how far is too far: houdini for sell?

[Adam Hair]

If we apply the same criteria to Ferret, Comet, and...
They were not the only ones that started as a different program and everybody considered them clean.

Dear Miguel,

I don't know Comet, but I do remember Ferret quite well. Can you elaborate on your claim that Ferret started as a different program?
You might remember one of Bruce's first rgc postings about chess programming (I certainly do remember this being posted):
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... c86d?hl=en

Aug 14 1993

I ran some of the "Peasant" pawn endings from "How Computers
Play Chess" through my program, and came across a bug. The
search would fail high when the program discovered it could
win a pawn, so it would modify its aspiration window and try
again. This time it would fail low. It didn't expect this
case, and responded by treating this as a normal fail-low
condition, so it would set the aspiration window up for that
and try yet again, resulting in another fail-high, and so on.
[...]
What am I doing wrong?

You might recognize this as a rather basic problem that only a beginning original author would ever encounter (and many have, maybe you also). Anyone who takes another program as a starting point will most likely never see this bug.

Also Bruce at occasions has been very specific about his program with relation to gnu
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 5f59?hl=en

May 6 1996

I started writing a chess program because I was disgusted by the way that
gnu did this "sort".

I have always interpreted these postings as signals that he was writing his own programs from scratch. Now many years later you come here saying Bruce has been modifying gnu to make Ferret? I'm really surprised by this and I'm interested to know where it comes from.

He started with GNUchess, and rewrote it completely. Nothing wrong with that. I remember clearly that he was really interested in the GNUchess move generator and how he improved it. I do not think my memory is playing me tricks:


Go to page 29 and you will see "Ferret was a derivative of Moreland's open source engine GNU Chess." (that sentence mixed up the name of the author)

Regarding Comet, you can see it in the ICGA website
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/program.php?id=14

Miguel

Here are two descriptions written by Bruce. The second one can be found here : http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 64397a131b
There are more comments in this thread, including Bruce's assertion that he took ideas from many sources but used his own code.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=30003

"Ferret dates from approximately 1990, although serious work didn't start until 1994.

The program is 100% original, although at the time I started I had access to the Gnuchess source code. That code was kind of messy and it was its messy state that inspired me to think that I could do better.

In 1994 I created something that could play a complete game of chess. The program entered Don Beal's uniform-platform tournament later that year (I emailed him a copy of the program), and it scored well. Surprisingly well, since the program had never played a game at tournament time controls before.

In late 1994 I discovered the ICC. Work immediately stopped on the program as I spent many hours using the program to play against other computers, and against strong humans including some grandmasters and other titled players.

During 1994 and 1995, I made the acquaintance of many other chess programmers, and I am indebted to these people, without whom Ferret would still be very weak. Included in this list are Bob Hyatt, Peter McKenzie, Dave Kittinger, John Stanback, Mark Lefler, Martin Zentner, Thorsten Greiner, and Stefan Meyer-Kahlen.

The program played in two ICCA events in 1995, which started a string that has remained unbroken except for the year 2000 event.

Ferret is a "normal" chess program. By that I mean that it uses alpha-beta full-width search, a quiescent search, a transposition hash table, an evaluation function that is called at the tips, and so forth.

It uses null-move forward pruning, and for that I am indebted to Chrilly Donninger, who did not invent this technique, but he made it accessible to the amateur community via an ICCA Journal article (Vol. 16 #3, September 1993).

The program uses numerous common extensions such as check extension, recapture extension, and single-response to check.

It also uses a sort of singular-extension that is loosely based upon the extension of this name that appears in Deep Thought and presumably Deep Blue.

The evaluation function is designed to catch common features without being slow, but it's slow enough that the program isn't particularly fast.

The program uses endgame databases of my own design and construction, but which aren't any better than the Nalimov, Edwards, or Thompson endgame databases. I wrote my own because I didn't want to take advantage of code written by others, since I felt that the program would be less mine if I did so.

The program has a series of special case low-material evaluation functions that it uses when endgame databases are not present, and in some cases when they are.

The program is written 100% in C, and is portable to any platform that runs any Windows-based operating system, including multiprocessor machines."

