Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

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Kyodai
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:39 pm

Re: Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

Post by Kyodai »

"In today's round at Baden-Baden, Naiditsch played an incredibly inspired attack in which both the first move and the key next move, can be very tough to find."


Sure - but not so farfetched for human players.
I mean that moves like 1.-Ndf3+ followed by 2.-Qd7
sort of reminds me of the games we played as juniors.

Like wanting something to happen and playing intuitivly -
cannot really calculate everything but surely "there must
be something in this position after Ndf3+..."

Sometimes it worked - sometimes it didn't...

Those were the days we thought having at least something
of Mikhail Tal in our veins.... ;-)
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IGarcia
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:27 pm

Re: Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

Post by IGarcia »

Kyodai wrote:"In today's round at Baden-Baden, Naiditsch played an incredibly inspired attack in which both the first move and the key next move, can be very tough to find."


Sure - but not so farfetched for human players.
I mean that moves like 1.-Ndf3+ followed by 2.-Qd7
sort of reminds me of the games we played as juniors.

Like wanting something to happen and playing intuitivly -
cannot really calculate everything but surely "there must
be something in this position after Ndf3+..."

Sometimes it worked - sometimes it didn't...

Those were the days we thought having at least something
of Mikhail Tal in our veins.... ;-)
Its impossible to conclude the move was best, even the game was won 25 moves later.

Looks more like an intuitive move, from who is confident it will outplay the adversary. Agree with Larsson.

Btw, the game was very nice, thanks for sharing.
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Laskos
Posts: 10948
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:21 pm
Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

Post by Laskos »

Eelco de Groot wrote:
Laskos wrote:Seems that Houdini 3 Tactical Mode sees something

Analysis by Houdini 3 Pro x64:

21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Be2 Rf6 24.Nd5 Rh6 25.f4 Nh3+ 26.Kg2 Nxf4+ 27.Kf3 Rh2 28.Rg1 Qh3 29.Ke3 Bh6 30.Bf3 Nxd5+ 31.Ke2 Nf4+ 32.Bxf4 Bxf4 33.Qxd6 Be6 34.Qe7 Bc4+ 35.Ke1 Qh6 36.Rd1 Qf8 37.Qxf8+ Rxf8 38.b3 Bf7 39.Rd7 Rh3 40.Bg4 Rc3 41.Ne3 Bxe3 42.fxe3 Rxe3+ 43.Kd2 Rxe4 44.Rxb7 a5 45.Bf5 Rf4 46.Bd3 Rf2+ 47.Ke3 Rxa2 48.Rg5 Rh2 49.Rxe5
= (-0.14) Depth: 25/70 00:10:30 4235mN
Considering the eval, it's not very impressive, I would have called it sooner à la Thorsten: "Houdini 3 Tactical Mode is displaying its Fritzy draw evals again, whereas Stockfish is almost as good as CSTAL or Rebel".

I have not actually tried any of the programs mentioned there by my Thorsten impersonation, Rebel, Houdini or Cstal (I don't have a copy, sad to say) but I think this looks like a typical Rebel position. I think it could find it :) Here is Stockfish 2.3.1 (well, the eval is almost pure Stockfish 2.3.1 so I think Stockfish 2.3.1 would also find it)

On an by now almost ancient single thread Athlon AMD processor:

r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/3nP3/2NB2B1/PPN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - -

Engine: Stockfish 2.3.1 'Hybrid, Chessbase Open Source Release candidate 142 :) ' (Athlon 2009 MHz, 256 MB)
by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski

1/01 0:00 +0.28 21...Qf6 22.Nxd4 exd4 (238) 238

2/02 0:00 -0.28 21...Be6 22.Nxd4 exd4 (643) 643

3/05 0:00 -0.56 21...Qf6 22.Nxd4 exd4 23.Nd5 (3.996) 249

4/05 0:00 -0.52 21...Qf6 22.f4 exf4 23.Rxf4 (5.558) 347

5/07 0:00 -0.60 21...Qf6 22.f4 exf4 23.Rxf4 Qe7 (8.526) 532

6/08 0:00 -0.92 21...Qb6 22.Nxd4 Qxd4 23.Kh1 Be6
24.Rc1 (16.844) 526

7/12 0:00 +0.52 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Nxf3+ 23.Kg2 Qf6
24.Rh1 Bg4 25.Ne3 Be6 (27.783) 441

