Bob Hyatt says that....

[Anil]

Just Googled to get some history on this: http://www.chessbase.com/newsprint.asp?newsid=1330

[kranium]

the whole thing will happen on the players meeting in Beijing shortly before the big tournament.

Yes, I guess that's the time and location when some people want to crucify Vas and then celebrate their satanic mass. Vas should withdraw from the world championship! Chessmaster (the best selling chess software) and since many years, Fritz (the second best selling chess software) did not require to participate. Rybka doesn't either. After the so called world champion 2008 has been crowned, Rybka will defeat it 60:40 at least, anytime anywhere.

Rolf, you remember Graz 2003. Meanwhile, F.Reul has sold his program to Nintendo, for the Wii console, the currently best selling video console. I guess from all chess programmers, he is currently the one who creates the biggest revenue. That is his silent revenge for the injustice of Graz.

yes, good point...
but they are not going to 'crucify' him...that would be completely unfair, and unwarranted. i don't even think they should him question about it, but i can't control that. everything that has been discussed here was just that - it was debate, public forum 'discussion'. the fact that it became so heated reflects the passion and love that people have for chess.

i for one, can accept the fact that the community believes that a violation has not been conclusively proven. (unless the FSF magically appears and corrects me!). but i also believe there is significant cause for concern, there is simply too much code to ignore, but even then, we're talking about rybka 1.0, 3 years ago, so maybe it's less relevant?
i don't know,

there was some conjecture about subsequent versions, and the connection kinda logically follows. but that's speculation, and i think that everybody saw it as that. in any event, it would good to know the truth.

he has a right to be there,
it's unfortunate that the outcome of the tournament is so certain. it would take a miracle...? (is it even remotely possible that rybka doesn't win?)

[chrisw]

the whole thing will happen on the players meeting in Beijing shortly before the big tournament.

Yes, I guess that's the time and location when some people want to crucify Vas and then celebrate their satanic mass. Vas should withdraw from the world championship! Chessmaster (the best selling chess software) and since many years, Fritz (the second best selling chess software) did not require to participate. Rybka doesn't either. After the so called world champion 2008 has been crowned, Rybka will defeat it 60:40 at least, anytime anywhere.

Rolf, you remember Graz 2003. Meanwhile, F.Reul has sold his program to Nintendo, for the Wii console, the currently best selling video console. I guess from all chess programmers, he is currently the one who creates the biggest revenue. That is his silent revenge for the injustice of Graz.

This is the well known curse of Chris. Any aggravation from the ICCA/ICGA results in some company somewhere going bankrupt, whoops, and the person receiving the aggravation is assured untold future wealth. They should really should learnt by now

Is this LIST program totally innocent?

[chrisw]

the whole thing will happen on the players meeting in Beijing shortly before the big tournament.

Yes, I guess that's the time and location when some people want to crucify Vas and then celebrate their satanic mass. Vas should withdraw from the world championship! Chessmaster (the best selling chess software) and since many years, Fritz (the second best selling chess software) did not require to participate. Rybka doesn't either. After the so called world champion 2008 has been crowned, Rybka will defeat it 60:40 at least, anytime anywhere.

Rolf, you remember Graz 2003. Meanwhile, F.Reul has sold his program to Nintendo, for the Wii console, the currently best selling video console. I guess from all chess programmers, he is currently the one who creates the biggest revenue. That is his silent revenge for the injustice of Graz.

yes, good point...
but they are not going to 'crucify' him...that would be completely unfair, and unwarranted. i don't even think they should him question about it, but i can't control that. everything that has been discussed here was just that - it was debate, public forum 'discussion'. the fact that it became so heated reflects the passion and love that people have for chess.

i for one, can accept the fact that the community believes that a violation has not been conclusively proven. (unless the FSF magically appears and corrects me!). but i also believe there is significant cause for concern, there is simply too much code to ignore, but even then, we're talking about rybka 1.0, 3 years ago, so maybe it's less relevant?
i don't know,

there was some conjecture about subsequent versions, and the connection kinda logically follows. but that's speculation, and i think that everybody saw it as that. in any event, it would good to know the truth.

he has a right to be there,
it's unfortunate that the outcome of the tournament is so certain. it would take a miracle...? (is it even remotely possible that rybka doesn't win?)

I read back somwhere in the threads the hope that Vas was banned for life from all icga tournaments. Who was it who wrote that, or am I imagining it?

[pedrox]

Just Googled to get some history on this: http://www.chessbase.com/newsprint.asp?newsid=1330

Who made the complaint to the ICGA had suspicions that List was a derivative of Crafty?

And which were the evidence?

Pedro

[chrisw]

Just Googled to get some history on this: http://www.chessbase.com/newsprint.asp?newsid=1330

Who made the complaint to the ICGA had suspicions that List was a derivative of Crafty?

And which were the evidence?

Pedro

Reading the article it sounds like kangaroo court.

Someone complains. The bigwigs demand to see the source. The programmer says no, my source is mine and secret. They ban him.

Obviously what went wrong was the pre-decision. To ask for source they need strong evidence already. Otherwise anybody can, in Stasi manner, wreck any competitors tournament for them.

Stinks.

[Mike S.]

I think the people are different, but...

"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." (Karl Marx)

[kranium]

the whole thing will happen on the players meeting in Beijing shortly before the big tournament.

Yes, I guess that's the time and location when some people want to crucify Vas and then celebrate their satanic mass. Vas should withdraw from the world championship! Chessmaster (the best selling chess software) and since many years, Fritz (the second best selling chess software) did not require to participate. Rybka doesn't either. After the so called world champion 2008 has been crowned, Rybka will defeat it 60:40 at least, anytime anywhere.

