Hi Sedat,
Little correction:
Rybka 1.0 Beta = Fruit ...
You means Shark = "Fruit"
A big different!
Double moral comes from yourself ...
Because you like Rybka ...
But it's OK ...
The results are allways interesting ...
We can see ... 6-8 places from the most Rating list based on the work Fabien do for us. Later Vas comes with bigger improvements and in this time Naum are around on the level Rybka was. Igorit comes, Norman working on the bad Igorit code, other used the work by Norman and Houdini + 30 others IPPs are available!
Fact is:
This isn't the end of the story!
This is the beginning of the story in the year 2014.
In 2020 you can download 200 derivative engines without a readme file for see anything about the development.
In reality all this is to compare with the good and old development from one engines. From year to year 50-100 Elo more. With the different that today the engines have other names and different programmers are working on the same basics, I am sure put here own ideas. Others decompiled, put again the own ideas ... and so on. Nothing is protect, not in a commercial engine or an open source engine.
LEGO
Modular System
Are the right words.
What we lost is originality!
Which one find out the best working modular System!
A good programmer can do it in a hard work, I am sure!
We can also speak from ...
Fruit 1
Fruit 2 = Rybka
Fruit 3 = Houdini
and so one ...
With other words ...
The first places in a Rating list today is more or less ... one engine!
With the result that the most are testing allways the same in different versions.
Originalty will be lost more and more in the future ... in times before all is much more interesting. Programmers are fighting vs. complete other ideas. All the nice official tournaments we had in the past, we lost each day a bit of that what we create in a hard work. Today programmers with own ideas are fighting the most time vs. the same ideas.
Best
Frank
That is my opinion after all I read in my mails I got from programmers or here in TalkChess other chess fora.
Similarity tests
Moderator: Ras
-
Frank Quisinsky
- Posts: 7042
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- Location: Gutweiler, Germany
- Full name: Frank Quisinsky
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Sedat Canbaz
- Posts: 3018
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:58 am
- Location: Antalya/Turkey
Re: Similarity tests
Hello Frank,
First of all,
I dislike injustices!!! you know me my friend not from yesterday!
Give me please one example where I make problems to others work ?
To be honest,
I like all engines and as far as possible I did not make any double standards to others work!
You know,
We are talking with you about this issue since 5-6 months...
Finely you have own rules I have my own rules...no problem!
In other words,
I am very strict (like Germans) I worked a lot with tourists from Germany
And my rules you know: +55% +100 Elo very simple easy to understand!
And last,
Rybka is not a Fruit ! 48% +400 Elo very easy and simple to understand
If you can not see it...this is not my problem !!))
But what I can see,
Sons of Rybka are average 58% + 50 Elo very easy and simple to understand
If you can not see it...this is not my problem too !!))
And please no more over this issue, please...
Greetings,
Sedat
First of all,
I dislike injustices!!! you know me my friend not from yesterday!
Give me please one example where I make problems to others work ?
To be honest,
I like all engines and as far as possible I did not make any double standards to others work!
You know,
We are talking with you about this issue since 5-6 months...
Finely you have own rules I have my own rules...no problem!
In other words,
I am very strict (like Germans) I worked a lot with tourists from Germany
And my rules you know: +55% +100 Elo very simple easy to understand!
And last,
Rybka is not a Fruit ! 48% +400 Elo very easy and simple to understand
If you can not see it...this is not my problem !!))
But what I can see,
Sons of Rybka are average 58% + 50 Elo very easy and simple to understand
If you can not see it...this is not my problem too !!))
And please no more over this issue, please...
Greetings,
Sedat
-
Frank Quisinsky
- Posts: 7042
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:16 pm
- Location: Gutweiler, Germany
- Full name: Frank Quisinsky
Re: Similarity tests
Hello Sedat,
at first ...