(by Bruce Moreland, chief programmer)

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 64397a131b

Ferret is a conventional null-move program (R=2, described by Donninger).
Other than null move, I do little pruning and extension tricks that cost a
little here, and save a little there (ideas from Hyatt, a single-response
extension that I deduced from an ad for a commerical program, and a few ideas
that may even be original, if this is still possible). I use a recapture
extension stolen from Hans Berliner via Bob Hyatt.


It's 32-bit, written in C, compiled with MSVC 5.0, and running on anything
that runs Windows '95 or Windows NT.


Quiescent search is constrained by a static exchange evaluator. This is
stolen from Cray Blitz or Belle, can't remember which.


The evaluation is done at the tips, and it has as much stuff in it as I can
include without slowing it down much. It doesn't compute mobility, but it
does try to understand when a piece is good or bad. It uses asymmetrical king
safety routines. Stuff is stolen from Chess 4.5 and GnuChess and everyone
else.


Move generation is done via a move table, a refinement of the technique used
in GnuChess.


It has all of the standard stuff including a hash table (two tables, one is
replace always, and one is replace if deeper or left over from a previous
search, this is stolen from Ken Thompson), a pawn hash table, a king safety
hash table (these last two are stolen from Cray Blitz description), killer
moves (don't know who invented this), history heuristic (Schaeffer), etc.


It has endgame tables that I built myself from a description by David Levy.


I've certainly left some people out. I've gotten ideas from Deep Thought but
offhand I can't remember which ones. I have also gotten a lot of help from
various amateur programmers, and the odd hint from a professional.


Node rate on a P6/200 is between 75K and 225K, >350K in weird cases.


Node rate on a 533mhz Alpha is maybe 150K to 400K, >600K in weird cases.

[Uri Blass]

You're hopeless. You don't give a damn what the ICGA has ruled.
You won't stop defending this idiot until a court decides. You've told me this countless times. You hate Houdini or so you say but continue to test it along with Rybka and you say you're not taking sides, give me a break.

Which programs the ICGA decides to exclude from their tournaments is none of my business. I am not a programmer, so I'm not in a position to question their findings.

Yes, I'd like to see an FSF ruling on Rybka because they are seen as being independent of the computer chess scene. I am hopeful that such a ruling would bring some finality to the issue for those who are still uneasy or unhappy what's happened. After all, look at the mess that our hobby is currently in.

Yes, both Rybka and Houdini (along with a few other "controversial" engines marked as such) are in the CCRL rating lists, so I include them in my testing. I can see how you might perceive this to be my defending Vas, but the group's stance is made clear in the notes at the start of each update report that gets posted.

You may have to accept the ICGA as the FSF may or may not pursue this with diligence and even if they do it might take years.

I can see this dragging well into this decade. I hope not.

I do not have to accept the ICGA

FSF is the only organization that may take legal steps against Vas and I assume innocent unless proven quilty by court and the ICGA is not court.

It is possible that I am going to buy Rybka5(dependent on the playing strength of Rybka5) and
I do not think that I risk something if I buy a new version of rybka.

Even if Rybka is illegal then there is no rule that I am supposed to know it
and even if I know that it is illegal then the question is who is the victim
of my actions.

Fabien does not sell Fruit for years so he does not lose money in case that I buy Rybka.
Bob Hyatt also does not lose money so who is going to lose money from it?

It is not the same as buying a stolen car when if I have it the owner of the car does not have it.

I was thinking that Fabian, or whoever, MIGHT have wanted to do something himself and cannot do it anymore because people are buying Rybka, which takes away anything that he might be able to do. So that Rybka is like part 2 of Fruit, which could only have been got to via part one. And it is Vas who is taking the money and credit for parts one AND 2.
If Fabian or whoever, had no further plans, then maybe it was allright to steal it from him, as he didn't need his innovation anymore.

If so, it IS like stealing a car. It's stealing his innovation. The owner then doesn't have it anymore.

I disagree that Fabien or other could not sell their programs because people were buying rybka.

