Rybka 1.0 vs. Strelka

[Graham Banks]

I think you should believe more what people who have expertise say... What else?

Who are the most skilled people in the field and what do they say?

It requires a special skill however: being able to discern the experts.



// Christophe

That's the problem. All the programmers think that they're experts and even they can't always agree.

Regards, Graham.

[tiger]

Okay. You guys basically believe that Vas has "cheated".

Nobody is allowed to take open source GPL'ed code, make this code "his own", and use it in a commercial closed source program.

I'm not allowed to do it. You are not.

If someone does it, I say it's a violation of the licence intended by the original author, I say it's unfair to those who have respected this licence, and don't expect me to keep quiet about it.

Either the game is fair and the rules are respected, or the field is turned into a mess.

Think about it: what's the point in a rating list if the rules are not respected? Find out who is the biggest shark? If there are no rules I can think about a couple of ways to become number one that you are probably not going to like.



// Christophe

You've certainly not kept quiet about what you believe to be the case, but how much noise do yourself and others intend to make and until what point? That was what I was trying to get at.

Regards, Graham.

It's not about making noise but about passing an information.

You should have noticed that noise is mainly what we hear from the opposing side, lots of blabla and no refutation of the facts that have been posted. Just in this thread, count the posts that talk directly about the posted code, and count the rest.

But I'm adding to the noise now, so I should stop.



// Christophe

[Graham Banks]

It's not about making noise but about passing an information.

You should have noticed that noise is mainly what we hear from the opposing side, lots of blabla and no refutation of the facts that have been posted. Just in this thread, count the posts that talk directly about the posted code, and count the rest.

But I'm adding to the noise now, so I should stop.



// Christophe

Yeah me too. I've already said more than enough. Have a good weekend Christophe.

[tiger]

I think you should believe more what people who have expertise say... What else?

Who are the most skilled people in the field and what do they say?

It requires a special skill however: being able to discern the experts.



// Christophe

That's the problem. All the programmers think that they're experts and even they can't always agree.

Regards, Graham.

Apparently the author of the code that we think breaks the GPL does not consider himself as an expert. Too bad, we are badly missing his opinion.



// Christophe

[Rolf]

I think you should believe more what people who have expertise say... What else?

Who are the most skilled people in the field and what do they say?

It requires a special skill however: being able to discern the experts.



// Christophe

That's the problem. All the programmers think that they're experts and even they can't always agree.

Regards, Graham.

Apparently the author of the code that we think breaks the GPL does not consider himself as an expert. Too bad, we are badly missing his opinion.



// Christophe

No, he's improving his code. And look into the other message. I would advise you the same. A programmer as policeman looks odd. And the he want's to be jusge too. ...

[bob]

What I said was the court cases often have a nasty way of backfiring. if you could make a million dollars, suing might be an option and perhaps the risk of 1/10th of that in legal fees would be considered an "investment". But it could also represent potential bankruptcy as well if it backfires. And as of right now, I have not seen anything that a legal person would call "actionable" as presenting data to support a hypothesis is hardly going to be considered libel/slander so long as the data is not fabricated, which it does not seem to be here.

[bob]

Note that this is the discussion about Free version of Rybka (Rybka 1.0)

Zach gave me a permission to edit the thread title and and insert "1.0" next to the engine name wherever he mentioned the engine, just to avoid confusion.

I agree with ChrisW that whenever you mention Rybka, It'd help if you include the version number along with it.

I am not personally convinced that it matters. What is the probability that Rybka 3 is vastly different from Rybka2, and R2 vastly different from V1? Most do not do _complete_ rewrites, which means much GPL code, if it was present in R1 will also be present in R3. So this realistically applies to all versions, if it applies to any.

"if it applies to any"......... Extremely clever way you phrase that, when one considers that anyone with one eye and half a brain already knows your true feelings about this whole issue.

So you are also a mind-reader as well? I am, and always have been "anti-clone". Other than that I have little interest in what goes on in computer chess misbehavior. But "clones" and "copying" indirectly affects everyone that is active... But I'd be interested in what you think "I think about the whole issue". I'm only following the GPL discussion and that is an important issue to consider.

But I'd be interested in what you think "I think about the whole issue". Ah, i never thought i would hear those words coming from you. Nice that you added "whole issue" - because what i am referring to has nothing to do with GPL licenses, legality in the computerchess field, or anything so mundane as that. Please lets dont argue about the appropriatness of the word "mundane" here. Each to his own. Past that- it's not a matter of what "I think you think"- but a matter of what "I know you wish".

And what do you believe that to be???

I do really think that a point has been reached where it would be to no one's benefit to carry this further on CCC. I would be more than happy to discuss this with you further in private, if you like. I actually think it would be a good idea, because i have some preconceived ideas about your motives that i think you should have the chance to defend. And everyone deserves that chance.

Best,

I don't mind discussing it in public or private. But let me remind you, Shredder has been better than Crafty. As has Fritz. Hiarcs. Tiger. Rybka. And probably others I have not mentioned that were commercial. At one time Belle was on top of the world, yet Ken and I remained close friends throughout all the battles we fought over the board. Ditto for Slate. And others.

So this is not some sort of "envy" issue if that is what you believe. I want to see factual data, not made up crap. And I do not like programs that are not original works but are claimed to be such. I have never met Vas. Nor any of the authors of the other commercial programs I mentioned. So it would be hard to like or dislike any of them with no personal contact of any kind.

So I have no idea what you "suspect", but I would guess that it is probably wrong.

[GenoM]

Since you are a new name for me, just for me, and I still take you on a high level and ethical grounds would you please comment on what Corbit has reported here, namely that as he showed the analyses to Fabien, he reacted so, that he didnt care.

Which anlyses? Rolf, come down from the Moon, please, you're talking nonsense. Corbit send [probably] source of Strelka to Fabien, not any analyses from this thread.

[GenoM]

3. If Vas copied Fruit, he ought to simply say so. Then he could rewrite every remaining line and be free of the GPL requirements and this would settle down.

Is that really true? I mean, the binaries are out already. Unfortunately, you can't fix retroactively, the binaries. Thus, to fix it would require releasing the source, no?

Which I suspect is the whole motive of what is going on.

The motive perfectly can be 'seeking for truth&justice'. Why deposit any additional assumptions?

[GenoM]

I'm not a programmer and so all this code being produced means little to me.
However, from what I've read, it seems that no matter what is said, there will still be disagreement amongst more knowledgeable people than myself over what constitutes absolute proof of anything untoward.
What I would be interested in is what those like yourself, Bob and Zach are therefore trying to achieve. What exactly is it that you want as the end outcome?

Regards, Graham.

Hyatt, Wegner, Schmidt, Donninger, Cozzie, Theron, Korshunov and other russian programmers are on the same side. Mehrmann and Benitez have had some suspicions too. Who's on the other side, Graham? From these 'more knowledgeable than yourself' people?
Are you expecting God come down and said the ultimate truth?