Fritzlein wrote:Wow, it's very interesting that everyone disagrees with me here. It really is a money-making (or money-losing) opportunity.

I quite believe all of you that a tiny change in node count can change the entire course of the game. However, I'm not at all convinced by these anecdotal reports that my bet is a money-loser.
To be fair they're not entirely anecdotal.
I don't know all the conditions of Bob's earlier experiments where he pointed this issue out but anybody can repeat the experiment I did recently which I reported here earlier which you may have missed.
I played Fruit v Fruit 100 games at a 'fixed' time of 0.5 secs/move from the starting position with no book. The small time fluctuations quickly caused the move choices to change and it produced 100 unique games.
Now with your expert mathematical brain this may not strike you as too extreme but I think it looks pretty convincing to the layman.
Could you offer your opinion on that experiment?
Fritzlein wrote:The conclusion that you are arriving at is that because a small change in node count can change the results (and often does) that there is no correlation between repeated plays with similar node counts. Has anyone measured the correlation? Are there any statistics on this?
Fair point.
Fritzlein wrote: If there are no statistics, let me ask how good you think you are at distinguishing a coin that lands heads 55% of the time from one that lands heads 45% of the time on the basis of looking at a few flips.
But I would feel more confident after 100 flips of my own and 'hearing' that another respectable source also considered the coin suspect.
Fritzlein wrote:Martin, let me make sure that you are offering me the same bet I am offering you. Crafty is playing against Fruit from the same starting position 201 times at different fixed node counts. From Bob's posted results we know that Fruit scores about 60% against Crafty. However, in my bet I stipulate that I get to look at one of the results first, let's say the middle one of the 201. If Crafty didn't win that one, then no bet. If Crafty did win that one, then I take Crafty to score over 100 points in the other 200 games, and you take Fruit to score over 100 points in the other 200 games. You think that one win is likely to be a fluke in the middle of a sea of losses, whereas I think that one win is likely to be correlated with all the other games. So you think you would win money from me in this way?
"Sea of losses" was un-scientific. "Random selection of wins/draws/losses with approx 60-40 spread to Fruit" would be better wording. One experimental point missed... would you want Fruit to be playing to a fixed 3,000,000 nodes (favours you) or would it's node count match Crafty's (favours me) ?
Fritzlein wrote:Well, I could be wrong, but I am still offering, until someone actually measures how much correlation is there. Maybe Bob would even take a sporting interest in our disagreement and play out our bet in this way: He takes random positions from his set of 3000+ until he finds one that Crafty beats Fruit at a median fixed node count (corresponding to the time control at which Fruit was generally winning 60%). He plays it at the 200 neighboring node counts, and marks down whether Crafty or Fruit won more. Then pick more random positions until there is another one Crafty wins, etc., repeating 100 times. Well, that's 20,000+ games to play, but if I'm right and Crafty won more than 50 of those 100 bets, it would give us some insight into a very fundamental point.
Well that's moving the goalposts slightly as the node counts he's getting in his matches will be WAY bigger than 3,000,000.
I guess I feel less confident about my conviction the smaller the percentage change in node count. And I guess you would feel the reverse? Or perhaps not? Care to comment?
I'm not a mathematician so excuse this if it's a dumb question, but as a mathematician, if I gave you two runs of 201 game results, you could apply some formula to measure the correlation of which you speak. If so, does no correlation imply chaotic behaviour? Or would your formula measure at least some correlation between ANY two completely random, unrelated sets of wins/draws/losses?
Fritzlein wrote:It's just a gut feeling with no mathematical calculation. However, there is no mathematical calculation on the other side either, just anecdotal evidence that changing node counts totally changes playouts, and references to the butterfly effect. Let's get some numbers and see whose intuition is accurate!
Absoutely fair point again.
However, in lieu of such an experiment, can you explain why your 'gut' suggests there will be correlation? (I understand why mine doesn't but I'm not sure I could articulate it very well!)