Stockfish Handicap Matches

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lkaufman
Posts: 4201
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
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Re: Stockfish Handicap Matches

Post by lkaufman » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:57 pm
Rebel wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:39 pm
Rebel wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 am
Made a summary of the knight-odds discussion, includes the download of 6000 games.

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/experiments.html#11
As I mentioned before in a previous post engines above 2700 SSDF are overrated compared to Human, therefore, when you concluded that the turning point lies around ~~2700 elo for engines, we can not conclude that most GM's around ~~2700 elo will lose against Stockfish with a knight Odds. As you will notice that a human rated around 2500 FIDE like GM Ben Finegold knows how to take advantage better than any engine rated around ~~2700 by the SSDF since those engines do not know how to force the trade of other pieces when winning bu a Knight or Bishop. Here I will show you what GM Ben Finegold was saying the day of GM Smerdon vs Komodo Knight Odds ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU

PS: It also look like GM Ben was making fun of Stockfish, so he should be the next match against Komodo with the (c2/f2) pawns Odds, and see if he can show us how to beat Komodo. Also Noticed that GM Ben Finegold made more Money $$$.$$ than GM Smerdon receiving Donations just to make commentaries :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU
In 2002 on a poor Athlon PC Rebel at tournament time control was already able to keep its feet dry (2-2) against a 2700+ elo rated GM. It's not the same as Komodo playing knight odds but the elo gap between Komodo (2020) running at x threads vs Rebel (2002) on an Athlon and semi blitz blitz vs tournament time control is so big I don't hold my breath.
Well, we know that knight odds is too much, because David Smerdon won by 5-1 vs. Komodo just a month ago at 15' +10", and he is only about 30 elo above Finegold. But two pawns is another story entirely. Although Van Foreest (2682) beat Stockfish 2 to 1 at 30" + 10" with two White pawns, Komodo has a very good record against grandmasters when giving two White pawns in Rapid.
I truly believe that GM Ben Finegold would have a fair and very even match against Komnodo with two pawns odds (c2/f2) or other similar two pawns odds configuration at Time control of 15 + 10 sec increment. GM Ben is very popular with his Youtube followers here he made $2,385 in donations which is more than GM Smerdon ever made playing any engine, but GM Ben would benefit tremendously by playing versus Komodo since he has such a great amount of fans that follow him on Youtube ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eXfqsufhw

PS: Now two pawns Odds at Time control of 45 Minutes or greater would be hard even for Komodo latest version, the more time you give the human players rated higher than 2350 that better they come out with a plan and avoid blunders :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdcqRBgxFs

Did you can reach GM Ben Finegold
Phone: 678-628-5615.
Komodo has an overwhelming score against GMs, even ones around 2600, at 45' + 15" when giving two White pawns, although not specifically c2/f2. Even with f2/g2, e2/f2, b2/g2, and c2/g2 Komodo has a huge plus at this TC. But with two Black pawns missing it's not so easy for Komodo at that time control with strong GMs. I emailed Ben, let's give him time to reply. I would perhaps propose that he choose any two White pawns for a four to six game match, but they have to be a different pair each time, he can't choose f2/g2 every time! But even with f2/g2, surely the worst case, we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2".
Can you post those two games we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2". Even if GM Ben Finegold lose 4 games and draw 2 out of 6 games we human will be extremely proud of his performancve, and at the same time he will make a lot of Money on his Youtube Channel plus we will also be watching and donating Money :roll:
Here is the draw with Lenderman at f2 + g2 odds:
[Event "f2g2 odds"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2017"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoChess"]
[Black "AlexanderL"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Aleksandr"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP2P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[EventType "rapid, (45' + 15")"]

1. Nf3 e5 2. e4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bc5 4. d3 a6 5. Qd2 d6 6. Qg2 g6 7. Bd2 Be6 8.Ng5
Qd7 9. Nxe6 fxe6 10. O-O-O O-O-O 11. Be2 Rf8 12. Rdf1 Nf6 13. Bh6 Rf7 14.Qg5
Qe7 15. Kb1 Nb8 16. Rf3 Nh5 17. Rxf7 Qxf7 18. Rf1 Nf4 19. Bd1 Qe8 20. Ne2
Nh5 21. Qd2 Nc6 22. Ng3 Nf4 23. c3 Bb6 24. h4 Qe7 25. Bg5 Qg7 26. Bxf4 exf4 27.
Qxf4 e5 28. Qg5 Qe7 29. Bg4+ Kb8 30. Qxe7 Nxe7 31. Rf7 Nc6 32. Nf1 Nd8 33. Rf6
Re8 34. Kc2 Re7 35. Kd1 Rf7 36. Rxf7 Nxf7 37. Be6 Nd8 38. Bg8 Bf2 39. Bxh7 Bxh4
40. Bxg6 Ne6 41. Be8 c6 42. Kc2 Kc7 43. Bh5 Nf4 44. Bf3 Bf6 45. b4 b5 46. Ng3
Ng6 47. Nh5 Bh8 48. Bg4 Ne7 49. Kd2 Ng8 50. Ng3 Nf6 51. Bh3 Bg7 52. Kc2 Kb6 53.
Be6 a5 54. a3 axb4 55. axb4 Bf8 56. d4 Ne8 57. d5 c5 58. Bf7 Nf6 59. bxc5+ Kxc5
1/2-1/2
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Stockfish Handicap Matches

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am

lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:57 pm
Rebel wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:39 pm
Rebel wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 am
Made a summary of the knight-odds discussion, includes the download of 6000 games.