8/19 0:00 0.00 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Nxf3+ 23.Kg2 Nh4+
24.Kh1 Qd7 25.Bxh4 Qh3+ 26.Kg1 Qxh4
27.Ne3 Qg5+ 28.Kh1 Qh6+ 29.Kg2 Qg5+
30.Kh1 (69.649) 493

9/19 0:00 0.00 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Nxf3+ 23.Kg2 Nh4+
24.Kh1 Qd7 25.Bxh4 Qh3+ 26.Kg1 Qxh4
27.Ne3 Qg5+ 28.Kh1 Qh6+ 29.Kg2 Qg5+
30.Kh1 (83.822) 484
.
.
.
.
25/32 2:16 0.00 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Nxf3+ 23.Kg2 Nh4+
24.Kg1 Nf3+ (70.603.696) 517

26/32 3:50 0.00 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Nxf3+ 23.Kg2 Nh4+
24.Kg1 Nf3+ (118.280.821) 513

27/32 5:42 +0.08++ 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Bb5 Qh3
24.Be2 Rf6 25.Bxe5 Rh6 26.Bxg7+ Kxg7
27.Qd4+ Kg8 28.Bc4+ Be6 29.Be2 Nxf3+
30.Bxf3 (173.202.542) 505

27/32 5:47 +0.16++ 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Bb5 Qh3
24.Be2 Rf6 25.Bxe5 Rh6 26.Bxg7+ Kxg7
27.Qd4+ Kg8 28.Bc4+ Be6 29.Be2 Nxf3+
30.Bxf3 Rg6+ (175.528.170) 504

27/44 6:43 +0.28++ 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Bb5 Qh3
24.Be2 Rf6 25.Bxe5 dxe5 26.Qd8+ Rf8
27.Qxg5 h6 28.Qg3 Be6 29.Qxh3 (201.022.994) 498

27/44 6:53 +0.46++ 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Bb5 Qh3
24.Be2 Rf6 25.Bxe5 dxe5 26.Qd8+ Rf8
27.Qxg5 Bf6 28.Qg3 Rg8 29.a3 Rxg3+
30.fxg3 Qxg3+ 31.Kh1 Qh3+ 32.Kg1 Be6
33.f4 exf4 34.Rxf4 Bxc3 (206.155.006) 498

27/48 8:10 +0.73++ 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Ne1 Rf6
24.Qa4 Qf7 25.Qa5 Be6 26.f4 Nh3+
27.Kh1 Nxf4 28.Bxf4 exf4 29.Nf3 Rh6+
30.Nh2 Rh5 31.Qa3 f3 32.Rg1 Be5
33.Nb1 (242.645.562) 495

27/48 8:59 +1.14++ 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Ne1 Rf6
24.b3 Qh3 25.Bc4 Rh6 26.Qxd6 Rxd6
27.Bxe5 (266.574.906) 494

27/49 10:05 +1.75++ 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Ne1 Rf6
24.b3 Qh3 25.Bc4 Rh6 26.Qxd6 Rxd6 (298.884.105) 493

27/59 14:13 +1.65 21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Be2 Rf6
24.Nd5 Rh6 25.f4 Nh3+ 26.Kg2 Nxf4+
27.Kf3 Rh3 28.Nxf4 exf4 29.Kxf4 h5
30.Bxh5 Qe6 31.Ke3 Qh6+ 32.Kd3 Rxh5
33.Rh1 Bh3 34.Ne3 Qh7 (425.247.480) 498

best move: Nd4-f3 time: 14:30.359 min n/s: 498.002 nodes: 425.247.480
Stockfish 2.3.1 after 2 hours on 4 cores seems to not see a decisive advantage, but discovers the line too

Analysis by Stockfish 2.3.1 JA 64bit SSE4.2:

21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Be2 Rf6 24.Nd5 Rh6 25.f4 Nh3+ 26.Kg2 exf4 27.Nd4 fxg3
= (-0.22 --) Depth: 38/76 02:14:32 42020mN
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Albert Silver
Posts: 3026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:57 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Re: Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

Post by Albert Silver »

IGarcia wrote:
Kyodai wrote:"In today's round at Baden-Baden, Naiditsch played an incredibly inspired attack in which both the first move and the key next move, can be very tough to find."

Like wanting something to happen and playing intuitivly -
cannot really calculate everything but surely "there must
be something in this position after Ndf3+..."

Sometimes it worked - sometimes it didn't...

