Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

[Uri Blass]

personally I decided also not to compete against the queen odd bot not only because I think the rules are not fair even if they are not against me but also because it is too easy to prepare against the engine.
The following game was my last game against the queen bot before the change in rules that reduce father's rating
https://lichess.org/V8g0o0LQ/black#14

First 7 moves are book moves thank to previous experience against lc0 and when I did not win the game directly out of book the book clearly helped me to increase the advantage.

It seems to me that from move 4 the engine is deterministic in my games and I wonder if it always play 4.h3 h5 5.g5 in games against other players.

I did not find a simple way to search in lichess for a specific position in games of a specific player.

[lkaufman]

personally I decided also not to compete against the queen odd bot not only because I think the rules are not fair even if they are not against me but also because it is too easy to prepare against the engine.
The following game was my last game against the queen bot before the change in rules that reduce father's rating
https://lichess.org/V8g0o0LQ/black#14

First 7 moves are book moves thank to previous experience against lc0 and when I did not win the game directly out of book the book clearly helped me to increase the advantage.

It seems to me that from move 4 the engine is deterministic in my games and I wonder if it always play 4.h3 h5 5.g5 in games against other players.

I did not find a simple way to search in lichess for a specific position in games of a specific player.

You can expect updates to the book, perhaps to the settings, and perhaps of the net itself in the near future that should make it more difficult to get repeat openings where it becomes a memory test. Maybe queen odds needs a higher temperature setting than the smaller odds. Meanwhile, the rook odds bot was updated late tonite to use a net specifically trained for rook odds. It's not a lot stronger than the knight odds bot was at rook odds, but it should be far less willing to give up draws in general than the net used until now. So I expect an improved performance for the bot, which was already performing very well.

[Brunetti]

More technically, only the superstar player could be faulted in this hypothetical scenario, because he stated his intention to play in a specific way (repeating if opponent repeated), while the weaker player (you) said nothing, just acted on the info. It's the same as if Nakamura said before the game that he planned to play the Berlin and allow the draw if you chose the Spanish, and you decided to trust him and did so. No one would fault you, and I'm not sure if Nakamura did anything against regulations either; is there a rule against announcing your planned opening move or moves before a game? Only if both sides do it is it a pre-arranged game. Perhaps some would say it is unethical as it means you are not trying your best, but that is debatable.

Larry, your response is thoughtful, but there are a few points worth considering.
You argue that only the "superstar player" could be faulted because he declared his intentions, while the weaker player merely acted on that information. However, the rules prohibit pre-arranged games, and if such a declaration leads to predictable behavior and an implicit agreement, it could still be seen as a violation.
Comparison with announcing openings: declaring an opening ("I'll play the Berlin") is technically fine because it doesn't imply a pre-determined result. However, equating this to announcing a willingness to repeat for a draw ("I'll stop at a repetition") is problematic. The latter directly ties to the outcome, which makes it fundamentally different and potentially against the rules.
And about the ethics, while it may be unclear whether announcing such intentions explicitly breaks any rule, professional (and also amateur) chess assumes that players strive for their best effort in every game. Anything that undermines this expectation could be considered unethical, and in fact, rule 11.1 states that players 'shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute,' making such behavior potentially illegal under the rules.
So, your point is nuanced, but it seems to defend a practice that raises concerns about the integrity of competition. Declaring a result, whether directly or indirectly, goes against the spirit of chess, and while some may find technical loop-holes to justify it, it ultimately risks undermining the fairness and respect for the game.

This has nothing to do with this thread, but oh well

Alex

[Father]

personally I decided also not to compete against the queen odd bot not only because I think the rules are not fair even if they are not against me but also because it is too easy to prepare against the engine.
The following game was my last game against the queen bot before the change in rules that reduce father's rating
https://lichess.org/V8g0o0LQ/black#14

First 7 moves are book moves thank to previous experience against lc0 and when I did not win the game directly out of book the book clearly helped me to increase the advantage.