I was one of the buyers of the commercial version of fruit and I was ready to buy a new version of fruit in case that Fabien could get a significant improvement relative to fruit2.2.1 but unfortunately Fabien found another job and I believe that he earned there more than he could earn in computer chess and more than Vasik so he practically did not lose money.

Uri

[geots]

But this has nothing to do with Robert Houdart. Robert never signed anything that said his program is original. Robert Houdart never played in tournament and took money saying is programs is 100% his own. I understand your problem with Vas.

But your problem Don Quixote even if all you say is true, Robert Houdart did not commit a crime. His product is legal.

If I am wrong, I will ask you give us the name(s) of the person who Robert Houdart stole code from.

And why those person(s) have not made a charge against Robert Houdart.


Bob "Don Quixote" Hyatt tell the CCC community why you are not taking Robert Hourdart to court. Since you have all the goods on him as you claim. You know he has money from Houdini.......so tell us why.

Robert Houdart has REPEATEDLY stated that houdini is 100% original code. Just like Vas. Yet that is false. I DO have a problem with liars. And he is clearly a liar, because he has made provably false statements, REPEATEDLY.

The most likely names are Fabien and Vas. Give everyone time to process the evidence, perhaps you will get what you don't want here...

Then Bob if Fabien or Vas make a claim against Robert Houdart. Then you can start talking about crimes, until that time stop suggesting Robert Houdart is guilty of a crime.

Copying code that is copyrighted IS a crime. You can't use the argument that Robo* is public domain, if IT contains copied code. It would also be an illegal copy that violates copyright.

If you violate copyright law (of which the GPL is a part) then that is a criminal act with potential criminal punishment if it is pursued.

Bob no one has come forward to say there was a copyright violation. You have no standing to make such a claim, and can not. It is not your copyright.

Bob you do have a hard on for Robert Houdart and Houdini, and you need to get over it.

You can not be judge and jury here Bob, Robert Houdart is not subject to ICGA rules.

Mark Young shutup it's a bogus strawman that you keep repeating ad nauseam.

Hello Terry nice to see you again. How are you doing today...better I hope.

BTW You never did tell me what troll freind you could not find in google. Could you tell me what you mean, or did you head clear long enough that you were able to find it in google.

Mark, just reading his useless responses is bad enough, but to reply to them................

[geots]

This is simple professor. You are making a legal claim against Robert Houdart and Houdini. You have no standing anywhere to make such a claim.

The charter does not say you can attack a member here by suggesting they are a criminal because Bob Hyatt thinks he is right.

Again you need to respect the charter. Suggesting someone is a criminal is against the Charter no matter how much you think you are right.


Do not contain personal and/or libelous attacks on others ...Unless Bob thinks he is justified in doing so.

Hello Mark,

I think you need to analyse a little deeper.

An engine is examined and it is found (I am not saying that it is so in the Houdini case or not) to have copied recognisable code from somewhere else.

Precisely what legal claim is being made? It is a technical claim - the engine is a clone/derivative etc. Nothing legal at all.

As for the idea of standing - I am lost here. Several engines have been exposed as clones on Talkchess. What standing in your opinion is required to make such a statement?

That the thing is a clone is a technical assessment. That a law was broken is up to a court to decide. I do not see why you are confusing the two things here.

Saying an engine is a clone or derivative is neither libel nor a personal attack. In fact, keeping the language focussed on the engine and not the person of Robert Houdart is probably as impersonal as one can get.

Later.

I don't care what you call Houdini, but to suggest that Robert Houdart is guilty of a crime. Takes the attack to a new level. This is what Bob Hyatt is suggesting.

The fact is Houdini is a legal product, so why is Bob suggesting if you buy Houdini that you may have commited a crime.

What gives Bob Hyatt the right or (standing) to make such a claim of guilt. Bob is not a officer of a court of law or a judge, Bob is not a plantiff in a case against Robert Houdart. Nor could Bob Hyatt make a charge against Robert Houdart or Houdini in a court of law. Because he does not own the code he is claiming is stole. (Bob Hyatt has no standing)

Fact: No one with standing has made a charge against Robert Houdart or Houdini. If so Roger please give us their name(s).