Those were the days we thought having at least something
of Mikhail Tal in our veins.... ;-)
Its impossible to conclude the move was best, even the game was won 25 moves later.

Looks more like an intuitive move, from who is confident it will outplay the adversary. Agree with Larsson.

Btw, the game was very nice, thanks for sharing.
Actually the move was certainly found based on classic attacking principles: cutting off and weakening the king while dividing white's forces. That said, every single one of his moves, from 1...Ndf3+ until gxf4 is approved by the engines as best. Since we know people cannot calculate as well as a machine, it was indeed incredibly inspired.

As to it being best, of course we can conclude it. Easily. The text move leads to a distinct attack, and even a slight edge, whereas the next best move ends the game in a perpetual, and the best move after that is a clear white advantage. So the choices are: black edge and attack, draw, or white advantage. How is that not clear?

Perhaps you mean it is not clearly winning with best play on both sides, which is true, but I never claimed it was.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."
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Dicaste
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:23 pm
Location: Istanbul, TURKEY

Re: Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

Post by Dicaste »

Code: Select all

FEN: r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/3nP3/2NB2B1/PPN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 21 

Rampage v15.2 x64:
  4/17	00:12.337	       3,104	776,000	-0.55	Qb6 Nxd4 Qxd4 Nb5 Qxb2 Nxd6 Bd7 Rc1 Qxa2 Nxb7
  5/17	00:12.341	       4,015	803,000	-0.55	Qb6 Nxd4 Qxd4 Nb5 Qxb2 Nxd6 Bd7 Rc1 Qxa2 Nxb7
  6/17	00:12.348	       6,052	672,000	-0.78	Qb6 Nxd4 Qxd4 Nb5 Qxb2 Nxd6 Be6 Nf5
  6/23	00:12.352	      16,702	795,000	-0.61	Nge6 Nxd4 Nxd4 Nd5 Bd7 Rc1 Qg5
  6/23	00:12.359	      21,411	793,000	-0.35	Ngf3+ gxf3 Nxf3+ Kg2 Qf6 Be2 Bg4 Nd5
  7/23	00:12.761	      30,783	62,000	-0.67	Ngf3+ gxf3 Nxf3+ Kg2 Qg5 Be2 Nd2 Kg1 Nxf1 Bxf1
  7/23	00:12.768	      31,689	63,000	-0.63	Nge6 Nxd4 Nxd4 Nd5 Bd7 Rc1 Rc8 Qh5
  8/23	00:12.782	      33,861	65,000	-0.66	Nge6 Nxd4 Nxd4 Nd5 Bd7 Rc1 Rc8 Qh5 Qa5
  8/23+	00:12.797	      40,546	76,000	-0.55	Qb6
  8/23	00:12.815	      44,958	82,000	-0.50	Qb6 Qc1 Nxc2 Qxc2 Bd7 Bh4 Ne6 Nd5 Qd4
  9/27	00:12.864	     111,291	186,000	-0.57	Nxc2 Qxc2 Ne6 Nd5 Bd7 Qd2 Rc8 Rac1 Qg5 Qxg5 Nxg5
 10/27	00:12.897	     135,603	215,000	-0.61	Nxc2 Qxc2 Ne6 Nd5 Bd7 Qd2 Rc8 Rac1 Qg5 Qxg5 Nxg5 f3 Ne6 Bf2
 11/36-	00:13.251	     475,538	484,000	-0.70	Nxc2 Bxc2
 11/36+	00:13.328	     558,335	526,000	-0.53	Nge6
 11/36	00:13.354	     580,115	534,000	-0.53	Nge6 Nd5 Nxc2 Qxc2 Bd7 Qd2 Rc8 Rac1 Nc5 Bc2 Ne6 Qb4 Bh6