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/experiments.html#11
As I mentioned before in a previous post engines above 2700 SSDF are overrated compared to Human, therefore, when you concluded that the turning point lies around ~~2700 elo for engines, we can not conclude that most GM's around ~~2700 elo will lose against Stockfish with a knight Odds. As you will notice that a human rated around 2500 FIDE like GM Ben Finegold knows how to take advantage better than any engine rated around ~~2700 by the SSDF since those engines do not know how to force the trade of other pieces when winning bu a Knight or Bishop. Here I will show you what GM Ben Finegold was saying the day of GM Smerdon vs Komodo Knight Odds ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU

PS: It also look like GM Ben was making fun of Stockfish, so he should be the next match against Komodo with the (c2/f2) pawns Odds, and see if he can show us how to beat Komodo. Also Noticed that GM Ben Finegold made more Money $$$.$$ than GM Smerdon receiving Donations just to make commentaries :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU
In 2002 on a poor Athlon PC Rebel at tournament time control was already able to keep its feet dry (2-2) against a 2700+ elo rated GM. It's not the same as Komodo playing knight odds but the elo gap between Komodo (2020) running at x threads vs Rebel (2002) on an Athlon and semi blitz blitz vs tournament time control is so big I don't hold my breath.
Well, we know that knight odds is too much, because David Smerdon won by 5-1 vs. Komodo just a month ago at 15' +10", and he is only about 30 elo above Finegold. But two pawns is another story entirely. Although Van Foreest (2682) beat Stockfish 2 to 1 at 30" + 10" with two White pawns, Komodo has a very good record against grandmasters when giving two White pawns in Rapid.
I truly believe that GM Ben Finegold would have a fair and very even match against Komnodo with two pawns odds (c2/f2) or other similar two pawns odds configuration at Time control of 15 + 10 sec increment. GM Ben is very popular with his Youtube followers here he made $2,385 in donations which is more than GM Smerdon ever made playing any engine, but GM Ben would benefit tremendously by playing versus Komodo since he has such a great amount of fans that follow him on Youtube ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eXfqsufhw

PS: Now two pawns Odds at Time control of 45 Minutes or greater would be hard even for Komodo latest version, the more time you give the human players rated higher than 2350 that better they come out with a plan and avoid blunders :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdcqRBgxFs

Did you can reach GM Ben Finegold
Phone: 678-628-5615.
Komodo has an overwhelming score against GMs, even ones around 2600, at 45' + 15" when giving two White pawns, although not specifically c2/f2. Even with f2/g2, e2/f2, b2/g2, and c2/g2 Komodo has a huge plus at this TC. But with two Black pawns missing it's not so easy for Komodo at that time control with strong GMs. I emailed Ben, let's give him time to reply. I would perhaps propose that he choose any two White pawns for a four to six game match, but they have to be a different pair each time, he can't choose f2/g2 every time! But even with f2/g2, surely the worst case, we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2".
Can you post those two games we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2". Even if GM Ben Finegold lose 4 games and draw 2 out of 6 games we human will be extremely proud of his performancve, and at the same time he will make a lot of Money on his Youtube Channel plus we will also be watching and donating Money :roll:
Here is the draw with Lenderman at f2 + g2 odds:
Thanks for the game. What are the chances of this GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko 2600 players against Komodo ? https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14102595

Chessqueen
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Stockfish Handicap Matches

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:49 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:57 pm
Rebel wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:39 pm
Rebel wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 am
Made a summary of the knight-odds discussion, includes the download of 6000 games.

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/experiments.html#11
As I mentioned before in a previous post engines above 2700 SSDF are overrated compared to Human, therefore, when you concluded that the turning point lies around ~~2700 elo for engines, we can not conclude that most GM's around ~~2700 elo will lose against Stockfish with a knight Odds. As you will notice that a human rated around 2500 FIDE like GM Ben Finegold knows how to take advantage better than any engine rated around ~~2700 by the SSDF since those engines do not know how to force the trade of other pieces when winning bu a Knight or Bishop. Here I will show you what GM Ben Finegold was saying the day of GM Smerdon vs Komodo Knight Odds ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU

