Return Match for Komodo

Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.

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Jesse Gersenson
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Jesse Gersenson » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:34 am

M ANSARI wrote:I think we have a very similar case here, with very similar trash talk.
Originality is not commonplace in Eastern Europe.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6031
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:51 am

M ANSARI wrote:

It is one thing to do this when you are trying to fool the general population as they don't know much about computer chess ... but to do it on a computer chess forum ... well that just is an insult to human intelligence.

I especially liked the reasoning the neurosurgeon gave when Ivanchuck challenged him to a chess game so that he can prove he knows how to play chess ... "not interesting as it would be child's play". :D

I think we have a very similar case here, with very similar trash talk.
Man, how do you want me to play with an engine that loses in less than 30 moves?

[pgn][Event "Blitz 2m+2s"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.08.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 10.1 64-bit"]
[Black "Lyudmil Tsvetkov, owner"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B31"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[PlyCount "58"]
[EventDate "2016.??.??"]
[TimeControl "120+2"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. e4 {1.23/19 3} c5 {6} 2. Nf3 {1.21/21 9} Nc6 {2} 3. Bb5 {
1.20/20 6} g6 {2} 4. O-O {1.13/19 8} Bg7 {2} 5. Nc3 {1.18/20 4} e5 {2} 6. d3 {
1.15/20 8} Nge7 {3} 7. a3 {1.10/21 9} a5 {2} 8. Bc4 {1.39/22 10} O-O {3} 9. Nb5
{1.34/23 5} d6 {3} 10. a4 {1.37/21 6} h6 {2} 11. c3 {1.34/20 4} Kh7 {3} 12. Be3
{1.44/18 6} f5 {4} 13. Bd2 {1.41/19 5} f4 {3} 14. h3 {1.49/20 8} g5 {2} 15. Qb3
{1.43/19 6} Ng6 {8} 16. Bf7 {1.36/19 6} Qe7 {8} 17. Bd5 {1.23/19 3} h5 {8} 18.
Nh2 {1.45/19 5} g4 {6} 19. hxg4 {1.37/19 12} hxg4 {1} 20. g3 {1.37/20 8} f3 {23
} 21. Na3 {1.27/18 7} Bh6 {133} 22. Be3 {0.43/19 9} Kg7 {20} 23. Bxh6+ {-0.28/
17 6} Kxh6 {2} 24. d4 {-0.53/17 3} Kg7 {285} 25. dxc5 {0.00/17 3} Rh8 {87} 26.
Nb5 {-2.38/18 5} Qg5 {36} 27. Bg8 {-20.72/20 3} Nd8 {64} 28. Bh7 {-29.03/22 1}
Rxh7 {16} 29. Rfd1 {-32.23/22 1} Rxh2 {29} 0-1

[/pgn]

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6031
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:52 am

M ANSARI wrote:

It is one thing to do this when you are trying to fool the general population as they don't know much about computer chess ... but to do it on a computer chess forum ... well that just is an insult to human intelligence.

I especially liked the reasoning the neurosurgeon gave when Ivanchuck challenged him to a chess game so that he can prove he knows how to play chess ... "not interesting as it would be child's play". :D

I think we have a very similar case here, with very similar trash talk.
Man, how do you want me to play with an engine that loses in less than 30 moves?