So why are you letting Bob Hyatt suggest otherwise. By suggesting Robert Houdart is a criminal, not only that. Bob Hyatt suggest customers that bought Houdini 2.0 my be criminals for buying a legal chess product.

Is is not Bob Hyatt who claimed he did not want another Houdini flame war? Roger is not Bob Hyatt fanning the flames with his statements?


This is clearly against the CCC Charter

I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs.

Bob Hyatt...

Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

May not be exactly legal for me to buy Houdini???!!! Receiving stolen merchandise? I had already bought it, and when I read this I immediately bought a second copy and will give to someone who wants a copy, but can't afford it. Robert will get his name and email address when I find someone who isn't afraid of breaking a teeny weeny law every so often.


Alcatraz regards,

gts

[geots]

I thought there was considerable evidence that houdini was a close derivative of rybka. Now it is for sell? Whatever your view of rybka (legal or derivitive), there is 0 doubt about Houdini being unoriginal. sigh.

If only we could see a return of crafty to number 1, or the program of any honest programmer.

Plagiarism rewarded.

Best
J

I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs.

Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

Don't give us the BS about you not having anything against Robert Houdart. It is clear why you took the thread down after Roger said the thread could stay up.

"I don't even KNOW him, so there is no way to like/dislike him".

But you know him well enough to suggest he stole code......

Bob you think he stole code. So you will use your power as moderator to punish him. Even if this means overriding the other moderators .... Yes or No?

Your actions say YES.

First, I didn't override other moderators. You know nothing about the issue. I sent them an email, Roger said he preferred if it remain but be locked, that was done. Any other fiction you'd like to share now???

I see you did not answer the question. You are clearly bias against Robert Houdart and Houdini. To the point you are breaking the CCC charter as a moderator. You are a bias advacate when it comes to Houdini and Robert Houdart. You need to let the other moderators moderate Houdini and Robert Houdart. Since by your own writings you are clearly BIAS.
And causing Houdini flame wars you say you dislike so much by such statements.



3. Do not contain personal and/or libelous attacks on others


"I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs. "

Bob Hyatt wrote:

"Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

I have not broken any charter point as a moderator. I received two complaints. I looked at the beginning of the thread and found a complaint there. I simply moved it aside and sent the other two moderators an email to get their view. Nothing more, nothing less. You need to grow up and stop trying to find conspiracy everywhere. The thread is back. I assume Roger locked it as he wanted to. End of the story.

I do not like or dislike Houdart, don't know him. I certainly do not like his ethical values. He copied robolito and then later claims his code is completely original. Doesn't make me delete his posts, nor follow him around trying to lure him into a discussion so I can ban him. I've not moderated a single post by him, and have had very little communication with him via posts. Your suggestions are nonsense, with absolutely no evidence to back them up. So try again...

As far as my quote goes, it is DEAD right. Houdini contains copied code. Since Vas claimed robo* was based on Rybka 3, Houdini likely contains both fruit code AND original code Vas added. Both of which are clear copyright violations. You don't like that? Tough. It is simply the truth... Sometimes the truth is unpleasant. But it is ALWAYS the truth.

This is simple professor. You are making a legal claim against Robert Houdart and Houdini. You have no standing anywhere to make such a claim.

The charter does not say you can attack a member here by suggesting they are a criminal because Bob Hyatt thinks he is right.

Again you need to respect the charter. Suggesting someone is a criminal is against the Charter no matter how much you think you are right.


Do not contain personal and/or libelous attacks on others ...Unless Bob thinks he is justified in doing so.

I simply state facts. You are EXACTLY in the same boat as the few remaining Rybka fans. Sorry that you don't like FACTS, but fact is, houdini is based on Robolito. Ton of evidence to support that, more coming each day. Learn to live with it, because it is NOT going away...

Bob you don't know what you are talking about. I am no fan of Rybka, ask Mr. Banks

But this has nothing to do with Robert Houdart. Robert never signed anything that said his program is original. Robert Houdart never played in tournament and took money saying is programs is 100% his own. I understand your problem with Vas.

But your problem Don Quixote even if all you say is true, Robert Houdart did not commit a crime. His product is legal.