 12/36	00:13.534	     867,278	685,000	-0.49	Nge6 Nd5 Nxc2 Qxc2 Bd7 Qd2 Rc8 Rac1 Nc5 Bc2 Ne6 f3 Rg8 Bf2
 13/36-	00:13.999	   1,509,460	871,000	-0.57	Nge6 Nxd4
 13/39	00:14.622	   3,063,797	1,301,000	-0.49	Nge6 Nd5 Nxc2 Qxc2 Bd7 Qd2 Nc5 Rac1 Rc8 Bc2 Ne6 f3 Rg8 Bf2
 14/39	00:14.891	   3,868,484	1,474,000	-0.51	Nge6 Nd5 Bh6 Nxd4 Nxd4 f4 Rg8 Qe1 exf4 Bxf4 Bxf4 Rxf4 Qg5 Qf2 Nc6 Rf8 Be6 Rxa8 Rxa8
 15/40+	00:15.580	   6,546,624	1,976,000	-0.43	Nge6
 15/40	00:16.119	   8,741,383	2,269,000	-0.55	Nge6 Nxd4 Nxd4 Ne2 Nxe2+ Bxe2 Be6 Rc1 Qd7 Qd3 Rac8 Rxc8 Rxc8 Rd1 Bc4 Qe3 Bxe2 Qxe2 Qe6 b3 Qf6
 16/44	00:17.522	  14,901,935	2,836,000	-0.55	Nge6 Nxd4 Nxd4 Ne2 Nxe2+ Bxe2 Be6 Rc1 Qd7 Qd3 Rac8 Rxc8 Rxc8 Rd1 Bc4 Qe3 Bxe2 Qxe2 Qe6 b3 Qf6
 17/49+	00:20.072	  27,579,870	3,534,000	-0.47	Nge6
 17/49	00:21.247	  32,992,968	3,674,000	-0.51	Nge6 Nxd4 Nxd4 Nb5 Nxb5 Bxb5 Be6 Rc1 Bh6 Rc3 Qb6 Bc4 Bxc4 Rxc4 Rac8 Rxc8 Rxc8 Qe2 Rg8 Bh4 Bg5 Bxg5 Rxg5 Rc1 Kg7
 17/57+	00:28.654	  69,704,850	4,253,000	-0.30	Ngf3+
 14/57	00:28.684	  69,772,871	4,251,000	-0.33	Ngf3+ gxf3 Nxf3+ Kg2 Nh4+ Kh1 Qd7 Ne1 Qh3+ Kg1 Bd7 Bc4 Rf6 Nd5 Rg6 Qb3 Rf8 Ne7 Rg4 Qxb7 Rxg3+ fxg3 Qxg3+ Kh1 Qh3+ Kg1 Qg3+ Kh1
 15/57-	00:28.809	  70,391,913	4,255,000	-0.42	Ngf3+ gxf3
 15/57+	00:29.395	  73,136,740	4,270,000	-0.25	Ndf3+
 15/57	00:29.490	  73,493,677	4,267,000	-0.33	Ndf3+ gxf3 Nxf3+ Kg2 Nh4+ Kh1 Qd7 Ne1 Qh3+ Kg1 Bd7 Bb5 Rxf2 Rxf2 Qxg3+ Ng2 Rf8 Qe2 Rxf2 Qxf2 Nf3+ Kf1 Nh2+ Kg1 Nf3+ Kf1
 16/57+	00:29.621	  74,090,658	4,269,000	-0.25	Ndf3+
 16/57	00:29.698	  74,478,153	4,272,000	-0.33	Ndf3+ gxf3 Nxf3+ Kg2 Nh4+ Kh1 Qd7 Ne1 Qh3+ Kg1 Bd7 Bb5 Rxf2 Rxf2 Qxg3+ Ng2 Rf8 Qe2 Rxf2 Qxf2 Nf3+ Kf1 Nh2+ Kg1 Nf3+ Kf1
 17/57+	00:30.037	  76,219,484	4,289,000	-0.25	Ndf3+
 17/57	00:30.216	  77,170,575	4,299,000	-0.33	Ndf3+ gxf3 Nxf3+ Kg2 Nh4+ Kh1 Qd7 Ne1 Qh3+ Kg1 Bd7 Bb5 Rxf2 Rxf2 Qxg3+ Ng2 Rf8 Qe2 Rxf2 Qxf2 Nf3+ Kf1 Nh2+ Kg1 Nf3+ Kf1
 18/57+	00:31.687	  84,181,874	4,334,000	-0.25	Ndf3+
 18/57	00:32.232	  87,291,641	4,372,000	-0.33	Ndf3+ gxf3 Nxf3+ Kg2 Nh4+ Kh1 Qd7 Ne1 Qh3+ Kg1 Bd7 Bb5 Rxf2 Rxf2 Qxg3+ Ng2 Rf8 Qe2 Rxf2 Qxf2 Nf3+ Kf1 Nh2+ Kg1 Nf3+ Kf1
 19/57+	00:44.378	 150,821,948	4,697,000	-0.25	Ndf3+
 19/57	00:46.014	 159,429,882	4,724,000	-0.33	Ndf3+ gxf3 Nxf3+ Kg2 Nh4+ Kg1 Nf3+ Kg2
 20/57+	00:58.548	 223,490,494	4,829,000	-0.25	Ndf3+
 20/57	00:59.646	 229,529,068	4,844,000	-0.33	Ndf3+ gxf3 Nxf3+ Kg2 Nh4+ Kg1 Nf3+ Kg2
 21/57+	01:28.793	 379,707,886	4,961,000	-0.25	Ndf3+
 21/57	01:34.482	 411,102,398	5,000,000	-0.33	Ndf3+ gxf3 Nxf3+ Kg2 Nh4+ Kg1 Nf3+ Kg2
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zullil
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 am
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