[pgn][Event "Blitz 2m+2s"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.08.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 10.1 64-bit"]
[Black "Lyudmil Tsvetkov, owner"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B31"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[PlyCount "58"]
[EventDate "2016.??.??"]
[TimeControl "120+2"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. e4 {1.23/19 3} c5 {6} 2. Nf3 {1.21/21 9} Nc6 {2} 3. Bb5 {
1.20/20 6} g6 {2} 4. O-O {1.13/19 8} Bg7 {2} 5. Nc3 {1.18/20 4} e5 {2} 6. d3 {
1.15/20 8} Nge7 {3} 7. a3 {1.10/21 9} a5 {2} 8. Bc4 {1.39/22 10} O-O {3} 9. Nb5
{1.34/23 5} d6 {3} 10. a4 {1.37/21 6} h6 {2} 11. c3 {1.34/20 4} Kh7 {3} 12. Be3
{1.44/18 6} f5 {4} 13. Bd2 {1.41/19 5} f4 {3} 14. h3 {1.49/20 8} g5 {2} 15. Qb3
{1.43/19 6} Ng6 {8} 16. Bf7 {1.36/19 6} Qe7 {8} 17. Bd5 {1.23/19 3} h5 {8} 18.
Nh2 {1.45/19 5} g4 {6} 19. hxg4 {1.37/19 12} hxg4 {1} 20. g3 {1.37/20 8} f3 {23
} 21. Na3 {1.27/18 7} Bh6 {133} 22. Be3 {0.43/19 9} Kg7 {20} 23. Bxh6+ {-0.28/
17 6} Kxh6 {2} 24. d4 {-0.53/17 3} Kg7 {285} 25. dxc5 {0.00/17 3} Rh8 {87} 26.
Nb5 {-2.38/18 5} Qg5 {36} 27. Bg8 {-20.72/20 3} Nd8 {64} 28. Bh7 {-29.03/22 1}
Rxh7 {16} 29. Rfd1 {-32.23/22 1} Rxh2 {29} 0-1

[/pgn]

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6031
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:54 am

M ANSARI wrote:

It is one thing to do this when you are trying to fool the general population as they don't know much about computer chess ... but to do it on a computer chess forum ... well that just is an insult to human intelligence.

I especially liked the reasoning the neurosurgeon gave when Ivanchuck challenged him to a chess game so that he can prove he knows how to play chess ... "not interesting as it would be child's play". :D

I think we have a very similar case here, with very similar trash talk.
Man, how do you want me to play with an engine that loses in less than 30 moves?

[pgn][Event "Blitz 2m+2s"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.08.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 10.1 64-bit"]
[Black "Lyudmil Tsvetkov, owner"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B31"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[PlyCount "58"]
[EventDate "2016.??.??"]
[TimeControl "120+2"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. e4 {1.23/19 3} c5 {6} 2. Nf3 {1.21/21 9} Nc6 {2} 3. Bb5 {
1.20/20 6} g6 {2} 4. O-O {1.13/19 8} Bg7 {2} 5. Nc3 {1.18/20 4} e5 {2} 6. d3 {
1.15/20 8} Nge7 {3} 7. a3 {1.10/21 9} a5 {2} 8. Bc4 {1.39/22 10} O-O {3} 9. Nb5
{1.34/23 5} d6 {3} 10. a4 {1.37/21 6} h6 {2} 11. c3 {1.34/20 4} Kh7 {3} 12. Be3
{1.44/18 6} f5 {4} 13. Bd2 {1.41/19 5} f4 {3} 14. h3 {1.49/20 8} g5 {2} 15. Qb3
{1.43/19 6} Ng6 {8} 16. Bf7 {1.36/19 6} Qe7 {8} 17. Bd5 {1.23/19 3} h5 {8} 18.
Nh2 {1.45/19 5} g4 {6} 19. hxg4 {1.37/19 12} hxg4 {1} 20. g3 {1.37/20 8} f3 {23
} 21. Na3 {1.27/18 7} Bh6 {133} 22. Be3 {0.43/19 9} Kg7 {20} 23. Bxh6+ {-0.28/
17 6} Kxh6 {2} 24. d4 {-0.53/17 3} Kg7 {285} 25. dxc5 {0.00/17 3} Rh8 {87} 26.
Nb5 {-2.38/18 5} Qg5 {36} 27. Bg8 {-20.72/20 3} Nd8 {64} 28. Bh7 {-29.03/22 1}
Rxh7 {16} 29. Rfd1 {-32.23/22 1} Rxh2 {29} 0-1

[/pgn]

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6031
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:55 am

M ANSARI wrote:

It is one thing to do this when you are trying to fool the general population as they don't know much about computer chess ... but to do it on a computer chess forum ... well that just is an insult to human intelligence.