PS: It also look like GM Ben was making fun of Stockfish, so he should be the next match against Komodo with the (c2/f2) pawns Odds, and see if he can show us how to beat Komodo. Also Noticed that GM Ben Finegold made more Money $$$.$$ than GM Smerdon receiving Donations just to make commentaries :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU
In 2002 on a poor Athlon PC Rebel at tournament time control was already able to keep its feet dry (2-2) against a 2700+ elo rated GM. It's not the same as Komodo playing knight odds but the elo gap between Komodo (2020) running at x threads vs Rebel (2002) on an Athlon and semi blitz blitz vs tournament time control is so big I don't hold my breath.
Well, we know that knight odds is too much, because David Smerdon won by 5-1 vs. Komodo just a month ago at 15' +10", and he is only about 30 elo above Finegold. But two pawns is another story entirely. Although Van Foreest (2682) beat Stockfish 2 to 1 at 30" + 10" with two White pawns, Komodo has a very good record against grandmasters when giving two White pawns in Rapid.
I truly believe that GM Ben Finegold would have a fair and very even match against Komnodo with two pawns odds (c2/f2) or other similar two pawns odds configuration at Time control of 15 + 10 sec increment. GM Ben is very popular with his Youtube followers here he made $2,385 in donations which is more than GM Smerdon ever made playing any engine, but GM Ben would benefit tremendously by playing versus Komodo since he has such a great amount of fans that follow him on Youtube ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eXfqsufhw

PS: Now two pawns Odds at Time control of 45 Minutes or greater would be hard even for Komodo latest version, the more time you give the human players rated higher than 2350 that better they come out with a plan and avoid blunders :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdcqRBgxFs

Did you can reach GM Ben Finegold
Phone: 678-628-5615.
Komodo has an overwhelming score against GMs, even ones around 2600, at 45' + 15" when giving two White pawns, although not specifically c2/f2. Even with f2/g2, e2/f2, b2/g2, and c2/g2 Komodo has a huge plus at this TC. But with two Black pawns missing it's not so easy for Komodo at that time control with strong GMs. I emailed Ben, let's give him time to reply. I would perhaps propose that he choose any two White pawns for a four to six game match, but they have to be a different pair each time, he can't choose f2/g2 every time! But even with f2/g2, surely the worst case, we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2".
Can you post those two games we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2". Even if GM Ben Finegold lose 4 games and draw 2 out of 6 games we human will be extremely proud of his performancve, and at the same time he will make a lot of Money on his Youtube Channel plus we will also be watching and donating Money :roll:
Here is the draw with Lenderman at f2 + g2 odds:
[Event "f2g2 odds"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2017"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoChess"]
[Black "AlexanderL"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Aleksandr"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP2P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[EventType "rapid, (45' + 15")"]

1. Nf3 e5 2. e4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bc5 4. d3 a6 5. Qd2 d6 6. Qg2 g6 7. Bd2 Be6 8.Ng5
Qd7 9. Nxe6 fxe6 10. O-O-O O-O-O 11. Be2 Rf8 12. Rdf1 Nf6 13. Bh6 Rf7 14.Qg5
Qe7 15. Kb1 Nb8 16. Rf3 Nh5 17. Rxf7 Qxf7 18. Rf1 Nf4 19. Bd1 Qe8 20. Ne2
Nh5 21. Qd2 Nc6 22. Ng3 Nf4 23. c3 Bb6 24. h4 Qe7 25. Bg5 Qg7 26. Bxf4 exf4 27.
Qxf4 e5 28. Qg5 Qe7 29. Bg4+ Kb8 30. Qxe7 Nxe7 31. Rf7 Nc6 32. Nf1 Nd8 33. Rf6
Re8 34. Kc2 Re7 35. Kd1 Rf7 36. Rxf7 Nxf7 37. Be6 Nd8 38. Bg8 Bf2 39. Bxh7 Bxh4
40. Bxg6 Ne6 41. Be8 c6 42. Kc2 Kc7 43. Bh5 Nf4 44. Bf3 Bf6 45. b4 b5 46. Ng3
Ng6 47. Nh5 Bh8 48. Bg4 Ne7 49. Kd2 Ng8 50. Ng3 Nf6 51. Bh3 Bg7 52. Kc2 Kb6 53.
Be6 a5 54. a3 axb4 55. axb4 Bf8 56. d4 Ne8 57. d5 c5 58. Bf7 Nf6 59. bxc5+ Kxc5
1/2-1/2
Thanks for the game. What are the chances of this GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko 2600 players against Komodo ? https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14102595
I believe that GM Ben Finegold said that he was going to be too busy to play the match, because he knows that by another GM playing versus Komodo he will make more money making commentaries oh his Youtube channel than spending 7 hour on the first day and another 7 hours playing another 3 game at TC of 45 + 10 increments. He and his wife Karen thought about it for over 20 hours before answering Mr. Larry email. I saw the entire 2 youtube videos and added up all the donations that GM Ben Finegold received and came up with $4,875.00 just for analysing and making commentaries. Therefore, if he wait for another GM vs Komdo Odds challenge he could make 9 times more money in two days. I guarantee that he will be making commentaries when GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qZ1wjfXpLg

PS: Mr. Larry Kaufman you should open a Youtube LIVE video and make commentaries, and ask for Donations, it is your Engine after all :roll:

lkaufman
Posts: 4201
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Stockfish Handicap Matches

Post by lkaufman » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:49 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:57 pm
Rebel wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:39 pm
Rebel wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 am
Made a summary of the knight-odds discussion, includes the download of 6000 games.