Post by zullil »

Albert Silver wrote:
[d]r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/4P3/2NB1PB1/PPN2P2/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 22

1...Qd7!!
Here's what Stockfish finds in about 2 hours:

Code: Select all

33   +0.00   00:54 392000K  Nxf3+ Kg2 Nh4+ Kg1 Nf3+ Kg2 Nh4+ Kg1 Nf3+ 
34   +0.32   10:04   4585M  Qd7 Be2 Rf6 Nd5 Rh6 f4 Nh3+ Kg2 Nxf4+ Kf3 Rh2 Ke3 
                            Bh6 Kd2 Nxd5+ Ke1 Nf4 Ne3 Rh3 Bxf4 Bxf4 Bg4 Qg7 Bxh3 
                            Bxh3 Qxd6 Qg5 Nd5 Rd8 Qf6+ Qxf6 Nxf6 Bxf1 Kxf1 Rd2 
                            b3 Bg5 Ng4 Kg7 Rc1 Bf4 Rc7+ Kg6 a4 h5 Ne3 Bxe3 fxe3 
                            Rd3 Rxb7 Rxe3 a5 h4 Rxa7 Rxb3 Kg2 Rb4 Kf3 
35   +0.28   19:28   9000M  Qd7 Be2 Rf6 Nd5 Rh6 f4 Nh3+ Kg2 Nxf4+ Kf3 Rh2 Ke3 
                            Bh6 Kd2 Nxd5+ Ke1 Nf4 Ne3 Rh3 Bxf4 Bxf4 Bg4 Qd8 Bxh3 
                            Bxh3 Rh1 Qa5+ Qd2 Qxd2+ Kxd2 Bg2 Kd3 Bxh1 Rxh1 Bxe3 
                            Kxe3 Kg7 Rg1+ Kf6 Rh1 Rh8 Rh6+ Ke7 b3 a5 f3 Kd7 a3 
                            Kc6 a4 Kc5 Ke2 Kc6 Ke3 Kc5 Ke2 Kc6 Ke3 
36   +0.28   21:06   9756M  Qd7 Be2 Rf6 Nd5 Rh6 f4 Nh3+ Kg2 Nxf4+ Kf3 Rh2 Ke3 
                            Bh6 Kd2 Nxd5+ Ke1 Nf4 Ne3 Rh3 Bxf4 Bxf4 Bg4 Qd8 Bxh3 
                            Bxh3 Rh1 Qa5+ Qd2 Qxd2+ Kxd2 Bg2 Kd3 Bxh1 Rxh1 Bxe3 
                            Kxe3 Kg7 Rg1+ Kf6 Rh1 Rh8 Rh6+ Ke7 Ke2 a5 Ke3 a4 Kd3 
37   +0.40   29:41  13713M  Qd7 Be2 Rf6 Nd5 Rh6 f4 Nh3+ Kg2 Nxf4+ Kf3 Rh2 Ke3 
                            Bh6 Kd2 Nxd5+ Ke1 Nf4 Ne3 Rh3 Bxf4 Bxf4 Bg4 Qg7 Bxh3 
                            Bxh3 Qxd6 Qg5 Nd5 Rd8 Qf6+ Qxf6 Nxf6 Bxf1 Kxf1 Rd2 
                            b3 h6 Ke1 Rd4 f3 Rd3 Nd5 Bg5 Kf2 Kg7 Kg3 Kg6 Rh1 h5 
                            Rg1 a5 Rg2 Rd2 Rxd2 Bxd2 
38   +0.28 1:04:46  30586M  Qd7 Be2 Rf6 Nd5 Rh6 f4 Nh3+ Kg2 Nxf4+ Kf3 Rh2 Ke3 
                            Bh6 Kd2 Nxd5+ Ke1 Nf4 Ne3 Rh3 Bxf4 Bxf4 Bg4 Qg7 Bxh3 
                            Bxh3 Qxd6 Qg5 Nd5 Rd8 Qf6+ Qxf6 Nxf6 Bxf1 Kxf1 Rd2 
                            b3 h6 Ke1 Rd4 f3 Rd3 Nd5 Bg5 Kf2 Kg7 Kg3 Kg6 Rh1 Rd2 
                            a4 Rd3 b4 Rd4 Rg1 Rc4 
39   +0.32 1:45:19  50287M  Qd7 Be2 Rf6 Nd5 Rh6 f4 Nh3+ Kg2 Nxf4+ Kf3 Rh2 Ke3 
                            Bh6 Kd2 Nxd5+ Ke1 Nf4 Ne3 Rh3 Bxf4 Bxf4 Bg4 Qd8 Bxh3 
                            Bxh3 Rh1 Qa5+ Qd2 Qxd2+ Kxd2 Bg2 Kd3 Bxh1 Rxh1 Bxe3 
                            Kxe3 Rd8 Rg1 Rc8 Rd1 
40   +0.40 2:11:50  63009M  Qd7 Be2 Rf6 Nd5 Rh6 f4 Nh3+ Kg2 Nxf4+ Kf3 Rh2 Ke3 
                            Bh6 Kd2 Nxd5+ Ke1 Nf4 Ne3 Rh3 Bxf4 Bxf4 Bg4 Qd8 Bxh3 
                            Bxh3 Rh1 Qa5+ Qd2 Qxd2+ Kxd2 Bg2 Kd3 Bxh1 Rxh1 Rf8 
                            Nf5 d5 Ne7 dxe4+ Kxe4 Rf7 Nd5 h6 Rh4 Kg7 Nxf4 Rxf4+ 
                            Rxf4 exf4 Kxf4 Kg6 Kg4 h5+ Kh4 Kh6 b3 Kg6 
Nodes: 101507839711
Nodes/second: 8041911
Best move: Qd7
Ponder move: Be2
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IGarcia
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:27 pm