It seems to me that from move 4 the engine is deterministic in my games and I wonder if it always play 4.h3 h5 5.g5 in games against other players.

I did not find a simple way to search in lichess for a specific position in games of a specific player.

You can expect updates to the book, perhaps to the settings, and perhaps of the net itself in the near future that should make it more difficult to get repeat openings where it becomes a memory test. Maybe queen odds needs a higher temperature setting than the smaller odds. Meanwhile, the rook odds bot was updated late tonite to use a net specifically trained for rook odds. It's not a lot stronger than the knight odds bot was at rook odds, but it should be far less willing to give up draws in general than the net used until now. So I expect an improved performance for the bot, which was already performing very well.

Good morning gentlemen Larry Kaufman, Uri Blass, Brunetti, Marcus91.
I hope you are well and continue to be well.
I express to you that in consideration of the establishment of unfair norms by the elo meters in the table of the top 100 Odds, norms that were decided, written and manufactured specifically and with deliberate intention of harming me and removing me from the first positions that legal and I just won, I find myself in the sad but firm decision to suspend all types of chess games against the Odds Bots as well as my participation in this forum. Only I will return to play again and write in these lines, if my elo level is restored in the table of the hundred best, based on the measurement standards and my results in the time controls bullet without increment and bullet with increment of his second, according to the mandates of the laws of chess.
I publicly reject any type of boycott that stops the advancement of any chess player who wins, through compromises that are only interested in taking care of the good name and elos of the chess stars. In the sky, in addition to stars and bodies, there are comets, meteorites and other celestial bodies that deserve recognition of their existence.
The firmament has been manufactured by Our Programmer to be occupied by everyone and not only by the stars.
I thank you in advance for the good offices you want and can provide for my requests.
Sincerely,
Father

[Father]

personally I decided also not to compete against the queen odd bot not only because I think the rules are not fair even if they are not against me but also because it is too easy to prepare against the engine.
The following game was my last game against the queen bot before the change in rules that reduce father's rating
https://lichess.org/V8g0o0LQ/black#14

First 7 moves are book moves thank to previous experience against lc0 and when I did not win the game directly out of book the book clearly helped me to increase the advantage.

It seems to me that from move 4 the engine is deterministic in my games and I wonder if it always play 4.h3 h5 5.g5 in games against other players.

I did not find a simple way to search in lichess for a specific position in games of a specific player.

You can expect updates to the book, perhaps to the settings, and perhaps of the net itself in the near future that should make it more difficult to get repeat openings where it becomes a memory test. Maybe queen odds needs a higher temperature setting than the smaller odds. Meanwhile, the rook odds bot was updated late tonite to use a net specifically trained for rook odds. It's not a lot stronger than the knight odds bot was at rook odds, but it should be far less willing to give up draws in general than the net used until now. So I expect an improved performance for the bot, which was already performing very well.

Good morning gentlemen Larry Kaufman, Uri Blass, Brunetti, Marcus91.
I hope you are well and continue to be well.
I express to you that in consideration of the establishment of unfair norms by the elo meters in the table of the top 100 Odds, norms that were decided, written and manufactured specifically and with deliberate intention of harming me and removing me from the first positions that legal and I just won, I find myself in the sad but firm decision to suspend all types of chess games against the Odds Bots as well as my participation in this forum. Only I will return to play again and write in these lines, if my elo level is restored in the table of the hundred best, based on the measurement standards and my results in the time controls bullet without increment and bullet with increment of his second, according to the mandates of the laws of chess.
I publicly reject any type of boycott that stops the advancement of any chess player who wins, through compromises that are only interested in taking care of the good name and elos of the chess stars. In the sky, in addition to stars and bodies, there are comets, meteorites and other celestial bodies that deserve recognition of their existence.
The firmament has been manufactured by Our Programmer to be occupied by everyone and not only by the stars.
I thank you in advance for the good offices you want and can provide for my requests.
Sincerely,
Father

