where both sides have equal chances. UHO positions, however, frequently generate starting positions that are far removed from real-world scenarios. UHO positions rarely, if ever, occur in human games because they are specifically constructed to test engines in unbalanced or irregular setups.

I thought the "H" in UHO meant human, so these openings do come from actual human games. I may be wrong there - initially that was the case I think but maybe things have changed since then, in particular the need for a bigger volume of openings.

I will need to apologize for the important misleading information. I messed up here. You are right!!

I mixed the UHO with the Antidraw Test Set.

[Event "Saint Louis Rapid"]
[Site "Lichess.org INT"]
[Date "2020.09.16"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Dominguez Perez, Leinier"]
[Black "Carlsen, Magnus"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2758"]
[BlackElo "2863"]
[ECO "C41"]
[EventDate "2020.09.15"]
[Annotator "depth=27 eval=+122"]
[EventType "tourn (rapid)"]
[Source "SPCC"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. Bf4 O-O 7. Qd2 c6
8. O-O-O b5 1/2-1/2

I don't want to look like a troller.

[AndrewGrant]

I think Chess.com's goal is to promote their engine, Torch, through this tournament, which is a high-traffic platform. This doesn't necessarily mean the entire exercise is without value, but it does raise questions about the motivations behind it. TCEC's approach seems more balanced, and their results are worth considering alongside Chess.com's.

Surely I must have tripped and stumbled into another dimension. What?

UHO predates Torch at CCC. If I wanted to "promote Torch", I would use awful dead drawn openings, to shrink the elo gap with SF from 60 to 10. And then I could continually claim for years on end that we are just one good week away from passing Stockfish!

[supernova]

I think Chess.com's goal is to promote their engine, Torch, through this tournament, which is a high-traffic platform. This doesn't necessarily mean the entire exercise is without value, but it does raise questions about the motivations behind it. TCEC's approach seems more balanced, and their results are worth considering alongside Chess.com's.

Surely I must have tripped and stumbled into another dimension. What?

UHO predates Torch at CCC. If I wanted to "promote Torch", I would use awful dead drawn openings, to shrink the elo gap with SF from 60 to 10. And then I could continually claim for years on end that we are just one good week away from passing Stockfish!

I respectfully disagree with your perspective. I believe that Torch is quite similar to Stockish when utilizing UHO. Additionally, it's important to recognize that Chess.com has a business goal to monetize, and Torch is part of that strategy.

[AndrewGrant]

I think Chess.com's goal is to promote their engine, Torch, through this tournament, which is a high-traffic platform. This doesn't necessarily mean the entire exercise is without value, but it does raise questions about the motivations behind it. TCEC's approach seems more balanced, and their results are worth considering alongside Chess.com's.

Surely I must have tripped and stumbled into another dimension. What?

UHO predates Torch at CCC. If I wanted to "promote Torch", I would use awful dead drawn openings, to shrink the elo gap with SF from 60 to 10. And then I could continually claim for years on end that we are just one good week away from passing Stockfish!

I respectfully disagree with your perspective. I believe that Torch is quite similar to Stockish when utilizing UHO. Additionally, it's important to recognize that Chess.com has a business goal to monetize, and Torch is part in that strategy.

Quite similar. Identical, in fact.
Your commentary about Torch is misplaced in this thread entirely. I don't even know why you brought it up.

[supernova]

I think Chess.com's goal is to promote their engine, Torch, through this tournament, which is a high-traffic platform. This doesn't necessarily mean the entire exercise is without value, but it does raise questions about the motivations behind it. TCEC's approach seems more balanced, and their results are worth considering alongside Chess.com's.

Surely I must have tripped and stumbled into another dimension. What?

UHO predates Torch at CCC. If I wanted to "promote Torch", I would use awful dead drawn openings, to shrink the elo gap with SF from 60 to 10. And then I could continually claim for years on end that we are just one good week away from passing Stockfish!

I respectfully disagree with your perspective. I believe that Torch is quite similar to Stockish when utilizing UHO. Additionally, it's important to recognize that Chess.com has a business goal to monetize, and Torch is part in that strategy.

Quite similar. Identical, in fact.
Your commentary about Torch is misplaced in this thread entirely. I don't even know why you brought it up.

It is true. Sorry.

[supernova]

Due to misleading information on my behalf, could the moderator please delete this thread?

I need to reconsider the content, as I do not want to generate unnecessary noise. This thread has unfortunately devolved into a situation of 'garbage in, garbage out.

Thank you.