Let us no discuss about not important rules I have or you have. That isn't in my interest. Each rules an other person have is more interesting for me as the own rules. What I have in my brain must not be right. You know, I made a lot of mistakes in the past in things I do for computer chess. So all is a bit more interesting for looking as my own shit I do, that is boring for me ... I do only a bit for fun and added it on my page. Not more no less. To compare own results with results from others is much more interesting for me. I can see more if am looking on the right and left site.
Never I will start a attack against yourself.
I try to start an interesting discussion!
I think we can't solved the problem today with rules of a rating list. And for sure are each work by an programmer important because own ideas are included, not only ideas by others. That isn't the topic.
Maybe my English is to bad.
If you not understand my answers.
Again:
I have nothing again you or your work.
I like what you do all the years and I can see your big heart. That is most important for me, because you are really a computer chess loving person.
In my main interest is more to animate persons we lost in the last years. To animate programmers like Fabien and much others.
If I say to you ...
Your start point is wrong ... Fruit is the start Point ...
You can say to me ... Frank, your start point with Fruit is also wrong you have to go deeper in the past.
What I missed are better information for non programmers in readme files.
Best for you
Sedat
PS:
I am working allways with the same aim.
Animation!
If i animate others I will get it back and have more for my free time to a topic I like. Energy switching ... here you have my work, can I have your work. That is all!
at first ...
Let us no discuss about not important rules I have or you have. That isn't in my interest. Each rules an other person have is more interesting for me as the own rules. What I have in my brain must not be right. You know, I made a lot of mistakes in the past in things I do for computer chess. So all is a bit more interesting for looking as my own shit I do, that is boring for me ... I do only a bit for fun and added it on my page. Not more no less. To compare own results with results from others is much more interesting for me. I can see more if am looking on the right and left site.
Never I will start a attack against yourself.
I try to start an interesting discussion!
I think we can't solved the problem today with rules of a rating list. And for sure are each work by an programmer important because own ideas are included, not only ideas by others. That isn't the topic.
Maybe my English is to bad.
If you not understand my answers.
Again:
I have nothing again you or your work.
I like what you do all the years and I can see your big heart. That is most important for me, because you are really a computer chess loving person.
In my main interest is more to animate persons we lost in the last years. To animate programmers like Fabien and much others.
If I say to you ...
Your start point is wrong ... Fruit is the start Point ...
You can say to me ... Frank, your start point with Fruit is also wrong you have to go deeper in the past.
What I missed are better information for non programmers in readme files.
Best for you
Sedat
PS:
I am working allways with the same aim.
Animation!
If i animate others I will get it back and have more for my free time to a topic I like. Energy switching ... here you have my work, can I have your work. That is all!
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Sedat Canbaz
- Posts: 3018
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:58 am
- Location: Antalya/Turkey
Re: Similarity tests
Hello again Frank,
Thanks a lot for your kind words about me!
Yes...I see and I agree with you regarding Vas studied from Fabien's engine
But we can not say Rybka is a clone...
Please check all clone engines, they are usually same Elo performance!
I will try to explain you once more about my racing pigeons story
(Btw,I assume you never had pigeons, right ? but I had...20 years !)
Believe me,
I see chess engines like racing pigeons! both of them very clever, almost perfect !!
About both white pigeons (Houdini+Rybka),
They can be bloody (not 100% original), but they managed to find home directly from 1000 km
Where other ones could not...really that's means a lot for me my friend !
And I can't kill the most clever pigeons !!! I can't...sorry...
Otherwise I will be out from ComputerChess!
Do you want this from me ?! to leave my hoby ?
Let me say a few notes about you,
You are very good person, and one of my best chess friends !
And your efforts for chess will need:
- not days, not weeks, maybe months to talk what you have done for Compterchess's progress !!
That's why I say: BIG THANKS to you for all !!!
And I am very happy that you are between us!!
Best wishes,
Sedat
Thanks a lot for your kind words about me!
Yes...I see and I agree with you regarding Vas studied from Fabien's engine
But we can not say Rybka is a clone...