[pgn][Event "Casual bullet game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/cq8qPcUX"]
[Date "2024.11.22"]
[White "LeelaQueenForKnight"]
[Black "Catecan"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[UTCDate "2024.11.22"]
[UTCTime "14:02:11"]
[WhiteElo "2000"]
[BlackElo "2030"]
[WhiteTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "60+0"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "r1bqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. f4 d5 2. d3 e6 3. e4 c6 4. Nf3 f5 5. e5 g6 6. d4 a6 7. Be3 b5 8. Nbd2 Bd7 9. Nb3 Qb6 10. Nc5 Bxc5 11. dxc5 Qc7 12. a4 Qb7 13. a5 O-O-O 14. Be2 Re8 15. b3 Re7 16. O-O-O Kb8 17. Kb2 h5 18. Bf2 Rhh7 19. Bh4 Reg7 20. b4 Qc7 21. h3 Bc8 22. Ng5 Ne7 23. Nxh7 Rxh7 24. Bg5 Rg7 25. g4 Ng8 26. gxh5 gxh5 27. Rhg1 Qf7 28. Rg3 Bd7 29. Rdg1 Be8 30. Kc3 Kb7 31. Bf3 Kb8 32. Kd4 Ka7 33. Ke3 Kb8 34. Kf2 Ka7 35. Be2 Kb8 36. Ke1 Ka7 37. Kd2 Kb8 38. Kc1 Ka7 39. Kb2 Kb8 40. Kc3 Ka7 41. Kd4 Kb8 42. Ke3 Ka7 43. Kf2 Kb8 44. Ke1 Ka7 45. h4 Kb8 46. Kd2 Ka7 47. Kc1 Kb8 48. Kb2 Ka7 49. Kc3 Kb8 50. Kd4 Ka7 51. Ke3 Kb8 52. Kf2 Ka7 53. Ke1 Kb8 54. Kd2 Ka7 55. Kc1 Kb8 56. Kb2 Ka7 57. Kb3 Kb8 58. Kc3 Ka7 59. Kd4 Kb8 60. Ke3 Ka7 61. Kf2 Kb8 62. Ke1 Ka7 63. Kd2 Kb8 64. Bf3 Ka7 65. Ke3 Kb8 66. Kf2 Ka7 67. Bd1 Kb8 68. Ke3 Ka7 69. Kd4 Kb8 70. R3g2 Ka7 71. Ke3 Kb8 72. Kf2 Ka7 73. Ke1 Kb8 74. Kf1 Ka7 75. Kf2 Kb8 76. Ke1 Ka7 77. Kf1 Kb8 78. Bf3 Ka7 79. Kf2 Kb8 80. Ke3 Ka7 81. Kd4 Kb8 82. Kc3 Ka7 83. Kb3 Kb8 84. c3 Ka7 85. Kc2 Kb8 86. Kd3 Ka7 87. Ke3 Kb8 88. Kf2 Ka7 89. Rg3 Kb8 90. Ke3 Ka7 91. Kd4 Kb8 92. Kd3 Ka7 93. Kc2 Kb8 94. Kb3 Ka7 95. Kb2 Kb8 96. Kc2 Ka7 97. Kd3 Kb8 98. Ke3 Ka7 99. Kf2 Kb8 100. Be2 Ka7 101. Ke1 Kb8 102. Kd2 Ka7 103. Kc2 Kb8 104. Kb3 Ka7 105. Kb2 Kb8 106. Kc2 Ka7 107. Kd2 Kb8 108. Ke1 Ka7 109. Kf2 Kb8 110. Ke3 Ka7 111. Kd4 Kb8 112. Kd3 Ka7 113. Kc2 Kb8 114. Kb3 Ka7 115. Ka3 Kb8 116. Kb2 Ka7 117. Bd1 Kb8 118. Kc2 Ka7 119. Kd2 Kb7 120. Ke3 Kb8 121. Kf2 Ka7 122. Ke1 Kb8 123. Kf1 Ka7 124. Ke2 Kb8 125. Kd2 Ka7 126. Kc2 Kb8 127. Kd3 Ka7 128. Kd4 Kb8 129. Be2 Ka7 130. Kd3 Kb8 131. Kc2 Ka7 132. Kb2 Kb8 133. Ka3 Ka7 134. Kb2 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Uri Blass]