Rolf, you remember Graz 2003. Meanwhile, F.Reul has sold his program to Nintendo, for the Wii console, the currently best selling video console. I guess from all chess programmers, he is currently the one who creates the biggest revenue. That is his silent revenge for the injustice of Graz.

yes, good point...
but they are not going to 'crucify' him...that would be completely unfair, and unwarranted. i don't even think they should him question about it, but i can't control that. everything that has been discussed here was just that - it was debate, public forum 'discussion'. the fact that it became so heated reflects the passion and love that people have for chess.

i for one, can accept the fact that the community believes that a violation has not been conclusively proven. (unless the FSF magically appears and corrects me!). but i also believe there is significant cause for concern, there is simply too much code to ignore, but even then, we're talking about rybka 1.0, 3 years ago, so maybe it's less relevant?
i don't know,

there was some conjecture about subsequent versions, and the connection kinda logically follows. but that's speculation, and i think that everybody saw it as that. in any event, it would good to know the truth.

he has a right to be there,
it's unfortunate that the outcome of the tournament is so certain. it would take a miracle...? (is it even remotely possible that rybka doesn't win?)

I read back somwhere in the threads the hope that Vas was banned for life from all icga tournaments. Who was it who wrote that, or am I imagining it?

it wasn't me

[Rolf]

the whole thing will happen on the players meeting in Beijing shortly before the big tournament.

Yes, I guess that's the time and location when some people want to crucify Vas and then celebrate their satanic mass. Vas should withdraw from the world championship! Chessmaster (the best selling chess software) and since many years, Fritz (the second best selling chess software) did not require to participate. Rybka doesn't either. After the so called world champion 2008 has been crowned, Rybka will defeat it 60:40 at least, anytime anywhere.

Rolf, you remember Graz 2003. Meanwhile, F.Reul has sold his program to Nintendo, for the Wii console, the currently best selling video console. I guess from all chess programmers, he is currently the one who creates the biggest revenue. That is his silent revenge for the injustice of Graz.

yes, good point...
but they are not going to 'crucify' him...that would be completely unfair, and unwarranted. i don't even think they should him question about it, but i can't control that. everything that has been discussed here was just that - it was debate, public forum 'discussion'. the fact that it became so heated reflects the passion and love that people have for chess.

i for one, can accept the fact that the community believes that a violation has not been conclusively proven. (unless the FSF magically appears and corrects me!). but i also believe there is significant cause for concern, there is simply too much code to ignore, but even then, we're talking about rybka 1.0, 3 years ago, so maybe it's less relevant?
i don't know,

there was some conjecture about subsequent versions, and the connection kinda logically follows. but that's speculation, and i think that everybody saw it as that. in any event, it would good to know the truth.

he has a right to be there,
it's unfortunate that the outcome of the tournament is so certain. it would take a miracle...? (is it even remotely possible that rybka doesn't win?)

Norm, three questions to you, please tolerate such ones for the sake of truth:

- there was a clone affair connected with your person, why are you, a good chess programmer so actively participating actually as if you could be a trustable attorney fighting for the truth - I just dont get it and I have nothing against you personally but please try to give your view on that peoblem.

- Norm, I dont know your education, but anyway you are very smart IMO, so my next question, of course not to programming but what a "debate" is also besides a mere factual exchange. McLuhan said the message is the message. Do you understand what this means?? I ask because I have the strong opinion that the debaters here dont resalise what such a public inquiry can cause even if each one for himself claims honestly that he does only factually discuss a problem. Do you get what I mean?

- If you agree with me that such a debate can lead to consequences that are indipendent of the single participants?

- Why do you personally and in connect with you collaboraters avoid to research Fritz, Junior and such programs but only Rybka? Can that be justified somehow?

I hope that all will tolerate my questions as psychologically justified from a critical standpoint. Of course it's not technically on CC but it's still relevant for your presentation as notable programmer(s).

[chrisw]

...the argument that points how many programs or even all use the same algorythms is irrelevant as much they can be writen in so many different ways. So, he add, the reasonning that programs share lot of stuff, as Fabian said, would be not valid.
Ok. Then, if it is so and surely must be because, after all, Bob Hyatt and none other said that, if really the line of code and how was writen is the core of the issue, then let the attackers of Rybka originality show us specific lines of code that are equal to those from fruit.
Of course I wonder how they will do such a thing as much I presume the Rybka lines of code are not easily accesible.

Wondering regards
fern

What is being done is to take the executable, and run in thru a disassembler which produces the assembly language code the compiler produced when the source was compiled. An experienced programmer can then take that assembly language code and reconstruct the C source code it came from.

inc i => i++; in C for example.

It takes time because the optimizer in the compiler re-orders instructions to make them run as efficiently as possible, so the human reverse-engineer has to undo all of that...

Perhaps you should also point out that when the executable code is compiled from the source in the first place, enormous amounts of information are thrown away, so to re-generate the source from an executable requires creativity and massive amounts of creative guesswork from the reverse engineer. Better to call him reverse creative artist actually.

Your final alleged C source, rehashed from the executable is, shall we say, open to question.

Who tells you the label names, for example? Oh whoops, Reverse creative artist calls them himself, whatever he wants to call them, and so on.

So what's your point? That reverse-engineering cannot be used to prove any breach of copyright because too much depends on the "artist"?



// Christophe

My point is to inform non-programmers that this reverse engineering which is presented as some fine scientific process is in fact a highly creative procedure in which the reverse creative artist is guessing, writing in names and labels which he invents personally, and no way recreates the original code becaause the original code has already had great chunks of its own information totally thrown away and which cannot be reconstituted.

In short, its a bit of a sloppy mess and its output needs to be treated with handful of salt.