Please check all clone engines, they are usually same Elo performance!
I will try to explain you once more about my racing pigeons story
(Btw,I assume you never had pigeons, right ? but I had...20 years !)
Believe me,
I see chess engines like racing pigeons! both of them very clever, almost perfect !!
About both white pigeons (Houdini+Rybka),
They can be bloody (not 100% original), but they managed to find home directly from 1000 km
Where other ones could not...really that's means a lot for me my friend !
And I can't kill the most clever pigeons !!! I can't...sorry...
Otherwise I will be out from ComputerChess!
Do you want this from me ?! to leave my hoby ?
Let me say a few notes about you,
You are very good person, and one of my best chess friends !
And your efforts for chess will need:
- not days, not weeks, maybe months to talk what you have done for Compterchess's progress !!
That's why I say: BIG THANKS to you for all !!!
And I am very happy that you are between us!!
Best wishes,
Sedat
-
Frank Quisinsky
- Posts: 7042
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:16 pm
- Location: Gutweiler, Germany
- Full name: Frank Quisinsky
Re: Similarity tests
Hi Sedat,
have a look in Houdini same with Rybka ...
No other programmer can top the strengths over years.
Have a look in the past ...
On number 1 are engines, completly own develops, like Shredder, Junior, Fritz, Nimzo, Genius for examples.
First version from Houdini was a clone if I am reading what the Thinker programmer, others wrote here. The programmer of Houdini must be very clever with the changes he made, no doubt about it. In case of Rybka is the situation not so clear as we compare it with Houdini. Many persons wrote to that topic but not the programmer of Rybka, means Vas gave us no important information in detail. I think the reason for it is ... Rybka was later as commercial project available and today to say ... yes my main work based on Fruit ... a bit critical.
Furthermore, we must not for 100 times reinvent the wheel. Made no sense but to have the Information about a program ... my engine based on the following works could be help to make the situation better.
Example:
The programmer of Equinox is very very talented. I am absolutely sure about it. Very friendly able to fix a problem directly I give him. I had end of the year a lot of contacts to him. I have nothing against Naum, Equinox, Rybka, Critter and so one. But I will read more about the developments. It's not fair if I am using the work by an other person without to give the information. Not fair to all the programmers, like fairplay.
I lost my interest often if I see anything I know after all my knowledge ... will be backfired. Open letter for around three years by a group of commercial programmers are very bad. You can see the results today more and more.
Stefan Pohl had a good idea ...
He collect the IPPs to an own list.
Derivate and clones in an own list ...
But to many opinions about it are in the brains by computer chess friends.
What is an own work and what is derivative or clone?
Only the programmers can help with a good readme file!
...
And what I am doing in the past is history, not important any longer. Djordje, Jan, Gambit-Soft, Ed Schröder (big fan of the older chess comptuers by Ed for my small wallet in teen times). Different others!
IPON, CEGT, CCRL and the others ... all the different rules ... in each rule are an own ideas and all the ideas must not be bad. You can see it ... with different rules we produced today the same results
I don't like the situation in engine testing today.
Very complicated, in WB times very easy!
You know Carles E. A. Drake ...
Carlos wrote he best comments to his tourneys in WB times ... a very cool guy. I need more coolness I think.
Good night!
Best
Frank
have a look in Houdini same with Rybka ...
No other programmer can top the strengths over years.
Have a look in the past ...
On number 1 are engines, completly own develops, like Shredder, Junior, Fritz, Nimzo, Genius for examples.
First version from Houdini was a clone if I am reading what the Thinker programmer, others wrote here. The programmer of Houdini must be very clever with the changes he made, no doubt about it. In case of Rybka is the situation not so clear as we compare it with Houdini. Many persons wrote to that topic but not the programmer of Rybka, means Vas gave us no important information in detail. I think the reason for it is ... Rybka was later as commercial project available and today to say ... yes my main work based on Fruit ... a bit critical.