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/experiments.html#11
As I mentioned before in a previous post engines above 2700 SSDF are overrated compared to Human, therefore, when you concluded that the turning point lies around ~~2700 elo for engines, we can not conclude that most GM's around ~~2700 elo will lose against Stockfish with a knight Odds. As you will notice that a human rated around 2500 FIDE like GM Ben Finegold knows how to take advantage better than any engine rated around ~~2700 by the SSDF since those engines do not know how to force the trade of other pieces when winning bu a Knight or Bishop. Here I will show you what GM Ben Finegold was saying the day of GM Smerdon vs Komodo Knight Odds ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU

PS: It also look like GM Ben was making fun of Stockfish, so he should be the next match against Komodo with the (c2/f2) pawns Odds, and see if he can show us how to beat Komodo. Also Noticed that GM Ben Finegold made more Money $$$.$$ than GM Smerdon receiving Donations just to make commentaries :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU
In 2002 on a poor Athlon PC Rebel at tournament time control was already able to keep its feet dry (2-2) against a 2700+ elo rated GM. It's not the same as Komodo playing knight odds but the elo gap between Komodo (2020) running at x threads vs Rebel (2002) on an Athlon and semi blitz blitz vs tournament time control is so big I don't hold my breath.
Well, we know that knight odds is too much, because David Smerdon won by 5-1 vs. Komodo just a month ago at 15' +10", and he is only about 30 elo above Finegold. But two pawns is another story entirely. Although Van Foreest (2682) beat Stockfish 2 to 1 at 30" + 10" with two White pawns, Komodo has a very good record against grandmasters when giving two White pawns in Rapid.
I truly believe that GM Ben Finegold would have a fair and very even match against Komnodo with two pawns odds (c2/f2) or other similar two pawns odds configuration at Time control of 15 + 10 sec increment. GM Ben is very popular with his Youtube followers here he made $2,385 in donations which is more than GM Smerdon ever made playing any engine, but GM Ben would benefit tremendously by playing versus Komodo since he has such a great amount of fans that follow him on Youtube ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eXfqsufhw

PS: Now two pawns Odds at Time control of 45 Minutes or greater would be hard even for Komodo latest version, the more time you give the human players rated higher than 2350 that better they come out with a plan and avoid blunders :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdcqRBgxFs

Did you can reach GM Ben Finegold
Phone: 678-628-5615.
Komodo has an overwhelming score against GMs, even ones around 2600, at 45' + 15" when giving two White pawns, although not specifically c2/f2. Even with f2/g2, e2/f2, b2/g2, and c2/g2 Komodo has a huge plus at this TC. But with two Black pawns missing it's not so easy for Komodo at that time control with strong GMs. I emailed Ben, let's give him time to reply. I would perhaps propose that he choose any two White pawns for a four to six game match, but they have to be a different pair each time, he can't choose f2/g2 every time! But even with f2/g2, surely the worst case, we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2".
Can you post those two games we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2". Even if GM Ben Finegold lose 4 games and draw 2 out of 6 games we human will be extremely proud of his performancve, and at the same time he will make a lot of Money on his Youtube Channel plus we will also be watching and donating Money :roll:
Here is the draw with Lenderman at f2 + g2 odds:
[Event "f2g2 odds"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2017"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoChess"]
[Black "AlexanderL"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Aleksandr"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP2P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[EventType "rapid, (45' + 15")"]

