Evert wrote:pedrox wrote:Of course you can consider Junior as the best engine of the world, he has won the world championship of the ICGA.
But let me think to my that call World Championship a tournament where the best engines do not play is a bad name for the tournament.
What's that got to do with anything?
Mind you - if a tournament is called "the World Championship" and a player decides not to compete in it (for whatever reason), he (she) obviously can't call him (or her) self "the World Champion", meaning "the winner of the World Championship tournament." They might still be the best in the world, of course. These are two separate things.
I have no problem with Sedat organize a tournament between programmers whose engines started from scratch, but I think it's a bad idea to make the tournament specifying that are engines whose code started from scratch as it seems implies that other engines did not.
Doesn't seem like it to me, just that the requirement for entering are "started from scratch", which is by itself a vague term that apparently means something different to each person.
There's a difference between "a free engine tournament", being a tournament between
free engines (with no claim of completeness) and "a tournament between all free engines", which indeed does imply that all others are not "free". Replace "free" by whatever adjective you want.
Still, if you find it's confusing (there's really no objective statement here either way, so fair enough), by all means argue that case. Just don't use bullshit arguments like "engine authors who didn't invent their algorithms themselves did not write their engine from scratch".
This is my opinion, it seems that some people have a problem that others have a different opinion.
Don't know what you're on about. Just saying that I think your definition of "from scratch" is bogus.
Evert, let me say that I am author of two engines, one is DanaSah whose code is open and the other is Caligula. I really am not a programmer and can almost say that I have written programs are counted on the fingers of two hands.
But this does not mean that I have some clear ideas. As an author, I know perfectly that is starting from scratch, I know exactly what is a derivate and what is a clone ( for me change a couple of values in evaluation or search remains a clone), I perfectly know what is an original program (code o ideas) or not, etc.
Clearly you have not understood what I wanted to express in the message that you have responded, perhaps does not help that my knowledge of English is poor. As the author of a chess engine of course what I wrote that was starting from scratch it would be an absurd way of thinking and you're right. I was trying
to be ironic about it.
But there is one thing that I disagree with Sedat or perhaps other authors of other engines , and this is in considering that Movei is not an engine started from scratch.
If Uri copied the names of some variables of TSCP and even the names of some functions and simply copy these variables and thereafter starts his engine , I do not understand why this is not considered today to start an engine from scratch.
If you have access to the open source engine , you look and study it , then what is the difference:
1. Start your engine from scratch but be influenced by the engine do you have studied and make a similar engine and perhaps improving it in some respects. If you study a engine, not only do you end up learning how to run the engine but you end up learning the names of the variables used and the funtions used and this is possibly reflected in the new program
2. Copy some of the studied variables and function names and then build the engine, the code (Uri). The work effort and development is exactly the same.
Of course the end result is the same and the time and method employed is the same. As discussed here does not change the fact if you're doing something that already exists or something completely original and new.
If you consider that Movei is not an engine witch the code starts from scratch, then I have serious doubts that there is a engine that has the honor of that name (today, I do not speak of the pre-Internet and pre-open source engines). I see the message that the Uri copied the names of some variables and some functions name, in his message he not says that the copied code of TSCP.
I particularly think the way to start Uri his engine should not be considered for purposes different from an author who has not studied an engine work but has read a few books on chess programming, web pages, etc and used in his engine the name of variables and ideas that appear here.
Do you think that the steps that you have used to done Jazz are different from Uri to done Movei?
I think that Uri has the right to say if he want his engine is started from scratch.
I hope you now understand my idea and I want to express.
