10 years of Computer Chess

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Laskos
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Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:21 pm

10 years of Computer Chess

Post by Laskos » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:26 am

The beast of the early 2003, undisputed SSDF leader, undisputed Playchess Engine Room favorite Shredder 7.04 stands up against the current leader:

Image

A game

Code: Select all

[Event "10 years"]
[Site "PC"]
[Date "2012.11.08"]
[Round "75"]
[White "Houdini 3 Pro x64"]
[Black "Shredder 7.04"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B90"]
[Annotator "0.40;0.47"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[TimeControl "1+1"]

{W=13.2 plies; 1,
077kN/s; Perfect2012t.ctg  B=9.2 plies; 535kN/s; Perfect2012t.ctg} 1. e4 {B 0}
c5 {B 0} 2. Nf3 {B 0} d6 {B 0} 3. d4 {B 0} cxd4 {B 0} 4. Nxd4 {B 0} Nf6 {B 0}
5. Nc3 {B 0} a6 {B 0} 6. Be3 {B 0} e5 {B 0 Both last book move} 7. Nf3 {0.40/
15 2} Be7 {0.47/10 1 (Nc6)} 8. Bc4 {0.23/15 6 (Be2)} O-O {0.37/10 2 (Be6)} 9.
Qd3 {0.34/15 3 (0-0)} Nc6 {0.40/9 1 (Be6)} 10. a3 {0.33/14 1 (0-0)} Bg4 {0.29/
8 1} 11. h3 {0.52/14 2} Bxf3 {0.33/9 1 (Be6)} 12. gxf3 {0.47/13 0} b5 {0.44/10
1} 13. Ba2 {0.46/15 2} Qd7 {0.33/9 1 (Nd7)} 14. Rg1 {0.68/14 1 (0-0-0)} Qxh3 {
0.40/8 1} 15. O-O-O {0.61/16 1} b4 {0.67/8 2 (g6)} 16. Nd5 {1.84/13 2} Nxd5 {
1.16/9 2 (bxa3)} 17. exd5 {3.21/11 0} b3 {1.63/9 1 (Nd4)} 18. Bxb3 {4.46/11 0 
(Rh1)} Nd4 {4.67/10 5} 19. Bxd4 {4.46/10 0} Qc8 {4.81/10 2 (g6)} 20. Bc3 {5.38/
14 2 (Rh1)} Bf6 {4.84/8 1} 21. f4 {5.66/16 3 (Rg4)} Re8 {5.54/8 1} 22. Ba4 {6.
32/14 1 (Rde1)} Re7 {5.74/8 1 (Rd8)} 23. fxe5 {7.35/15 1 (Rde1)} Bxe5 {6.11/10
1} 24. Bxe5 {7.36/14 0} Rxe5 {5.72/10 1} 25. f4 {7.19/13 0} Rh5 {5.84/10 1} 26.
Bc6 {7.19/12 0 (Rde1)} a5 {8.40/10 5 (Rh3)} 27. Bxa8 {10.62/11 0} Qxa8 {8.93/9
1 (g6)} 28. Rxg7+ {9.29/10 0} Kxg7 {8.93/10 1} 29. Qc3+ {8.95/9 0} 1-0
[D]q7/5pkp/3p4/p2P3r/5P2/P1Q5/1PP5/2KR4 b - - 0 29[/D]

Observing the games, Houdini outplays Shredder in the opening, if not finished, in the middlegame, and if not finished, then surely in the endgame. Tremendous achievement in these less than 10 years.

IWB
Posts: 1538
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:02 pm

Re: 10 years of Computer Chess

Post by IWB » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:58 am

Actually there are something between 400 and 500 ELo between them.

You where lucky that Shredder got 0.5 Points .... :-)

Bye
Ingo

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Laskos
Posts: 7960
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: 10 years of Computer Chess

Post by Laskos » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:08 am

IWB wrote:Actually there are something between 400 and 500 ELo between them.

You where lucky that Shredder got 0.5 Points .... :-)

Bye
Ingo
On your list Houdini 3 vs Shredder 10 difference is 500 points, I believe the difference from Shredder 7.04 is about 600 points, and probably more if Bayeselo compresses ratings. My TC is shorter, 1'+1'', maybe this exaggerated difference a bit. I will play another 200 games to see more draws :)

Kai

IWB
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:02 pm

Re: 10 years of Computer Chess

Post by IWB » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:52 am

Yes you are right (bad calcualtion by me).

600 Elo difference might be about right ...even more supprised am I to see a draw :-)

Bye
Ingo

Vinvin
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am

Re: 10 years of Computer Chess

Post by Vinvin » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:12 am

Laskos wrote:The beast of the early 2003, undisputed SSDF leader, undisputed Playchess Engine Room favorite Shredder 7.04 stands up against the current leader:

Image
...