If I am wrong, I will ask you give us the name(s) of the person who Robert Houdart stole code from.

And why those person(s) have not made a charge against Robert Houdart.


Bob "Don Quixote" Hyatt tell the CCC community why you are not taking Robert Hourdart to court. Since you have all the goods on him as you claim. You know he has money from Houdini.......so tell us why.

Well I am a fan of Rybka as well as Houdini. If Hyatt is critical of it and/or its author- I will immediately buy it. It is then a no-lose proposition.

The "few remaining Rybka fans". He only wishes.

[BubbaTough]

nothing in Crafty would be of any use to someone heading for the top. If he needed help from Crafty, he was screwed from the start.

I have no idea what you guys are arguing about, but this is just not true. I have not looked at the Crafty code for years, but I remember things in both eval and search from back when I did I suspect are superior to the strongest programs even today. I would not be surprised if the same was true of many original programs.

-Sam

Then by what you say, one would think if you removed Critter, Stockfish, Komodo, Strelka, Belka, Robbo, Spike, Spark, Thinker, Toga, etc. etc. etc., then Crafty 32 bit 1CPU might slip into the top 30 or so of freeware engines, albeit near the bottom.

But with the logo you got there, I will agree with what you tell me to.

You don't happen to have any other extras lying around that aren't in any lists, do you?


Best,

George

I don't know what your saying, and what logos have to do with anything. I am author of Hannibal, which is around the same strength as a few of the engines on your list (Spike, Spark, Thinker, Toga) and am just presenting you my technical opinion. Just as an example, I would guess no engine on the list you just gave is as good as Crafty at BOTH static analysis of pawn races, and SMP search. Unfortunately, chess programming is complicated enough that those engines would not necessarily be better by cutting and pasting a piece of crafty associated with those features, nevertheless I suspect Crafty surpasses all those engines in either one area or the other.

Go ahead and call Bob a jerk if you want too, he is pretty thick skinned. It is no skin off my back if you want to list his litany of misdeeds ad-nasuem. I just wanted to correct a common technical misconception: many people seem to think because an engine is significantly worse on a rating list, there is nothing for the big boys to learn from it. In my opinion, this is just wrong (and probably tangential to whatever your original main point was anyway).


-Sam

[geots]

I thought there was considerable evidence that houdini was a close derivative of rybka. Now it is for sell? Whatever your view of rybka (legal or derivitive), there is 0 doubt about Houdini being unoriginal. sigh.

If only we could see a return of crafty to number 1, or the program of any honest programmer.

Plagiarism rewarded.

Best
J

I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs.

Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

Non original is not the same as stolen and
I see no proof that houdini is illegal.

Uri

Uri, I cannot believe there is anyone living and breathing who can come up with more illogical and silly analogies than Hyatt.

He asked you if it was ok to buy "stolen merchandise". But he wasn't even thinking about Houdini when he said that. Of course not. Not a pro at semantics, either.

Every program that he mentions in that vein, if I don't have it loaded- I will within the hour.

[geots]

I thought there was considerable evidence that houdini was a close derivative of rybka. Now it is for sell? Whatever your view of rybka (legal or derivitive), there is 0 doubt about Houdini being unoriginal. sigh.

If only we could see a return of crafty to number 1, or the program of any honest programmer.

Plagiarism rewarded.

Best
J

I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs.

Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

Don't give us the BS about you not having anything against Robert Houdart. It is clear why you took the thread down after Roger said the thread could stay up.

"I don't even KNOW him, so there is no way to like/dislike him".

But you know him well enough to suggest he stole code......

Bob you think he stole code. So you will use your power as moderator to punish him. Even if this means overriding the other moderators .... Yes or No?

Your actions say YES.

From the charter:
Once a member gains access to the message board, he may read all messages and post new or response messages with the proviso that these new or response messages:
........................................................ Are not flagrant commercial exhortations.

It was a logical step to combine the best GUI (Aquarium) with the strongest engine (Houdini), Houdini Aquarium is the result.