Furthermore, we must not for 100 times reinvent the wheel. Made no sense but to have the Information about a program ... my engine based on the following works could be help to make the situation better.
Example:
The programmer of Equinox is very very talented. I am absolutely sure about it. Very friendly able to fix a problem directly I give him. I had end of the year a lot of contacts to him. I have nothing against Naum, Equinox, Rybka, Critter and so one. But I will read more about the developments. It's not fair if I am using the work by an other person without to give the information. Not fair to all the programmers, like fairplay.
I lost my interest often if I see anything I know after all my knowledge ... will be backfired. Open letter for around three years by a group of commercial programmers are very bad. You can see the results today more and more.
Stefan Pohl had a good idea ...
He collect the IPPs to an own list.
Derivate and clones in an own list ...
But to many opinions about it are in the brains by computer chess friends.
What is an own work and what is derivative or clone?
Only the programmers can help with a good readme file!
...
And what I am doing in the past is history, not important any longer. Djordje, Jan, Gambit-Soft, Ed Schröder (big fan of the older chess comptuers by Ed for my small wallet in teen times). Different others!
IPON, CEGT, CCRL and the others ... all the different rules ... in each rule are an own ideas and all the ideas must not be bad. You can see it ... with different rules we produced today the same results
I don't like the situation in engine testing today.
Very complicated, in WB times very easy!
You know Carles E. A. Drake ...
Carlos wrote he best comments to his tourneys in WB times ... a very cool guy. I need more coolness I think.
Good night!
Best
Frank
-
Frank Quisinsky
- Posts: 7042
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:16 pm
- Location: Gutweiler, Germany
- Full name: Frank Quisinsky
Re: Similarity tests
And thanks for the compliments, can give all back to you. You do a lot Sedat and you are one of the most important computer chess people. I hope you will not lost your interest ... clone topics are danger for people with heart for computer chess.
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Adam Hair
- Posts: 3226
- Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:31 pm
- Location: Fuquay-Varina, North Carolina
Re: Similarity tests
Have you confirmed that Ktulu, Chess Tiger, and the other engines are correctly obeying the commands sent to them by the sim tool?Sedat Canbaz wrote:Hello Adam,
One thing more, you helped a lot regarding sim tool, now it's my turn
A little advise about how to run via sim tool, which you could not test
For example Bison, Ktulu, Chess Tiger etc..
You need to include all their files in sim test folder (during sim test process)
And I expect you can test them successfully too!
Hopes this helps too
Sedat
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Uri Blass
- Posts: 10873
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
- Location: Tel-Aviv Israel
Re: Similarity tests
Adam Hair wrote:Have you confirmed that Ktulu, Chess Tiger, and the other engines are correctly obeying the commands sent to them by the sim tool?Sedat Canbaz wrote:Hello Adam,
One thing more, you helped a lot regarding sim tool, now it's my turn
A little advise about how to run via sim tool, which you could not test
For example Bison, Ktulu, Chess Tiger etc..
You need to include all their files in sim test folder (during sim test process)
And I expect you can test them successfully too!
Hopes this helps too
Sedat
If they do not obey the commands then maybe they need different commands.
If it is possible to test them manually then it is also possible to make a tool to do it automatically.
-
Sedat Canbaz
- Posts: 3018
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:58 am
- Location: Antalya/Turkey
Re: Similarity tests
Adam Hair wrote:Have you confirmed that Ktulu, Chess Tiger, and the other engines are correctly obeying the commands sent to them by the sim tool?Sedat Canbaz wrote:Hello Adam,
One thing more, you helped a lot regarding sim tool, now it's my turn
A little advise about how to run via sim tool, which you could not test
For example Bison, Ktulu, Chess Tiger etc..
You need to include all their files in sim test folder (during sim test process)
And I expect you can test them successfully too!
Hopes this helps too
Sedat
During testing the mentioned engines, I could not see any problems...
Btw, have you managed to run them and I wonder what is your results?