Observing the games, Houdini outplays Shredder in the opening, if not finished, in the middlegame, and if not finished, then surely in the endgame. Tremendous achievement in these less than 10 years.
Quite laughable :lol:
I hope the trend will continue for the next 10 years :-)

Vinvin
Posts: 4020
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am

Re: 10 years of Computer Chess

Post by Vinvin » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:26 am

Laskos wrote:The beast of the early 2003, undisputed SSDF leader, undisputed Playchess Engine Room favorite Shredder 7.04 stands up against the current leader:
Image
A game

Code: Select all

[Event "10 years"]
[Site "PC"]
[Date "2012.11.08"]
[Round "75"]
[White "Houdini 3 Pro x64"]
[Black "Shredder 7.04"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B90"]
[Annotator "0.40;0.47"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[TimeControl "1+1"]

{W=13.2 plies; 1,
077kN/s; Perfect2012t.ctg  B=9.2 plies; 535kN/s; Perfect2012t.ctg} 1. e4 {B 0}
c5 {B 0} 2. Nf3 {B 0} d6 {B 0} 3. d4 {B 0} cxd4 {B 0} 4. Nxd4 {B 0} Nf6 {B 0}
5. Nc3 {B 0} a6 {B 0} 6. Be3 {B 0} e5 {B 0 Both last book move} 7. Nf3 {0.40/
15 2} Be7 {0.47/10 1 (Nc6)} 8. Bc4 {0.23/15 6 (Be2)} O-O {0.37/10 2 (Be6)} 9.
Qd3 {0.34/15 3 (0-0)} Nc6 {0.40/9 1 (Be6)} 10. a3 {0.33/14 1 (0-0)} Bg4 {0.29/
8 1} 11. h3 {0.52/14 2} Bxf3 {0.33/9 1 (Be6)} 12. gxf3 {0.47/13 0} b5 {0.44/10
1} 13. Ba2 {0.46/15 2} Qd7 {0.33/9 1 (Nd7)} 14. Rg1 {0.68/14 1 (0-0-0)} Qxh3 {
0.40/8 1} 15. O-O-O {0.61/16 1} b4 {0.67/8 2 (g6)} 16. Nd5 {1.84/13 2} Nxd5 {
1.16/9 2 (bxa3)} 17. exd5 {3.21/11 0} b3 {1.63/9 1 (Nd4)} 18. Bxb3 {4.46/11 0 
(Rh1)} Nd4 {4.67/10 5} 19. Bxd4 {4.46/10 0} Qc8 {4.81/10 2 (g6)} 20. Bc3 {5.38/
14 2 (Rh1)} Bf6 {4.84/8 1} 21. f4 {5.66/16 3 (Rg4)} Re8 {5.54/8 1} 22. Ba4 {6.
32/14 1 (Rde1)} Re7 {5.74/8 1 (Rd8)} 23. fxe5 {7.35/15 1 (Rde1)} Bxe5 {6.11/10
1} 24. Bxe5 {7.36/14 0} Rxe5 {5.72/10 1} 25. f4 {7.19/13 0} Rh5 {5.84/10 1} 26.
Bc6 {7.19/12 0 (Rde1)} a5 {8.40/10 5 (Rh3)} 27. Bxa8 {10.62/11 0} Qxa8 {8.93/9
1 (g6)} 28. Rxg7+ {9.29/10 0} Kxg7 {8.93/10 1} 29. Qc3+ {8.95/9 0} 1-0
[D]q7/5pkp/3p4/p2P3r/5P2/P1Q5/1PP5/2KR4 b - - 0 29[/D]

Observing the games, Houdini outplays Shredder in the opening, if not finished, in the middlegame, and if not finished, then surely in the endgame. Tremendous achievement in these less than 10 years.
May be H3 tactical will do even better because it will kill more faster in the middle game !

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Houdini
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Re: 10 years of Computer Chess

Post by Houdini » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:47 am

That's an interesting perspective, I've made an entry on the Houdini Facebook page about it.
From Shredder 7's point of view, Houdini 3 is playing virtually perfect chess.

Will it be possible to sustain the 50 Elo/year software improvement over the next 10 years?

Robert

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Dr.Wael Deeb
Posts: 9635
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:44 pm
Location: Amman,Jordan

Re: 10 years of Computer Chess

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:11 pm

Houdini wrote:That's an interesting perspective, I've made an entry on the Houdini Facebook page about it.
From Shredder 7's point of view, Houdini 3 is playing virtually perfect chess.

Will it be possible to sustain the 50 Elo/year software improvement over the next 10 years?

Robert
More or less yes.......
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Laskos
Posts: 7960
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: 10 years of Computer Chess

Post by Laskos » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:46 pm

Houdini wrote:That's an interesting perspective, I've made an entry on the Houdini Facebook page about it.
From Shredder 7's point of view, Houdini 3 is playing virtually perfect chess.

