a response to anthony Cozzie opinion on rybka

[Rolf]

CCC is not the place to discuss Anthony Cozzie's character.
Some posts have been removed after discussion between the moderators.

Regards, Graham.

Graham, the mods stand beyond criticism with decisions, but they should listen to what some have to say about the underlying topic IMO. I for one didnt see the now removed messages but I want to make a remark on this thread.

If you read carefully the message from "Joseph" you will find a quote from Anthony. And even I as a foreigner can understand that this sort of incomprehensible (for most) humor is in itself a critic. I do hope that with your deletions you didnt delete fairly legal discussion of the statement from Anthony, as it's quoted by "Joseph".

It's self-understood, that not everybody must agree with the opinions in the statement quoted from Cozzie, or do the mods disagree here? So, why deleting the opinions?

Let me add an unwanted IMO opinion. Since nobody really knows what Vas did in RYBKA, some spys are always active and are trying to find out something. And I tell you something, I admire the patience of Vas and that he keeps out of such hanky panky.

[bob]

I think anthony gives a considered and interesting response here, and the response does not look arrogant to me.



http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... t#pid41927

I've never used the term "arrogant" so I do not know what you are replying to...

[bob]

Mr Hyatt,

you complained, that rajlich collected all the knowledge, you and others had to offer and then used it in his new commercial program adding some new techniques, he found himself. why don't you have a look on the rybka 1.0 code and check out, which incredible new techniques he found, that he "hided" from the chess programing community?

according to cozzie, there's nothing like that.

but I guess you will complain again, that he used your new ideas to built the latest rybka. I really wonder, why crafty is 400+ points weaker than rybka?

First, I never complained that any specific person took ideas. I complained that _several_ have asked detailed questions, participated in detailed discussions to learn more, but then ran and hid when they found something that they thought was interesting. I could have "ran and hid" with the rotated bitmap stuff. Perhaps it would have been discovered by someone else and revealed. Perhaps not. But since Slate first started the idea of bitboards (so far as I am concerned his was the first published implementation) I thought it reasonable to release anything that built upon that...

Second, have you looked at Strelka in detail? I haven't and probably won't. Also, who says that Strelka represents what is in Rybka. So far as I have followed in the discussions, that has not been claimed by the author. Rather, he reverse-engineered the early rybka, but then has modified that. So who would think that Strelka == Rybka??? (== means exactly equal to, not approximately equal to).

Finally, Rybka is better than Crafty because Vas has implemented something new and interesting that I have not yet discovered. Nothing more, nothing less.

[bob]

Mr Hyatt,

you complained, that rajlich collected all the knowledge, you and others had to offer and then used it in his new commercial program adding some new techniques, he found himself. why don't you have a look on the rybka 1.0 code and check out, which incredible new techniques he found, that he "hided" from the chess programing community?

according to cozzie, there's nothing like that.

but I guess you will complain again, that he used your new ideas to built the latest rybka. I really wonder, why crafty is 400+ points weaker than rybka?

Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain the circumstances under which you might expect an open source program to be stronger than a closed source commercial program.

That's an issue. And a consideration I thought long and hard about when I decided to make crafty publicly available. I still have enough new ideas to work on that each tournament will see a version of Crafty with something new in it, of course new is not always better, but that's yet another issue.

[Graham Banks]

Graham, the mods stand beyond criticism with decisions, but they should listen to what some have to say about the underlying topic IMO. I for one didnt see the now removed messages but I want to make a remark on this thread.

If you read carefully the message from "Joseph" you will find a quote from Anthony. And even I as a foreigner can understand that this sort of incomprehensible (for most) humor is in itself a critic. I do hope that with your deletions you didnt delete fairly legal discussion of the statement from Anthony, as it's quoted by "Joseph".

It's self-understood, that not everybody must agree with the opinions in the statement quoted from Cozzie, or do the mods disagree here? So, why deleting the opinions?