I especially liked the reasoning the neurosurgeon gave when Ivanchuck challenged him to a chess game so that he can prove he knows how to play chess ... "not interesting as it would be child's play". :D

I think we have a very similar case here, with very similar trash talk.
Man, how do you want me to play with an engine that loses in less than 30 moves?

[pgn][Event "Blitz 2m+2s"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.08.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 10.1 64-bit"]
[Black "Lyudmil Tsvetkov, owner"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B31"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[PlyCount "58"]
[EventDate "2016.??.??"]
[TimeControl "120+2"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. e4 {1.23/19 3} c5 {6} 2. Nf3 {1.21/21 9} Nc6 {2} 3. Bb5 {
1.20/20 6} g6 {2} 4. O-O {1.13/19 8} Bg7 {2} 5. Nc3 {1.18/20 4} e5 {2} 6. d3 {
1.15/20 8} Nge7 {3} 7. a3 {1.10/21 9} a5 {2} 8. Bc4 {1.39/22 10} O-O {3} 9. Nb5
{1.34/23 5} d6 {3} 10. a4 {1.37/21 6} h6 {2} 11. c3 {1.34/20 4} Kh7 {3} 12. Be3
{1.44/18 6} f5 {4} 13. Bd2 {1.41/19 5} f4 {3} 14. h3 {1.49/20 8} g5 {2} 15. Qb3
{1.43/19 6} Ng6 {8} 16. Bf7 {1.36/19 6} Qe7 {8} 17. Bd5 {1.23/19 3} h5 {8} 18.
Nh2 {1.45/19 5} g4 {6} 19. hxg4 {1.37/19 12} hxg4 {1} 20. g3 {1.37/20 8} f3 {23
} 21. Na3 {1.27/18 7} Bh6 {133} 22. Be3 {0.43/19 9} Kg7 {20} 23. Bxh6+ {-0.28/
17 6} Kxh6 {2} 24. d4 {-0.53/17 3} Kg7 {285} 25. dxc5 {0.00/17 3} Rh8 {87} 26.
Nb5 {-2.38/18 5} Qg5 {36} 27. Bg8 {-20.72/20 3} Nd8 {64} 28. Bh7 {-29.03/22 1}
Rxh7 {16} 29. Rfd1 {-32.23/22 1} Rxh2 {29} 0-1

[/pgn]

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6031
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:57 am

M ANSARI wrote:

It is one thing to do this when you are trying to fool the general population as they don't know much about computer chess ... but to do it on a computer chess forum ... well that just is an insult to human intelligence.

I especially liked the reasoning the neurosurgeon gave when Ivanchuck challenged him to a chess game so that he can prove he knows how to play chess ... "not interesting as it would be child's play". :D

I think we have a very similar case here, with very similar trash talk.
Man, how do you want me to play with an engine that loses in less than 30 moves?

[pgn][Event "Blitz 2m+2s"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.08.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 10.1 64-bit"]
[Black "Lyudmil Tsvetkov, owner"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B31"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[PlyCount "58"]
[EventDate "2016.??.??"]
[TimeControl "120+2"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. e4 {1.23/19 3} c5 {6} 2. Nf3 {1.21/21 9} Nc6 {2} 3. Bb5 {
1.20/20 6} g6 {2} 4. O-O {1.13/19 8} Bg7 {2} 5. Nc3 {1.18/20 4} e5 {2} 6. d3 {
1.15/20 8} Nge7 {3} 7. a3 {1.10/21 9} a5 {2} 8. Bc4 {1.39/22 10} O-O {3} 9. Nb5
{1.34/23 5} d6 {3} 10. a4 {1.37/21 6} h6 {2} 11. c3 {1.34/20 4} Kh7 {3} 12. Be3
{1.44/18 6} f5 {4} 13. Bd2 {1.41/19 5} f4 {3} 14. h3 {1.49/20 8} g5 {2} 15. Qb3
{1.43/19 6} Ng6 {8} 16. Bf7 {1.36/19 6} Qe7 {8} 17. Bd5 {1.23/19 3} h5 {8} 18.
Nh2 {1.45/19 5} g4 {6} 19. hxg4 {1.37/19 12} hxg4 {1} 20. g3 {1.37/20 8} f3 {23
} 21. Na3 {1.27/18 7} Bh6 {133} 22. Be3 {0.43/19 9} Kg7 {20} 23. Bxh6+ {-0.28/
17 6} Kxh6 {2} 24. d4 {-0.53/17 3} Kg7 {285} 25. dxc5 {0.00/17 3} Rh8 {87} 26.
Nb5 {-2.38/18 5} Qg5 {36} 27. Bg8 {-20.72/20 3} Nd8 {64} 28. Bh7 {-29.03/22 1}
Rxh7 {16} 29. Rfd1 {-32.23/22 1} Rxh2 {29} 0-1