Will it be possible to sustain the 50 Elo/year software improvement over the next 10 years?

Robert
I put them to play another 200 games at 1'+1''. Both are on one core. The result is +197/=3/-0. The total is +296/=4/-0. Yes, if I came with Houdini 3 back then claiming that it solved chess, it would have been hard for folks to disprove me using the "beast" of its time Shredder 7.04.

2003 was the year when Kasparov played Deep Junior and Kramnik Deep Fritz, both to a draw in matches of 4 games. Shredder 7.04 was the undisputed leader, and I had a healthy respect for its play. To see it dumped like a novice (two thirds of the games finished in under 48 moves) is amazing.

Maybe the trend of +50.. +60 per year can hold, today we cannot imagine something making fun of Houdini 3, 10 years ago I couldn't imagine seeing Shredder in that position.

The result is more than I expected from the rating lists, and there are 2 standard deviations that Houdini 3 scores in excess of 740 points above Shredder 7.04, maybe the rating lists deflate a bit the rating differences on such large intervals.

Tremendous progress.

Kai

Uri Blass
Posts: 8009
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: 10 years of Computer Chess

Post by Uri Blass » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:17 pm

Laskos wrote:The beast of the early 2003, undisputed SSDF leader, undisputed Playchess Engine Room favorite Shredder 7.04 stands up against the current leader:

Image

A game

Code: Select all

[Event "10 years"]
[Site "PC"]
[Date "2012.11.08"]
[Round "75"]
[White "Houdini 3 Pro x64"]
[Black "Shredder 7.04"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B90"]
[Annotator "0.40;0.47"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[TimeControl "1+1"]

{W=13.2 plies; 1,
077kN/s; Perfect2012t.ctg  B=9.2 plies; 535kN/s; Perfect2012t.ctg} 1. e4 {B 0}
c5 {B 0} 2. Nf3 {B 0} d6 {B 0} 3. d4 {B 0} cxd4 {B 0} 4. Nxd4 {B 0} Nf6 {B 0}
5. Nc3 {B 0} a6 {B 0} 6. Be3 {B 0} e5 {B 0 Both last book move} 7. Nf3 {0.40/
15 2} Be7 {0.47/10 1 (Nc6)} 8. Bc4 {0.23/15 6 (Be2)} O-O {0.37/10 2 (Be6)} 9.
Qd3 {0.34/15 3 (0-0)} Nc6 {0.40/9 1 (Be6)} 10. a3 {0.33/14 1 (0-0)} Bg4 {0.29/
8 1} 11. h3 {0.52/14 2} Bxf3 {0.33/9 1 (Be6)} 12. gxf3 {0.47/13 0} b5 {0.44/10
1} 13. Ba2 {0.46/15 2} Qd7 {0.33/9 1 (Nd7)} 14. Rg1 {0.68/14 1 (0-0-0)} Qxh3 {
0.40/8 1} 15. O-O-O {0.61/16 1} b4 {0.67/8 2 (g6)} 16. Nd5 {1.84/13 2} Nxd5 {
1.16/9 2 (bxa3)} 17. exd5 {3.21/11 0} b3 {1.63/9 1 (Nd4)} 18. Bxb3 {4.46/11 0 
(Rh1)} Nd4 {4.67/10 5} 19. Bxd4 {4.46/10 0} Qc8 {4.81/10 2 (g6)} 20. Bc3 {5.38/
14 2 (Rh1)} Bf6 {4.84/8 1} 21. f4 {5.66/16 3 (Rg4)} Re8 {5.54/8 1} 22. Ba4 {6.
32/14 1 (Rde1)} Re7 {5.74/8 1 (Rd8)} 23. fxe5 {7.35/15 1 (Rde1)} Bxe5 {6.11/10
1} 24. Bxe5 {7.36/14 0} Rxe5 {5.72/10 1} 25. f4 {7.19/13 0} Rh5 {5.84/10 1} 26.
Bc6 {7.19/12 0 (Rde1)} a5 {8.40/10 5 (Rh3)} 27. Bxa8 {10.62/11 0} Qxa8 {8.93/9
1 (g6)} 28. Rxg7+ {9.29/10 0} Kxg7 {8.93/10 1} 29. Qc3+ {8.95/9 0} 1-0
[D]q7/5pkp/3p4/p2P3r/5P2/P1Q5/1PP5/2KR4 b - - 0 29[/D]

Observing the games, Houdini outplays Shredder in the opening, if not finished, in the middlegame, and if not finished, then surely in the endgame. Tremendous achievement in these less than 10 years.
It is clear that houdini3 outsearches Shredder7.04 and get bigger depths.

I wonder what is the hardware that you used and how many cpu did the engines use?

It is also interesting to know if shredder may get more draws at longer time control.

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