As there is no more evidence that Aquarium is “the best GUI” than there is that Pepsi is the best Cola, when either claim is made by the manufacturer, it can be classified in the “flagrant commercial exhortations” category

Houdini Aquarium is available at a (in my opinion) very attractive price,

This is an advertising statement, how else can it be classified, when made by the manufacturer? As such, it also falls within the category of "flagrant commercial exhortations".

I know of no no other hobby in which you can obtain the world's best for so little money.

What he admits to be his opinion is tendentious and when made by the manufacturer of the product, can only be considered to be an advertisement that, once again, falls within the category of “flagrant commercial exhortations”.

Three flagrant exhortations within a 5 sentence announcement. A bit rich.

Roger Brown the moderator had already ruled on the above and said Robert Houdart had not done anything that other programmers has not done on CCC. And the post could stay up.

Roger is moderator only not an advacate against Houdini.

The fact is Bob Hyatt is a strong advacate against houdini and is clearly bias against Houdini and Robert Houdart. So he used his power as moderator to try and punish Robert Houdart. Over the ruling of moderator Roger Brown.....

I note that you don’t dispute my analysis. I am perfectly capable of taking an objective view of Houdart's behaviour and I would also have wanted to remove his thread, on the basis of that analysis. As a mod on CTF, I saw the PM that Hyatt sent to Roger Brown referring to the issue and there was nothing wrong with it. The last time that I looked at page 2 of CCC, the thread in question was back in place, albeit locked.

Perhaps you should take an objective look at your own outpourings over the last 48 hours.

WOW!
Moderators can see PM's?
I was once told that not!

Who cares. If they can't read mine, all they gotta do is ask and I will copy and paste it for them. If they don't like what I say- too bad. I won't say a word behind their back that I won't say to their face. Only reason it's in a pm is so it isn't deleted. I would be more than happy to put it here for the world to see. Am I supposed to be scared of someone?

[geots]

nothing in Crafty would be of any use to someone heading for the top. If he needed help from Crafty, he was screwed from the start.

I have no idea what you guys are arguing about, but this is just not true. I have not looked at the Crafty code for years, but I remember things in both eval and search from back when I did I suspect are superior to the strongest programs even today. I would not be surprised if the same was true of many original programs.

-Sam

Then by what you say, one would think if you removed Critter, Stockfish, Komodo, Strelka, Belka, Robbo, Spike, Spark, Thinker, Toga, etc. etc. etc., then Crafty 32 bit 1CPU might slip into the top 30 or so of freeware engines, albeit near the bottom.

But with the logo you got there, I will agree with what you tell me to.

You don't happen to have any other extras lying around that aren't in any lists, do you?


Best,

George

I don't know what your saying, and what logos have to do with anything. I am author of Hannibal, which is around the same strength as a few of the engines on your list (Spike, Spark, Thinker, Toga) and am just presenting you my technical opinion. Just as an example, I would guess no engine on the list you just gave is as good as Crafty at BOTH static analysis of pawn races, and SMP search. Unfortunately, chess programming is complicated enough that those engines would not necessarily be better by cutting and pasting a piece of crafty associated with those features, nevertheless I suspect Crafty surpasses all those engines in either one area or the other.

Go ahead and call Bob a jerk if you want too, he is pretty thick skinned. It is no skin off my back if you want to list his litany of misdeeds ad-nasuem. I just wanted to correct a common technical misconception: many people seem to think because an engine is significantly worse on a rating list, there is nothing for the big boys to learn from it. In my opinion, this is just wrong (and probably tangential to whatever your original main point was anyway).


-Sam

You and I are talking about 2 entirely different things. The latest Crafty is certainly no slouch- but I doubt you will find any grandmasters using it for analysis. I don't really know who the "big boys" are- but I assume you are either referring to top grandmasters or programmers with engines in the top 10 or so.

You have me at another disadvantage, because I'm not quite sure what "tangential" means. Unless it comes from the word "tangent", then it's a new one for me.

If you or any other programmer has "hit the wall" as they say, I would not think most of them would be as interested in Crafty's static pawn races as they would in how the hell the guy is getting so many elos out of Robbolito. Just like most grandmasters are using Houdini for analysis as we speak. In place of their trusted Fritz- which has always been one of my favs.