[/pgn]

User avatar
George
Posts: 682
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:44 pm

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by George » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:02 pm

lkaufman wrote:
George wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:[

Ok, my I7 laptop which is nearly 2 years old gets about 4100 knps, so that's another handicap. Still, even with five to one time odds, no ponder, White every game, no opening book, and slow hardware you did well to get some points with equal material. Maybe it's not too hard to make draws with White under these conditions if you pick the right openings, I haven't really researched this question.
Larry, come on.
At 2' + 2'' vs 10'+ 10'', 5-fold time handicap, I already scored a single win, and drew 3 or 4 out of 10 games.
In those conditions, it's a 2800-2900 human performance.
Well, just by math, you are right, and this should be impossible. However we already know from the games posted by the player using the handle "father" that with enough trial and error, you can find openings that will result in a sufficiently locked position to get draws sometimes. In the present case, I'm inclined to believe that he has tried out enough openings to find the ones that Komodo (without a book and little time) will permit to reach closed positions, where it is easy enough to draw. Maybe I'm gullible, but I tend to believe people until I have a strong enough reason not to do so. If I ever have the time, I may try to find out myself whether I can find openings that allow me to close the position enough to make draws against a bookless Komodo playing Black.
"Father"'s draw rate is below 5% IIRC, and he often posts won games on time (lag) from lost, but pretty locked positions, which resolve with 50 move rule or Contempt. I don't remember any single clear win of him in all these years. He still overperforms his rating, but by 200-300 ELO points, not 800. And the win claim... I would be surprised to see even Carlsen or Nakamura in these conditions getting a single win in a short match.
If they just played ten games after getting the program, then I agree with you. But if they can try out a hundred different openings first to see which ones Komodo misplays badly, then it's a different story. MP unpredictibility might save Komodo, but maybe not. I remember one private game GM Lenderman played against Komodo at my home under similar conditions; Komodo made a serious opening error about move 5 after which there was almost no chance of a Black win, although Komodo did hold the draw.
It would be also interesting to play 10 Chess960 games versus GM Nakamura with no piece 6's handicap he will accept a time handicap of At 2' + 2'' vs 6'+'. I spoke with him a week ago since he is my long time friend since we used to play when hw was only 9 years old back in MA.

PS: This will be a great chance to promote Komodo, since GM Nakamura was the last Chess960 Champion since the tournament was stopped and no longer promoted at Aegon.
At chess960 the time handicap needed would be much greater than for normal chess, since the human has no prep to rely on. Maybe 90' + 3" vs 3' + 1" vs. Nakamura would be reasonable, although Kai will surely tell us that even that greatly favors Komodo. Of course we would be glad to play such a match if it doesn't cost us too much.
How much would you send me ( in the thousands) if I post a game that he sent me at time control 2' + 2'' vs 6'+6' playing versus Stockfish where Knockout as I call him trash the engine. He explained to me that even if Stockfish can calculate way deeper than him, he feel comfortable that there are NOT too many Openings recorded in databases to prepare for all the positions in Chess960 and the different variations that can derive from so many different positions once a different move is played which does not look too promising for the engine but it is still playable and sound. Also at that time handicap the engine can NOT possibly come up with best move since time does NOT allows it.