1. Nf3 e5 2. e4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bc5 4. d3 a6 5. Qd2 d6 6. Qg2 g6 7. Bd2 Be6 8.Ng5
Qd7 9. Nxe6 fxe6 10. O-O-O O-O-O 11. Be2 Rf8 12. Rdf1 Nf6 13. Bh6 Rf7 14.Qg5
Qe7 15. Kb1 Nb8 16. Rf3 Nh5 17. Rxf7 Qxf7 18. Rf1 Nf4 19. Bd1 Qe8 20. Ne2
Nh5 21. Qd2 Nc6 22. Ng3 Nf4 23. c3 Bb6 24. h4 Qe7 25. Bg5 Qg7 26. Bxf4 exf4 27.
Qxf4 e5 28. Qg5 Qe7 29. Bg4+ Kb8 30. Qxe7 Nxe7 31. Rf7 Nc6 32. Nf1 Nd8 33. Rf6
Re8 34. Kc2 Re7 35. Kd1 Rf7 36. Rxf7 Nxf7 37. Be6 Nd8 38. Bg8 Bf2 39. Bxh7 Bxh4
40. Bxg6 Ne6 41. Be8 c6 42. Kc2 Kc7 43. Bh5 Nf4 44. Bf3 Bf6 45. b4 b5 46. Ng3
Ng6 47. Nh5 Bh8 48. Bg4 Ne7 49. Kd2 Ng8 50. Ng3 Nf6 51. Bh3 Bg7 52. Kc2 Kb6 53.
Be6 a5 54. a3 axb4 55. axb4 Bf8 56. d4 Ne8 57. d5 c5 58. Bf7 Nf6 59. bxc5+ Kxc5
1/2-1/2
Thanks for the game. What are the chances of this GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko 2600 players against Komodo ? https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14102595
I believe that GM Ben Finegold said that he was going to be too busy to play the match, because he knows that by another GM playing versus Komodo he will make more money making commentaries oh his Youtube channel than spending 7 hour on the first day and another 7 hours playing another 3 game at TC of 45 + 10 increments. He and his wife Karen thought about it for over 20 hours before answering Mr. Larry email. I saw the entire 2 youtube videos and added up all the donations that GM Ben Finegold received and came up with $4,875.00 just for analysing and making commentaries. Therefore, if he wait for another GM vs Komdo Odds challenge he could make 9 times more money in two days. I guarantee that he will be making commentaries when GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qZ1wjfXpLg

PS: Mr. Larry Kaufman you should open a Youtube LIVE video and make commentaries, and ask for Donations, it is your Engine after all :roll:
I think that Miroshnichenko would be competitive with Komodo with two pawn odds including f2 or g2 but no repeats, that would be pretty fair. I played three fast rapid games (10' + 5") with what I picked as the three top engines for handicap play, Komodo MCTS, latest Lc070xxx, and latest StockfishNNUE, at odds of c7 + f7, and made an even score myself. The difference between playing White and Black with these two pawn handicaps is quite large, but I'm a long way from 2600 level now so I was a bit surprised to be competitive. Regarding Ben, I thought he would do self-commentary if he played so I don't quite follow why he would make less money. Maybe someday I'll learn to do videos myself, but for now I'd rather focus on improving Komodo. I'm not in this to make money.
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Stockfish Handicap Matches

Post by Chessqueen » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:33 am

lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:49 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:57 pm
Rebel wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:39 pm
Rebel wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 am
Made a summary of the knight-odds discussion, includes the download of 6000 games.

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/experiments.html#11
As I mentioned before in a previous post engines above 2700 SSDF are overrated compared to Human, therefore, when you concluded that the turning point lies around ~~2700 elo for engines, we can not conclude that most GM's around ~~2700 elo will lose against Stockfish with a knight Odds. As you will notice that a human rated around 2500 FIDE like GM Ben Finegold knows how to take advantage better than any engine rated around ~~2700 by the SSDF since those engines do not know how to force the trade of other pieces when winning bu a Knight or Bishop. Here I will show you what GM Ben Finegold was saying the day of GM Smerdon vs Komodo Knight Odds ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU

PS: It also look like GM Ben was making fun of Stockfish, so he should be the next match against Komodo with the (c2/f2) pawns Odds, and see if he can show us how to beat Komodo. Also Noticed that GM Ben Finegold made more Money $$$.$$ than GM Smerdon receiving Donations just to make commentaries :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU
In 2002 on a poor Athlon PC Rebel at tournament time control was already able to keep its feet dry (2-2) against a 2700+ elo rated GM. It's not the same as Komodo playing knight odds but the elo gap between Komodo (2020) running at x threads vs Rebel (2002) on an Athlon and semi blitz blitz vs tournament time control is so big I don't hold my breath.
Well, we know that knight odds is too much, because David Smerdon won by 5-1 vs. Komodo just a month ago at 15' +10", and he is only about 30 elo above Finegold. But two pawns is another story entirely. Although Van Foreest (2682) beat Stockfish 2 to 1 at 30" + 10" with two White pawns, Komodo has a very good record against grandmasters when giving two White pawns in Rapid.
I truly believe that GM Ben Finegold would have a fair and very even match against Komnodo with two pawns odds (c2/f2) or other similar two pawns odds configuration at Time control of 15 + 10 sec increment. GM Ben is very popular with his Youtube followers here he made $2,385 in donations which is more than GM Smerdon ever made playing any engine, but GM Ben would benefit tremendously by playing versus Komodo since he has such a great amount of fans that follow him on Youtube ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eXfqsufhw

PS: Now two pawns Odds at Time control of 45 Minutes or greater would be hard even for Komodo latest version, the more time you give the human players rated higher than 2350 that better they come out with a plan and avoid blunders :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdcqRBgxFs

Did you can reach GM Ben Finegold
Phone: 678-628-5615.
Komodo has an overwhelming score against GMs, even ones around 2600, at 45' + 15" when giving two White pawns, although not specifically c2/f2. Even with f2/g2, e2/f2, b2/g2, and c2/g2 Komodo has a huge plus at this TC. But with two Black pawns missing it's not so easy for Komodo at that time control with strong GMs. I emailed Ben, let's give him time to reply. I would perhaps propose that he choose any two White pawns for a four to six game match, but they have to be a different pair each time, he can't choose f2/g2 every time! But even with f2/g2, surely the worst case, we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2".
Can you post those two games we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2". Even if GM Ben Finegold lose 4 games and draw 2 out of 6 games we human will be extremely proud of his performancve, and at the same time he will make a lot of Money on his Youtube Channel plus we will also be watching and donating Money :roll:
Here is the draw with Lenderman at f2 + g2 odds:
[Event "f2g2 odds"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2017"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoChess"]
[Black "AlexanderL"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Aleksandr"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP2P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[EventType "rapid, (45' + 15")"]

1. Nf3 e5 2. e4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bc5 4. d3 a6 5. Qd2 d6 6. Qg2 g6 7. Bd2 Be6 8.Ng5
Qd7 9. Nxe6 fxe6 10. O-O-O O-O-O 11. Be2 Rf8 12. Rdf1 Nf6 13. Bh6 Rf7 14.Qg5
Qe7 15. Kb1 Nb8 16. Rf3 Nh5 17. Rxf7 Qxf7 18. Rf1 Nf4 19. Bd1 Qe8 20. Ne2
Nh5 21. Qd2 Nc6 22. Ng3 Nf4 23. c3 Bb6 24. h4 Qe7 25. Bg5 Qg7 26. Bxf4 exf4 27.
Qxf4 e5 28. Qg5 Qe7 29. Bg4+ Kb8 30. Qxe7 Nxe7 31. Rf7 Nc6 32. Nf1 Nd8 33. Rf6
Re8 34. Kc2 Re7 35. Kd1 Rf7 36. Rxf7 Nxf7 37. Be6 Nd8 38. Bg8 Bf2 39. Bxh7 Bxh4
40. Bxg6 Ne6 41. Be8 c6 42. Kc2 Kc7 43. Bh5 Nf4 44. Bf3 Bf6 45. b4 b5 46. Ng3
Ng6 47. Nh5 Bh8 48. Bg4 Ne7 49. Kd2 Ng8 50. Ng3 Nf6 51. Bh3 Bg7 52. Kc2 Kb6 53.
Be6 a5 54. a3 axb4 55. axb4 Bf8 56. d4 Ne8 57. d5 c5 58. Bf7 Nf6 59. bxc5+ Kxc5
1/2-1/2
Thanks for the game. What are the chances of this GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko 2600 players against Komodo ? https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14102595
I believe that GM Ben Finegold said that he was going to be too busy to play the match, because he knows that by another GM playing versus Komodo he will make more money making commentaries oh his Youtube channel than spending 7 hour on the first day and another 7 hours playing another 3 game at TC of 45 + 10 increments. He and his wife Karen thought about it for over 20 hours before answering Mr. Larry email. I saw the entire 2 youtube videos and added up all the donations that GM Ben Finegold received and came up with $4,875.00 just for analysing and making commentaries. Therefore, if he wait for another GM vs Komdo Odds challenge he could make 9 times more money in two days. I guarantee that he will be making commentaries when GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qZ1wjfXpLg

PS: Mr. Larry Kaufman you should open a Youtube LIVE video and make commentaries, and ask for Donations, it is your Engine after all :roll:
I think that Miroshnichenko would be competitive with Komodo with two pawn odds including f2 or g2 but no repeats, that would be pretty fair. I played three fast rapid games (10' + 5") with what I picked as the three top engines for handicap play, Komodo MCTS, latest Lc070xxx, and latest StockfishNNUE, at odds of c7 + f7, and made an even score myself. The difference between playing White and Black with these two pawn handicaps is quite large, but I'm a long way from 2600 level now so I was a bit surprised to be competitive. Regarding Ben, I thought he would do self-commentary if he played so I don't quite follow why he would make less money. Maybe someday I'll learn to do videos myself, but for now I'd rather focus on improving Komodo. I'm not in this to make money.
Let see If I get it clear in mind mind, with KNight Odds is it Stockfish or Komodo that play best? And with any other Odds less than a Knight Odds Komodo is the best engine to play versus Top GM at 45 + 5 sec increcrement minutes or even 90 + 5 sec increments Minutes ?

PS: Of course the only way to know that for sure is, If he beat Komodo with certain 2 pawns structure, immediately to let him play versus Stockfish with the same position.

lkaufman
Posts: 4201
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Stockfish Handicap Matches

Post by lkaufman » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:15 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:33 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:49 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:57 pm
Rebel wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:39 pm
Rebel wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 am
Made a summary of the knight-odds discussion, includes the download of 6000 games.