I can say for sure I have never called Hyatt a "jerk"- simply because it's a useless term that has no meaning as far as I can tell. In fact, this may be the first thread I have ever used it in.

I have to admit I don't have any use for the way Hyatt uses semantics and deception to try and get out of tight spots- about 100 examples of that are on the Rybka forum. If you want a second opinion on that- ask Miguel Ballicora or Sven Schule.

And BTW, I know you are the author of Hannibal, and I know its exact elo strength in 32bit 1CPU. Strong and impressive piece of work. Logos don't have much to do with anything- tho I like the one you use here, and wondered if you had a few others we have not seen on any of the makers' sights. Excuse me for inquiring.

I am 100% sure that my feelings on the Rybka issue, the Houdini issue, the Robbolito and other ippos issues- mirror exactly the feelings and opinions of Uri Blass, Miguel and Sven.

What I am not too enthused about is when Uri makes the statement that he doesn't see the problem using non-original engines- some may not agree, but they leave it as his choice. When I make the same statement I'm called an idiot and and I'm insane.

And the same ones who accuse me of just following Miguel, Sven, Ed and Chris are the exact same ones who when asked how they know Vas is guilty, say "because Bob Hyatt says so". At the very least it is hypocritical.

But I probably should not have used the phrase "not too enthused", because I really couldn't care less what a group of people- some of who have never even seen a GUI or loaded even 1 engine- think of my opinions.

The biggest difference is that I respect the right of anyone to have any stance they choose on the "copy, clone, took too much" issue. On here, I can have mine, but if it doesn't = theirs- I'm an idiot, a troublemaker, a parasite and insane.

Just pointing out the difference, not that I care or read much of anything into it.

[Terry McCracken]

But this has nothing to do with Robert Houdart. Robert never signed anything that said his program is original. Robert Houdart never played in tournament and took money saying is programs is 100% his own. I understand your problem with Vas.

But your problem Don Quixote even if all you say is true, Robert Houdart did not commit a crime. His product is legal.

If I am wrong, I will ask you give us the name(s) of the person who Robert Houdart stole code from.

And why those person(s) have not made a charge against Robert Houdart.


Bob "Don Quixote" Hyatt tell the CCC community why you are not taking Robert Hourdart to court. Since you have all the goods on him as you claim. You know he has money from Houdini.......so tell us why.

Robert Houdart has REPEATEDLY stated that houdini is 100% original code. Just like Vas. Yet that is false. I DO have a problem with liars. And he is clearly a liar, because he has made provably false statements, REPEATEDLY.

The most likely names are Fabien and Vas. Give everyone time to process the evidence, perhaps you will get what you don't want here...

Then Bob if Fabien or Vas make a claim against Robert Houdart. Then you can start talking about crimes, until that time stop suggesting Robert Houdart is guilty of a crime.

Copying code that is copyrighted IS a crime. You can't use the argument that Robo* is public domain, if IT contains copied code. It would also be an illegal copy that violates copyright.

If you violate copyright law (of which the GPL is a part) then that is a criminal act with potential criminal punishment if it is pursued.

Bob no one has come forward to say there was a copyright violation. You have no standing to make such a claim, and can not. It is not your copyright.

Bob you do have a hard on for Robert Houdart and Houdini, and you need to get over it.

You can not be judge and jury here Bob, Robert Houdart is not subject to ICGA rules.

Let me point out, Rybka versions prior to version 4 used Code from Crafty (rotated bitboard stuff). Are you CERTAIN no versions of robo* nor Houdini copied THAT code when Rybka was RE'ed???

Let me get this straight. Rybka 3, which you have told me 4 times you never looked at, contains code from Crafty. Or did you change your mind for the purposes of this thread? At least we know that would not have helped Vas- nothing in Crafty would be of any use to someone heading for the top. If he needed help from Crafty, he was screwed from the start.

This has been re-hashed as well, you have no knowledge whatsoever if you didn't know this basic fact that R3 contains rotated bitboards.

You know less than nothing attacking Bob this way.