Re: Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

Post by IGarcia »

Albert Silver wrote: Perhaps you mean it is not clearly winning with best play on both sides, which is true, but I never claimed it was.
yes meant that, best play does not necessary win.

My bad maybe because you tell about "an incredibly inspired attack" witch I took as winning. And its not the case.
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Robert Flesher
Posts: 1290
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

Post by Robert Flesher »

Albert Silver wrote:In today's round at Baden-Baden, Naiditsch played an incredibly inspired attack in which both the first move and the key next move, can be very tough to find.

Move one:

[d]r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/3nP3/2NB2B1/PPN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 21

The first move of the attack is 1...Ndf3+!! Please note that 1...Ngf3+ is no good as engines see it only as a means to a draw. There is no transposition.

1...Ndf3+ 2.gxf3

[d]r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/4P3/2NB1PB1/PPN2P2/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 22

1...Qd7!!

Maybe you should try my Dissident Aggressor settings for Zappa.
It finds this attack almost instantly!

New game
r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/3nP3/2NB2B1/PPN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Zappa Mexico II:

21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Be2 Rf6 24.Nd5 Rh6 25.f4 Nh3+ 26.Kg2 exf4 27.Bxf4 Nxf4+ 28.Nxf4 Qf7 29.Rh1 Qxf4 30.Qd3 Rg6+ 31.Kf1 Bd7 32.Qe3 Rf8 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Rh6 Rxe4 35.Rxg6 hxg6
-/+ (-1.38) Depth: 16/51 00:00:49 156mN
(Doe, 16.02.2013)
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User avatar
Master Om
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:57 am
Location: INDIA

Re: Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

Post by Master Om »

New game
[d]r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/3nP3/2NB2B1/PPN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Zappa Mexico II x64 KA:

21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Ne1 Rf6 24.Qa4 Qf7 25.Qa5 Qh5 26.Nd5 Nh3+ 27.Kh1 Nxf2+ 28.Kg2 Nh3 29.Nxf6 Bxf6
-/+ (-0.90) Depth: 13/38 00:00:05 18362kN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 16.02.2013)