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/experiments.html#11
As I mentioned before in a previous post engines above 2700 SSDF are overrated compared to Human, therefore, when you concluded that the turning point lies around ~~2700 elo for engines, we can not conclude that most GM's around ~~2700 elo will lose against Stockfish with a knight Odds. As you will notice that a human rated around 2500 FIDE like GM Ben Finegold knows how to take advantage better than any engine rated around ~~2700 by the SSDF since those engines do not know how to force the trade of other pieces when winning bu a Knight or Bishop. Here I will show you what GM Ben Finegold was saying the day of GM Smerdon vs Komodo Knight Odds ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU

PS: It also look like GM Ben was making fun of Stockfish, so he should be the next match against Komodo with the (c2/f2) pawns Odds, and see if he can show us how to beat Komodo. Also Noticed that GM Ben Finegold made more Money $$$.$$ than GM Smerdon receiving Donations just to make commentaries :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU
In 2002 on a poor Athlon PC Rebel at tournament time control was already able to keep its feet dry (2-2) against a 2700+ elo rated GM. It's not the same as Komodo playing knight odds but the elo gap between Komodo (2020) running at x threads vs Rebel (2002) on an Athlon and semi blitz blitz vs tournament time control is so big I don't hold my breath.
Well, we know that knight odds is too much, because David Smerdon won by 5-1 vs. Komodo just a month ago at 15' +10", and he is only about 30 elo above Finegold. But two pawns is another story entirely. Although Van Foreest (2682) beat Stockfish 2 to 1 at 30" + 10" with two White pawns, Komodo has a very good record against grandmasters when giving two White pawns in Rapid.
I truly believe that GM Ben Finegold would have a fair and very even match against Komnodo with two pawns odds (c2/f2) or other similar two pawns odds configuration at Time control of 15 + 10 sec increment. GM Ben is very popular with his Youtube followers here he made $2,385 in donations which is more than GM Smerdon ever made playing any engine, but GM Ben would benefit tremendously by playing versus Komodo since he has such a great amount of fans that follow him on Youtube ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eXfqsufhw

PS: Now two pawns Odds at Time control of 45 Minutes or greater would be hard even for Komodo latest version, the more time you give the human players rated higher than 2350 that better they come out with a plan and avoid blunders :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdcqRBgxFs

Did you can reach GM Ben Finegold
Phone: 678-628-5615.
Komodo has an overwhelming score against GMs, even ones around 2600, at 45' + 15" when giving two White pawns, although not specifically c2/f2. Even with f2/g2, e2/f2, b2/g2, and c2/g2 Komodo has a huge plus at this TC. But with two Black pawns missing it's not so easy for Komodo at that time control with strong GMs. I emailed Ben, let's give him time to reply. I would perhaps propose that he choose any two White pawns for a four to six game match, but they have to be a different pair each time, he can't choose f2/g2 every time! But even with f2/g2, surely the worst case, we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2".
Can you post those two games we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2". Even if GM Ben Finegold lose 4 games and draw 2 out of 6 games we human will be extremely proud of his performancve, and at the same time he will make a lot of Money on his Youtube Channel plus we will also be watching and donating Money :roll:
Here is the draw with Lenderman at f2 + g2 odds:
[Event "f2g2 odds"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2017"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoChess"]
[Black "AlexanderL"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Aleksandr"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP2P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[EventType "rapid, (45' + 15")"]

1. Nf3 e5 2. e4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bc5 4. d3 a6 5. Qd2 d6 6. Qg2 g6 7. Bd2 Be6 8.Ng5
Qd7 9. Nxe6 fxe6 10. O-O-O O-O-O 11. Be2 Rf8 12. Rdf1 Nf6 13. Bh6 Rf7 14.Qg5
Qe7 15. Kb1 Nb8 16. Rf3 Nh5 17. Rxf7 Qxf7 18. Rf1 Nf4 19. Bd1 Qe8 20. Ne2
Nh5 21. Qd2 Nc6 22. Ng3 Nf4 23. c3 Bb6 24. h4 Qe7 25. Bg5 Qg7 26. Bxf4 exf4 27.
Qxf4 e5 28. Qg5 Qe7 29. Bg4+ Kb8 30. Qxe7 Nxe7 31. Rf7 Nc6 32. Nf1 Nd8 33. Rf6
Re8 34. Kc2 Re7 35. Kd1 Rf7 36. Rxf7 Nxf7 37. Be6 Nd8 38. Bg8 Bf2 39. Bxh7 Bxh4
40. Bxg6 Ne6 41. Be8 c6 42. Kc2 Kc7 43. Bh5 Nf4 44. Bf3 Bf6 45. b4 b5 46. Ng3
Ng6 47. Nh5 Bh8 48. Bg4 Ne7 49. Kd2 Ng8 50. Ng3 Nf6 51. Bh3 Bg7 52. Kc2 Kb6 53.
Be6 a5 54. a3 axb4 55. axb4 Bf8 56. d4 Ne8 57. d5 c5 58. Bf7 Nf6 59. bxc5+ Kxc5
1/2-1/2
Thanks for the game. What are the chances of this GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko 2600 players against Komodo ? https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14102595
I believe that GM Ben Finegold said that he was going to be too busy to play the match, because he knows that by another GM playing versus Komodo he will make more money making commentaries oh his Youtube channel than spending 7 hour on the first day and another 7 hours playing another 3 game at TC of 45 + 10 increments. He and his wife Karen thought about it for over 20 hours before answering Mr. Larry email. I saw the entire 2 youtube videos and added up all the donations that GM Ben Finegold received and came up with $4,875.00 just for analysing and making commentaries. Therefore, if he wait for another GM vs Komdo Odds challenge he could make 9 times more money in two days. I guarantee that he will be making commentaries when GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qZ1wjfXpLg