-
Sedat Canbaz
- Posts: 3018
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:58 am
- Location: Antalya/Turkey
Re: Similarity tests
Hello Frank,
Thanks again...
Yes...in the past, all the things were very simple, no much clones etc...
But today, the situation is very different!
Really CompterChess is in BIG danger! As we see, a lot of non-original work!
Nowadays it's a fashion to release X engine based mainly on others work!!
About open letter, in my opinion:
It's a black 'shadow' in Computerchess!
Only 'Losers' can write a such funny letter, the real 'Gladiators' should not be in a such list !
And I hope to see another new open letter,
Where this time...all those chess friends will apologize to chess community !!!
For example,
I also studied from you (to be honest I copied:), from your ideas... believe me!)
When I say studied or copied,
I look in your conditions (when I was beginner) during 1997-1998 years
(Btw, still I keep your great rating list (40/10) in of my old CD archives)
And a few years later, I created a similar rating as yours...
So now...if we follow the open letter rules,
Maybe it's time to collect signatures...against me ))??
I mean SedatChess should be banned from ComputerChess too )))
What a joke hehe ??)))
Actually in reality, several times my work is tried to be down by:
-Web Attacks (a few times my site was down) from hackers !
-Attacks over my opening books (started firstly from Harry Schnapp)
And plus many more examples I can give...but this is other stories..
One thing more,
How many programmers are very honest ? I mean they tell us all the true in the ReadMe file ?
Look please Protector...Do you see any info that Protector is studied mainly from Stockfish ?!
Frank,Frank,Frank,
We should not be so naive....
If we follow your rules...many engines should not be as participants in FCT
About my new suggested rules,
I need you...really I need your support...we should be examples for rest new testers!
Otherwise we will make history mistakes...after several years people will smile to us!)
Btw, without to not mention I can't,
Without other ideas...almost nobody can create chess engine!
All those original ideas did not came from Mars !!))
And nobody can be on top by others work !!!
I believe in that...!!!
Hopes helps...
Best,
Sedat
Thanks again...
Yes...in the past, all the things were very simple, no much clones etc...
But today, the situation is very different!
Really CompterChess is in BIG danger! As we see, a lot of non-original work!
Nowadays it's a fashion to release X engine based mainly on others work!!
About open letter, in my opinion:
It's a black 'shadow' in Computerchess!
Only 'Losers' can write a such funny letter, the real 'Gladiators' should not be in a such list !
And I hope to see another new open letter,
Where this time...all those chess friends will apologize to chess community !!!
For example,
I also studied from you (to be honest I copied:), from your ideas... believe me!)
When I say studied or copied,
I look in your conditions (when I was beginner) during 1997-1998 years
(Btw, still I keep your great rating list (40/10) in of my old CD archives)
And a few years later, I created a similar rating as yours...
So now...if we follow the open letter rules,
Maybe it's time to collect signatures...against me ))??
I mean SedatChess should be banned from ComputerChess too )))
What a joke hehe ??)))
Actually in reality, several times my work is tried to be down by:
-Web Attacks (a few times my site was down) from hackers !
-Attacks over my opening books (started firstly from Harry Schnapp)
And plus many more examples I can give...but this is other stories..
One thing more,
How many programmers are very honest ? I mean they tell us all the true in the ReadMe file ?
Look please Protector...Do you see any info that Protector is studied mainly from Stockfish ?!
Frank,Frank,Frank,
We should not be so naive....
If we follow your rules...many engines should not be as participants in FCT
About my new suggested rules,
I need you...really I need your support...we should be examples for rest new testers!
Otherwise we will make history mistakes...after several years people will smile to us!)
Btw, without to not mention I can't,
Without other ideas...almost nobody can create chess engine!
All those original ideas did not came from Mars !!))
And nobody can be on top by others work !!!
I believe in that...!!!
Hopes helps...
Best,
Sedat
Last edited by Sedat Canbaz on Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.