Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:This is completely false. There is no need to have the sources from Rybka to confirm Ippolit/RobboLite are clones.
Nothing more is needed than a compile of either of the clone engines and Rybka loaded in a debugger/disassembler. (And someone who knows what he's doing)
You are absolutely right!
More correctly, he is "theoretically absolutely right". Practically right requires that someone actually be willing to do this task.
Not only that, but given by what some people here seem willing to believe, they won't be convinced until you include an entire explanation why the disassembled code from Rybka matches the source code in Ippolit, at a level they can understand, i.e. explaining assembler, chess program structure and search, etc.
It won't be me!
Last edited by Gian-Carlo Pascutto on Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Titu wrote:
The people who is gonna benefit most are the other commersial program makers. They will be able to close the gap and sell more of their programs.
Except for the hundreds of clones, err I mean new original engines, that will appear that are better or equal to their commercial programs.
It's easier to copy an engine than to find the good ideas and reimplement them completely in a different engine.
Last edited by Gian-Carlo Pascutto on Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't think it is true that there is a tool that will give you C code that you can recompile from Rybka. You can get asm in a debugger and reconstruct it though a hell of a lot of time and effort though.
jwes wrote:
If I actually wanted to do this, I think I would go the other way. I would compile ippolit and see if I could find chunks of the binary that were similar, particularly the evaluation code and the pruning/extension code of the search.
This would be smart yes, and btw, take a look at the move generation also, particularly the ideas in Ippolit which are not in open source bitboard engines.
Titu wrote:
The people who is gonna benefit most are the other commersial program makers. They will be able to close the gap and sell more of their programs.
It's easier to copy an engine than to find the good ideas and reimplement them completely in a different engine.
It's easier, that's true. But if you reimplement an idea in a different engine and it works there as well you most probably have found something that's really valuable (at least for you -- and for the community if you publish the source). All top programs are made up of those ingredients which work in general and not only in one program (nullmove, hash, pv extensions, history pruning and so on).
If you simply copy a strong program without understanding the interaction of its components you get stuck when you try to improve it. Perhaps the top engines will all play 100 points above Rybka3 within one or two years. To get to this level it won't be sufficient to copy Robolito and modify some params. So in the long run the commercial programmers will also benefit from IPP/ROB since they will be able to close the gap and then improve further on (Ethics discussion is a different topic. Look at the doping problem in cycling to see what will happen sooner or later -- hope I'm completely wrong again).
During the Strelka affair, two respected experts asserted that it is not a clone.
Memory... is it a blessing or a curse?
I don't mention it to critizise them; nobody is perfect. I just mean to say that even experts can fail as we have seen in a clone case. Why shouldn't I consider that it's the other way around this time?
Later, experts were very busy trying to prove that (what they obviously were convinced of) Rybka itself is a clone. The big "wow"! Did I miss something or has that fizzled out...
I don't want to go so far to say, if I search for the truth I look at the predominant opinion in CCC, and then I believe the opposite...
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
Not only that, but given by what some people here seem willing to believe, they won't be convinced until you include an entire explanation why the disassembled code from Rybka matches the source code in Ippolit, at a level they can understand, i.e. explaining assembler, chess program structure and search, etc.
You don't have to convince the masses. You can certainly find 5-10 trustworthy and unbiased experts who may *all* claim independently that the match exists. We will believe a 10-0 vote.
Exactly my point....I don't need lectures and lessons in programming so that I can understand the proof that is supposed to be out there....I have enough and more than enough reading my medicine stuff....
I want a committe of trustworthy and independant experts as Gabor pointed out to clear the situation....
A naked statement from one man won't do the trick,that was my point from the very begining....thanks Gabor
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
During the Strelka affair, two respected experts asserted that it is not a clone.
Memory... is it a blessing or a curse?
I don't mention it to critizise them; nobody is perfect. I just mean to say that even experts can fail as we have seen in a clone case. Why shouldn't I consider that it's the other way around this time?
Later, experts were very busy trying to prove that (what they obviously were convinced of) Rybka itself is a clone. The big "wow"! Did I miss something or has that fizzled out...
I don't want to go so far to say, if I search for the truth I look at the predominant opinion in CCC, and then I believe the opposite...
All of this has crossed my mind Mike,but there is no other way....
Back then,when they accused Rybka to be a clone of Fruit and as I don't have the slightest idea about the subject,I kept my mouth shut and enjoyed the discussion which took place....
Now it's a totaly different situation....this is the second time a mighty engine,and this time I mean mighty with big m,is accused to be a clone of Rybka and we have to trust Rybka's author as a bunch of sheeps that they go whereever they tell them to go....no mercy,this time I'm pass....
BTW,in the three cases Vasik kept his silience....
Dr.D
Last edited by Dr.Wael Deeb on Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Exactly my point....I don't need lectures and lessons in programming so that I can understand the proof that is supposed to be out there....I have enough and more than enough reading my medicine stuff....
I want a committe of trustworthy and independant experts as Gabor pointed out to clear the situation....
Dr.D
Agreed. I'd nominate Dann Corbit as one of the experts. He's IMO the most unbiased person who understands codes.
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Exactly my point....I don't need lectures and lessons in programming so that I can understand the proof that is supposed to be out there....I have enough and more than enough reading my medicine stuff....
I want a committe of trustworthy and independant experts as Gabor pointed out to clear the situation....
Dr.D
Agreed. I'd nominate Dann Corbit as one of the experts. He's IMO the most unbiased person who understands codes.
Apart from Dann, Zach and Tord are Ok.
I add to these Christopher Conkie,Robert Hyatt and the co-author of Stockfish....
That's what I meant from the very begining and for this I was kicked,beaten and thrown from the top of a mountain because demanding this means that I've become heretic,arguing the holly status of the religion called Rybka....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
