The strongest passer

[lantonov]

[d]r1r1n1k1/3qbppp/1n2p3/p2pP3/1ppP1BNP/5N2/2PQBPP1/R3R1K1 w - - 0 1

Actually, black wins even easier here.

For example: Bg5 Bf8, followed by Na4-c3, and black pushes the a passer forward.

White can do nothing to prevent that.

I can't believe there are engines that do not recognize an easy win for black on the above diagram.

So, quite probably, on the original diagram, black has at least 70-80cps advantage in terms of eval at the root.

Here, SF proposes h5 or Bh6 with about a pawn advantage for white but let's go with the Bg5 line. So, Bg5 Bf8 (SF proposes a4) h5 Na4 (SF proposes b3) h6 Nc3? (SF proposes g6 +1.6) hxg7 with 4.5-5 pawns white advantage.

[Ralph Stoesser]

White would never play c3 if black can reply b3, that would be completely irrational.

As a side note, c3 leads to the famous "pointy chain"! He might wanted to grab that nice attacking bonus (+40cp minimum?) for himself with playing c3. Might be a hint to think again about that static rule...

[lucasart]

White would never play c3 if black can reply b3, that would be completely irrational.

As a side note, c3 leads to the famous "pointy chain"! He might wanted to grab that nice attacking bonus (+40cp minimum?) for himself with playing c3. Might be a hint to think again about that static rule...

lol. you nailed it. the problem with all of Lyudmil's ad-hoc rule is how they interact with each other. when it comes to eval, quantity is not quality.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

[d]r1r1n1k1/3qbppp/1n2p3/p2pP3/1ppP1BNP/5N2/2PQBPP1/R3R1K1 w - - 0 1

Actually, black wins even easier here.

For example: Bg5 Bf8, followed by Na4-c3, and black pushes the a passer forward.

White can do nothing to prevent that.

I can't believe there are engines that do not recognize an easy win for black on the above diagram.

So, quite probably, on the original diagram, black has at least 70-80cps advantage in terms of eval at the root.

Here, SF proposes h5 or Bh6 with about a pawn advantage for white but let's go with the Bg5 line. So, Bg5 Bf8 (SF proposes a4) h5 Na4 (SF proposes b3) h6 Nc3? (SF proposes g6 +1.6) hxg7 with 4.5-5 pawns white advantage.

There are infinite lines.
I am not even certain if sacrificing the bishop or knight is better, but I suppose the bishop sacrifice is stronger.

You give very cooperative lines all the time.

As said, on h6, black simply plays g6 of course, with 1.6 pawns black advantage instead of the 1.6 white advantage SF sees.

[d]r1r1nbk1/3q1p1p/4p1pP/p2pP1B1/nppP2N1/5N2/2PQBPP1/R3R1K1 w - - 0 9

We are here.
Now, I say black wins this easily, no matter what SF might think.

I even do not look at SF scores, or, if I do so, I quickly make a mental calculation, inverting the sign of the score, and then I know with relative certainty who is in the lead.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

[d]r1r1nbk1/3q1p1p/4p1pP/p2pP1B1/nppP2N1/5N2/2PQBPP1/R3R1K1 w - - 0 9

Black plays Nc3, followed by a4-a3-a2 next.
The black knight does not capture the bishop on e2, as SF would like to suggest, but simply stays on c3, controlling b1 and d1 and a2.

Of course, if white plays, Nf6, black captures the knight first, if black plays Bf6 or any other move, black simply continues with the abovementioned plan.

SF will give scores favouring white until the black passer reaches a2, and then suddenly eval will start changing in black's favour.

You might try that yourself.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Another thing that is widely not understood on this forum is that current top engines are extremely strong at tactics, and very weak at positional play at the same time.

They see tactical continuations no human will see whatsoever, and fail to see obvious and good positional moves, most relatively strong humans will see.

So the engine's tactical strength is really monstrous, and that is what helps them perform well, they might win completely lost positions in this way, etc.

But that does not mean top engines play reasonable positional chess.

[lantonov]

[d]r1r1nbk1/3q1p1p/4p1pP/p2pP1B1/nppP2N1/5N2/2PQBPP1/R3R1K1 w - - 0 9

We are here.
Now, I say black wins this easily, no matter what SF might think.

I even do not look at SF scores, or, if I do so, I quickly make a mental calculation, inverting the sign of the score, and then I know with relative certainty who is in the lead.

We are getting closer. I ran SF for a long time on the above position, which appears to be critical because of the divergent opinions. The best move for white is Bf6 without alternative, according to SF. The interesting part is the black response. For a long time (until ply 32) SF thought that this is b3. On ply 33, SF switched to Nc3 (your proposal!) and the score fell from +1.7 to +0.82 in a long series of fail-lows. Played manually Bf6 preserving the hash-table. Nc3 appeared to be stable, so I played it. The white move proposed by SF is Ng5 with a score of +0.62 to +1.08 with a tendency (as of this moment) to increase. Interesting, at least for me - man vs machine in deep chess.

[lantonov]

[d]r1r1nbk1/3q1p1p/4pBpP/p2pP1N1/1ppP2N1/2n5/2PQBPP1/R3R1K1 b - - 3 2

Here is the position after white Ng5. SF evaluates it at about +1 on ply 30 and proposes Nxe2+ for black. Do not agree? Think that a4 is better? On a4 SF is hesitating between Bf1, Bf3, and Bg7 with eval about +1.

In computer language this is a competition between king safety and passed pawns.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

[d]r1r1nbk1/3q1p1p/4pBpP/p2pP1N1/1ppP2N1/2n5/2PQBPP1/R3R1K1 b - - 3 2

Here is the position after white Ng5. SF evaluates it at about +1 on ply 30 and proposes Nxe2+ for black.

I told you not to play Ne2.

Black simply plays a4, and further a3-a2, winning.

White threatens nothing.

Input a4, and then a3, and when the a pawn gets to a2, I would be glad if you again report the score.

[lantonov]

[d]r1r1nbk1/3q1p1p/4pBpP/p2pP1N1/1ppP2N1/2n5/2PQBPP1/R3R1K1 b - - 3 2

Here is the position after white Ng5. SF evaluates it at about +1 on ply 30 and proposes Nxe2+ for black.

I told you not to play Ne2.

Black simply plays a4, and further a3-a2, winning.

White threatens nothing.

Input a4, and then a3, and when the a pawn gets to a2, I would be glad if you again report the score.

Ok, a4 Bf1 a3 (SF proposes Be7) g3 (dumb - LA)

Yahoo! The score fell to +0.24 to +0.42 with tendency to fall further and SF alternates between Bg7 and f3.