New game
[d]r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/3nP3/2NB2B1/PPN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Critter 1.6a 64-bit KA:

21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Be2 Rf6 24.Nd5 Rh6 25.f4 Nh3+ 26.Kg2 Nxf4+ 27.Kf3 Qg4+ 28.Ke3 Qg5 29.Bxf4 exf4+ 30.Kd2 f3+ 31.Nce3 fxe2 32.Qxe2 Bh3 33.Rg1 Qe5 34.Ke1 Qh2
-/+ (-0.83) Depth: 23/64 00:04:57 3143mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 16.02.2013)

New game
[d]r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/3nP3/2NB2B1/PPN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 3 Dynamic:

21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Nxf3+[] 23.Kg2 Nh4+[] 24.Kg1 Nf3+[] 25.Kg2 Nh4+[] 26.Kg1 Nf3+[] 27.Kg2 Nh4+[] 28.Kg1 Nf3+[] 29.Kg2 Nh4+[] 30.Kg1 Nf3+[] 31.Kg2 Nh4+[] 32.Kg1 Nf3+[] 33.Kg2 Nh4+[] 34.Kg1 Nf3+[] 35.Kg2 Nh4+[] 36.Kg1 Nf3+[]
= (0.00) Depth: 19 00:03:15 47612kN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 16.02.2013)

New game
[d]r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/3nP3/2NB2B1/PPN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Spark-1.0-win64-mp-corei:

21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.Be2 Rf6 24.Nd5 Rh6 25.f4 Nh3+ 26.Kg2 exf4 27.Nd4 Nxf2 28.Kxf2 fxg3+ 29.Ke1 g2 30.Rg1 Qh3 31.Qd3 Qxd3 32.Bxd3 Bxd4 33.Rxg2 Rh1+ 34.Bf1
-+ (-3.33) Depth: 19/48 00:00:17 235mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 16.02.2013)

New game
[d]r1bq1r1k/pp4bp/3p4/4p1n1/3nP3/2NB2B1/PPN2PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 120331P intel x64:

21...Ndf3+ 22.gxf3 Qd7 23.f4 exf4 24.Qh5 Bxc3 25.Qxg5 Bxb2 26.Rab1 fxg3 27.fxg3 Rg8 28.Qxg8+ Kxg8 29.Bc4+ Kg7 30.Rf7+ Qxf7 31.Bxf7 Kxf7 32.Rxb2 b6 33.Nd4 Bb7 34.Re2 Rg8 35.Kf2 Kf6 36.Re1 Ke5
-+ (-2.02) Depth: 22/44 00:00:06 37438kN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 16.02.2013)
Always Expect the Unexpected
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User avatar
Thomas Lagershausen
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:59 pm

Re: Test position: Fridman-Naidistch (2013) - Very hard

Post by Thomas Lagershausen »

King 3.50: (Q6600 2,4 Ghz - 256 MB Hash)