personally I decided also not to compete against the queen odd bot not only because I think the rules are not fair even if they are not against me but also because it is too easy to prepare against the engine.
The following game was my last game against the queen bot before the change in rules that reduce father's rating
https://lichess.org/V8g0o0LQ/black#14

First 7 moves are book moves thank to previous experience against lc0 and when I did not win the game directly out of book the book clearly helped me to increase the advantage.

It seems to me that from move 4 the engine is deterministic in my games and I wonder if it always play 4.h3 h5 5.g5 in games against other players.

I did not find a simple way to search in lichess for a specific position in games of a specific player.

You can expect updates to the book, perhaps to the settings, and perhaps of the net itself in the near future that should make it more difficult to get repeat openings where it becomes a memory test. Maybe queen odds needs a higher temperature setting than the smaller odds. Meanwhile, the rook odds bot was updated late tonite to use a net specifically trained for rook odds. It's not a lot stronger than the knight odds bot was at rook odds, but it should be far less willing to give up draws in general than the net used until now. So I expect an improved performance for the bot, which was already performing very well.

Good morning gentlemen Larry Kaufman, Uri Blass, Brunetti, Marcus91.
I hope you are well and continue to be well.
I express to you that in consideration of the establishment of unfair norms by the elo meters in the table of the top 100 Odds, norms that were decided, written and manufactured specifically and with deliberate intention of harming me and removing me from the first positions that legal and I just won, I find myself in the sad but firm decision to suspend all types of chess games against the Odds Bots as well as my participation in this forum. Only I will return to play again and write in these lines, if my elo level is restored in the table of the hundred best, based on the measurement standards and my results in the time controls bullet without increment and bullet with increment of his second, according to the mandates of the laws of chess.
I publicly reject any type of boycott that stops the advancement of any chess player who wins, through compromises that are only interested in taking care of the good name and elos of the chess stars. In the sky, in addition to stars and bodies, there are comets, meteorites and other celestial bodies that deserve recognition of their existence.
The firmament has been manufactured by Our Programmer to be occupied by everyone and not only by the stars.
I thank you in advance for the good offices you want and can provide for my requests.
Sincerely,
Father

I do not plan to stop posting in this forum but I also decided not to play against the queen odd bot because of distorting the rating list that I consider to be not fair.

I suggest to have more than one rating list.
My first idea was to have rating lists for different time control but I think that a possible solution can be also to have 2 rating lists(when only in one of them you reduce the weight of draws) so people can see ranking both in the system that 2 draws are the same as win and loss and with the system that 4 draws are the same as win and loss.

[lkaufman]

personally I decided also not to compete against the queen odd bot not only because I think the rules are not fair even if they are not against me but also because it is too easy to prepare against the engine.
The following game was my last game against the queen bot before the change in rules that reduce father's rating
https://lichess.org/V8g0o0LQ/black#14

First 7 moves are book moves thank to previous experience against lc0 and when I did not win the game directly out of book the book clearly helped me to increase the advantage.

It seems to me that from move 4 the engine is deterministic in my games and I wonder if it always play 4.h3 h5 5.g5 in games against other players.

I did not find a simple way to search in lichess for a specific position in games of a specific player.