Let me add an unwanted IMO opinion. Since nobody really knows what Vas did in RYBKA, some spys are always active and are trying to find out something. And I tell you something, I admire the patience of Vas and that he keeps out of such hanky panky.

With all due respect Rolf, if you didn't see the removed posts, there's not much point commenting on the decision.
I repeat that CCC is not the place for character dissections.

Regards, Graham.

[Rolf]

Graham, the mods stand beyond criticism with decisions, but they should listen to what some have to say about the underlying topic IMO. I for one didnt see the now removed messages but I want to make a remark on this thread.

If you read carefully the message from "Joseph" you will find a quote from Anthony. And even I as a foreigner can understand that this sort of incomprehensible (for most) humor is in itself a critic. I do hope that with your deletions you didnt delete fairly legal discussion of the statement from Anthony, as it's quoted by "Joseph".

It's self-understood, that not everybody must agree with the opinions in the statement quoted from Cozzie, or do the mods disagree here? So, why deleting the opinions?

Let me add an unwanted IMO opinion. Since nobody really knows what Vas did in RYBKA, some spys are always active and are trying to find out something. And I tell you something, I admire the patience of Vas and that he keeps out of such hanky panky.

With all due respect Rolf, if you didn't see the removed posts, there's not much point commenting on the decision.
I repeat that CCC is not the place for character dissections.

Regards, Graham.

Please - I didnt tear this into doubts. What I asked you was if you mods didnt realise that what was quoted from Zappa author, is also a bit in direction of character dissection, no? It's a bit a sort of indirectly verbalised putting down. But you are better in this language.

[frosch]

Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain the circumstances under which you might expect an open source program to be stronger than a closed source commercial program.

you imply, that every commercial programmer uses the public code just as he wants. there were and still are some commercial programs, that are weaker than fruit for instance.

if you want to strictly seperate rybka 1.0 and strelka, then one or maybe even Mr. Hyatt could examine the strelka source, but as he already said, he won't do that probably. my conclusion is, that crafty has been just a toy to implement some new stuff for quite a while now and not really an object of improvement.

how do you want to make progess in playing strength, if you don't even test the prog against others and so on. that's of course up to Hyatt, but constantly rallying against the commercial programers, who don't share their new ideas with the comunity is strange.
as Cozzie stated, there isn't even anything "new" in rybka/strelka - so Hyatts has no point at all.

[ozziejoe]

Sorry, Robert, that reply was meant as something general for the thread, not towards you

best
Joseph

[Dann Corbit]

The most interesting thing in Strelka is the material imbalance lookup tables. These come from this:
http://home.comcast.net/~danheisman/Art ... alance.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~danheisman/Art ... _pawns.htm

It is perhaps not surprising that Larry Kaufman is on the Rybka team.

Although Mr. Kaufman published his results a long time ago, I do not think anyone picked up the idea to put this into a chess program until the Rybka author bothered to do it. It is clearly a very, very good idea.

[Dann Corbit]

Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain the circumstances under which you might expect an open source program to be stronger than a closed source commercial program.

you imply, that every commercial programmer uses the public code just as he wants. there were and still are some commercial programs, that are weaker than fruit for instance.

if you want to strictly seperate rybka 1.0 and strelka, then one or maybe even Mr. Hyatt could examine the strelka source, but as he already said, he won't do that probably. my conclusion is, that crafty has been just a toy to implement some new stuff for quite a while now and not really an object of improvement.

how do you want to make progess in playing strength, if you don't even test the prog against others and so on. that's of course up to Hyatt, but constantly rallying against the commercial programers, who don't share their new ideas with the comunity is strange.
as Cozzie stated, there isn't even anything "new" in rybka/strelka - so Hyatts has no point at all.

Crafty has gained a couple hundred Elo recently.
On a large machine with multiple CPUs, crafty is one of the top ten strongest programs in the world {by genre}, without a doubt.

If there is nothing new in Strelka, tell me who the others are who implemented Larry Kaufman's ideas? Answer:zero. Oops. One: Rybka