3 00:00 1.827 14.053 -0,36 Sg5-e6 Sc3-d5 Lc8-d7 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4
3 00:00 3.199 24.607 -0,35 Sd4xc2 Ld3xc2 Lc8-e6
4 00:00 6.771 45.140 -0,65 Sd4xc2 Ld3xc2 Lc8-e6 Sc3-d5
4 00:00 7.861 52.406 -0,46 Sg5-e6 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 Sc3-d5
5 00:01 28.067 18.836 -0,40 Sg5-e6 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 Sc3-b5 Sd4-e6
6 00:02 76.443 39.607 -0,60 Sg5-e6 Sc3-d5 Lg7-h6 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 Dd1-h5
6 00:02 89.535 46.152 -0,48 Sd4xc2 Ld3xc2 Lc8-e6 Dd1-d2 Le6-c4 Tf1-d1
7 00:02 212.545 104.188 -0,45 Sd4xc2 Dd1xc2 Lc8-e6 Sc3-d5 Le6xd5 e4xd5 Ta8-c8 Dc2-a4
8 00:02 456.471 206.547 -0,50 Sd4xc2 Dd1xc2 Lc8-e6 Dc2-d2 Ta8-c8 Tf1-e1 Lg7-h6 Ld3-b5
9 00:02 1.045.626 405.281 -0,43 Sd4xc2 Ld3xc2 Lc8-e6 Lc2-b3 Ta8-c8 Tf1-e1 Le6xb3 Dd1xb3 Dd8-d7
10 00:03 2.333.162 700.649 -0,52 Sd4xc2 Ld3xc2 Sg5-e6 Sc3-b5 a7-a6 Sb5xd6 Se6-d4 Sd6-c4 Dd8-e7 Dd1-d2
10 00:04 3.329.141 851.442 -0,43 Sg5-e6 Sc3-d5 Lg7-h6 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 Dd1-h5 Dd8-g5 Dh5-h2 Lc8-e6 Tf1-c1 Le6xd5 e4xd5
11 00:05 6.528.263 1.141.304 -0,39 Sg5-e6 Sc3-d5 Lc8-d7 Ta1-c1 Ta8-c8 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 Dd1-d2 Ld7-c6 Tf1-e1 Tf8-g8
12 00:09 13.474.592 1.387.702 -0,41 Sg5-e6 Sc3-d5 Lg7-h6 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 f2-f4 Tf8-g8 Lg3-f2 Lc8-g4 Dd1-d2 Ta8-c8 Lf2xd4 e5xd4
13 00:19 29.604.491 1.560.595 -0,48 Sg5-e6 Sc3-d5 Lc8-d7 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 Ta1-c1 Ld7-c6 Dd1-h5 Dd8-a5 Ld3-c4 Ta8-c8 Tf1-d1 Lc6xd5 Lc4xd5
13 00:26 42.200.273 1.592.463 -0,41 Sd4xc2 Ld3xc2 Sg5-e6 Sc3-b5 a7-a6 Sb5xd6 Se6-d4 Sd6xc8 Ta8xc8 Lc2-d3 Dd8-b6 Dd1-h5 Db6-f6
14 00:48 78.601.563 1.639.924 -0,47 Sd4xc2 Ld3xc2 Sg5-e6 Sc3-b5 Lc8-d7 Sb5xd6 Se6-d4 Lc2-b3 Dd8-e7 Lb3-d5 Ld7-c6 Ld5xc6 b7xc6 Sd6-c4
14 01:02 103.019.224 1.647.253 -0,41 Sg5-e6 Sc3-d5 Lc8-d7 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 Dd1-h5 Ld7-e6 f2-f4 Dd8-e8 Dh5xe8 Ta8xe8 Sd5-c7 Te8-c8 Sc7xe6 Sd4xe6
15 02:27 240.689.442 1.636.786 -0,36 Sg5-e6 Sc3-d5 Lc8-d7 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 Dd1-h5 Dd8-e8 Dh5-g5 De8-f7 Ta1-c1 Ta8-c8 Tf1-d1 Ld7-e6 Ld3-c4 Df7-d7
16 05:51 585.442.782 1.664.655 -0,36 Sg5-e6 Sc3-d5 Sd4xc2 Dd1xc2 Lg7-h6 Dc2-c3 Tf8-g8 Tf1-d1 Se6-d4 Ld3-f1 a7-a6 a2-a4 Tg8-g7 Lf1-c4 Lc8-g4 Td1xd4 e5xd4 Dc3xd4
17 19:17 1.949.564.526 1.685.308 -0,25 Sg5-e6 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 Sc3-b5 Sd4xb5 Ld3xb5 Lc8-e6 Ta1-c1 Lg7-h6 Tc1-c3 Dd8-e7 Lb5-c4 Ta8-c8 Dd1-d3 Le6xc4 Tc3xc4 De7-e6 Tc4xc8 Tf8xc8
18 46:12 499.170.406 180.055 -0,28 Sg5-e6 Sc2xd4 Se6xd4 Sc3-e2 Lc8-g4 f2-f3 Sd4xe2+ Dd1xe2 Lg4-e6 Ld3-c4 Le6xc4 De2xc4 Dd8-g5 Lg3-e1 Ta8-c8 Dc4-b3 Lg7-h6 Ta1-d1 Dg5-e3+ Db3xe3 Lh6xe3+ Le1-f2 Le3-c5 Lf2xc5 d6xc5
18 1:14:44 499.170.406 180.055 -0,24 Sd4-f3+ g2xf3 Dd8-d7 Sc2-e1 Tf8-f6 Dd1-a4 Dd7-f7 Da4-a5 Lc8-e6 f3-f4 e5xf4 Da5xg5 f4xg3 f2-f4 Tf6-g6 Dg5-h5 Lg7-d4+ Kg1-h1 Ta8-c8 Se1-g2
TL
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