You can expect updates to the book, perhaps to the settings, and perhaps of the net itself in the near future that should make it more difficult to get repeat openings where it becomes a memory test. Maybe queen odds needs a higher temperature setting than the smaller odds. Meanwhile, the rook odds bot was updated late tonite to use a net specifically trained for rook odds. It's not a lot stronger than the knight odds bot was at rook odds, but it should be far less willing to give up draws in general than the net used until now. So I expect an improved performance for the bot, which was already performing very well.

Good morning gentlemen Larry Kaufman, Uri Blass, Brunetti, Marcus91.
I hope you are well and continue to be well.
I express to you that in consideration of the establishment of unfair norms by the elo meters in the table of the top 100 Odds, norms that were decided, written and manufactured specifically and with deliberate intention of harming me and removing me from the first positions that legal and I just won, I find myself in the sad but firm decision to suspend all types of chess games against the Odds Bots as well as my participation in this forum. Only I will return to play again and write in these lines, if my elo level is restored in the table of the hundred best, based on the measurement standards and my results in the time controls bullet without increment and bullet with increment of his second, according to the mandates of the laws of chess.
I publicly reject any type of boycott that stops the advancement of any chess player who wins, through compromises that are only interested in taking care of the good name and elos of the chess stars. In the sky, in addition to stars and bodies, there are comets, meteorites and other celestial bodies that deserve recognition of their existence.
The firmament has been manufactured by Our Programmer to be occupied by everyone and not only by the stars.
I thank you in advance for the good offices you want and can provide for my requests.
Sincerely,
Father

I do not plan to stop posting in this forum but I also decided not to play against the queen odd bot because of distorting the rating list that I consider to be not fair.

I suggest to have more than one rating list.
My first idea was to have rating lists for different time control but I think that a possible solution can be also to have 2 rating lists(when only in one of them you reduce the weight of draws) so people can see ranking both in the system that 2 draws are the same as win and loss and with the system that 4 draws are the same as win and loss.

I don't think that the difference between the two methods is big enough to justify maintaining two lists. It looks clear to me that the way to get a high rating on the list is not to go for draws at short time limits but rather to play at a slow enough time limit where you can usually win, so I don't think either choice will have much effect on the top few spots on the list. As long as the time control is in the Rapid range, I find it pretty easy to win, but not so in blitz, but of course I'm rather slow at age 77. Meanwhile the upgraded rook odds bot is doing very well, having already played over fifty games against LiChess players rated over 2400 with only a single loss (to GM Jon Ludvig Hammer, FIDE 2603, at 5'3") and two draws. Maybe a rook odds leaderboard will be viable if we get enough titled players playing it regularly.

[Uri Blass]

Oded Ross who won against dragon without a knight played first game against leela without a queen at 5+3 with white and won easily.

He is going to try later also black and faster time control.

https://lichess.org/@/oded789

[Uri Blass]

The main problem with the queen odd bots is that there are players who do not take it seriously.
One player lost most of his games but he told me by a private message that the reason is that he used a computer of a friend that make often mouse slips.

I asked him why he insisted to play with a bad mouse and he replied that it is only for fun and he is tired.

[lkaufman]

The main problem with the queen odd bots is that there are players who do not take it seriously.
One player lost most of his games but he told me by a private message that the reason is that he used a computer of a friend that make often mouse slips.

I asked him why he insisted to play with a bad mouse and he replied that it is only for fun and he is tired.

Why is that a big problem? Do you mean that it is a problem if we rely on all the games played for determining the formula for the leaderboard? I think that the formula allows somewhat for the fact that not all players play seriously. As long as we can make a reasonably good guess as to how much this affects results, we can compensate for it. Other than this, just ignore results that are clearly below average, there are always going to be players who play when sleepy or drunk or who just don't care, but I think they are a minority. There are other players like you who go to the opposite extreme and try to memorize their games in the hope of getting repeated openings which they have learned from. So maybe overall it's a fair test of players who try their best in each game without actually trying to repeat previous ones.