PS: He told me NOT to post or show this game to anybody and see if he can receive a reasonable amount of money to challenge Komodo at that handicap time control.
Last edited by George on Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6031
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:08 pm

A plea to the admins: please delete the 4 double posts: I am trying to do that, but unable to due to some strange forum behaviour. The 5 posts were also due to the same strange forum software behaviour, when I had to write 5 times, before it accepted the input, and then simply replicated the post.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Jesse Gersenson
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Jesse Gersenson » Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:14 pm

George wrote: How much would you send me ( in the thousands) if I post a game that he sent me at time control 2' + 2'' vs 6'+6' playing versus Stockfish where Knockout as I call him trash the engine.
Zero thousand.

Uri Blass
Posts: 7993
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:03 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
M ANSARI wrote:

It is one thing to do this when you are trying to fool the general population as they don't know much about computer chess ... but to do it on a computer chess forum ... well that just is an insult to human intelligence.

I especially liked the reasoning the neurosurgeon gave when Ivanchuck challenged him to a chess game so that he can prove he knows how to play chess ... "not interesting as it would be child's play". :D

I think we have a very similar case here, with very similar trash talk.
Man, how do you want me to play with an engine that loses in less than 30 moves?

[pgn][Event "Blitz 2m+2s"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.08.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 10.1 64-bit"]
[Black "Lyudmil Tsvetkov, owner"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B31"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[PlyCount "58"]
[EventDate "2016.??.??"]
[TimeControl "120+2"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. e4 {1.23/19 3} c5 {6} 2. Nf3 {1.21/21 9} Nc6 {2} 3. Bb5 {
1.20/20 6} g6 {2} 4. O-O {1.13/19 8} Bg7 {2} 5. Nc3 {1.18/20 4} e5 {2} 6. d3 {
1.15/20 8} Nge7 {3} 7. a3 {1.10/21 9} a5 {2} 8. Bc4 {1.39/22 10} O-O {3} 9. Nb5
{1.34/23 5} d6 {3} 10. a4 {1.37/21 6} h6 {2} 11. c3 {1.34/20 4} Kh7 {3} 12. Be3
{1.44/18 6} f5 {4} 13. Bd2 {1.41/19 5} f4 {3} 14. h3 {1.49/20 8} g5 {2} 15. Qb3
{1.43/19 6} Ng6 {8} 16. Bf7 {1.36/19 6} Qe7 {8} 17. Bd5 {1.23/19 3} h5 {8} 18.
Nh2 {1.45/19 5} g4 {6} 19. hxg4 {1.37/19 12} hxg4 {1} 20. g3 {1.37/20 8} f3 {23
} 21. Na3 {1.27/18 7} Bh6 {133} 22. Be3 {0.43/19 9} Kg7 {20} 23. Bxh6+ {-0.28/
17 6} Kxh6 {2} 24. d4 {-0.53/17 3} Kg7 {285} 25. dxc5 {0.00/17 3} Rh8 {87} 26.
Nb5 {-2.38/18 5} Qg5 {36} 27. Bg8 {-20.72/20 3} Nd8 {64} 28. Bh7 {-29.03/22 1}
Rxh7 {16} 29. Rfd1 {-32.23/22 1} Rxh2 {29} 0-1

[/pgn]

People simply asked you to take on Komodo10 in controlled conditions, where cheating is not possible.

The fact that it is possible to beat Komodo in less than 30 moves maybe in 1 game out of 1000 and maybe with some help during the game does not prove that humans can do it in controlled conditions.

You claim that you can do what people believe no human can do so
people want to see if you can beat Komodo in controlled conditions.

No need to wait for Komodo to be 300 elo stronger and people want to see if you can do it against Komodo of today in controlled conditions.

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