PS: Mr. Larry Kaufman you should open a Youtube LIVE video and make commentaries, and ask for Donations, it is your Engine after all :roll:
I think that Miroshnichenko would be competitive with Komodo with two pawn odds including f2 or g2 but no repeats, that would be pretty fair. I played three fast rapid games (10' + 5") with what I picked as the three top engines for handicap play, Komodo MCTS, latest Lc070xxx, and latest StockfishNNUE, at odds of c7 + f7, and made an even score myself. The difference between playing White and Black with these two pawn handicaps is quite large, but I'm a long way from 2600 level now so I was a bit surprised to be competitive. Regarding Ben, I thought he would do self-commentary if he played so I don't quite follow why he would make less money. Maybe someday I'll learn to do videos myself, but for now I'd rather focus on improving Komodo. I'm not in this to make money.
Let see If I get it clear in mind mind, with KNight Odds is it Stockfish or Komodo that play best? And with any other Odds less than a Knight Odds Komodo is the best engine to play versus Top GM at 45 + 5 sec increcrement minutes or even 90 + 5 sec increments Minutes ?

PS: Of course the only way to know that for sure is, If he beat Komodo with certain 2 pawns structure, immediately to let him play versus Stockfish with the same position.
Stockfish isn't so good at giving handicaps beyond one pawn to humans, but StockfishNNUE is quite good at it, as it uses a small NN which makes it pretty good at comparing different losing positions. It uses Stockfish search but NN eval. As long as I "feed" them the right first move to play at c7 + f7 handicap, all three (Komodo MCTS, SFnnue, and Lc0 70xxx) seem to be able to beat me at c7 + f7. This is a problem with handicaps given by Black involving the f7 pawn, there are forcing lines right from move 1 so Black's very first move may be critical. But if we only do handicaps given by White there is a huge gap between two pawns (any) and knight. Three pawns is possible but doesn't look much like chess anymore. I guess knight for b7 or c7 pawn as we did with Lenderman is ok. Well, two White pawns seems right for 2600+ GMs as long as one is f2 or g2, so it's not such a big issue.
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Stockfish Handicap Matches

Post by Chessqueen » Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:46 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:15 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:33 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:49 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:57 pm
Rebel wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:39 pm
Rebel wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 am
Made a summary of the knight-odds discussion, includes the download of 6000 games.

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/experiments.html#11
As I mentioned before in a previous post engines above 2700 SSDF are overrated compared to Human, therefore, when you concluded that the turning point lies around ~~2700 elo for engines, we can not conclude that most GM's around ~~2700 elo will lose against Stockfish with a knight Odds. As you will notice that a human rated around 2500 FIDE like GM Ben Finegold knows how to take advantage better than any engine rated around ~~2700 by the SSDF since those engines do not know how to force the trade of other pieces when winning bu a Knight or Bishop. Here I will show you what GM Ben Finegold was saying the day of GM Smerdon vs Komodo Knight Odds ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU

PS: It also look like GM Ben was making fun of Stockfish, so he should be the next match against Komodo with the (c2/f2) pawns Odds, and see if he can show us how to beat Komodo. Also Noticed that GM Ben Finegold made more Money $$$.$$ than GM Smerdon receiving Donations just to make commentaries :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU
In 2002 on a poor Athlon PC Rebel at tournament time control was already able to keep its feet dry (2-2) against a 2700+ elo rated GM. It's not the same as Komodo playing knight odds but the elo gap between Komodo (2020) running at x threads vs Rebel (2002) on an Athlon and semi blitz blitz vs tournament time control is so big I don't hold my breath.
Well, we know that knight odds is too much, because David Smerdon won by 5-1 vs. Komodo just a month ago at 15' +10", and he is only about 30 elo above Finegold. But two pawns is another story entirely. Although Van Foreest (2682) beat Stockfish 2 to 1 at 30" + 10" with two White pawns, Komodo has a very good record against grandmasters when giving two White pawns in Rapid.
I truly believe that GM Ben Finegold would have a fair and very even match against Komnodo with two pawns odds (c2/f2) or other similar two pawns odds configuration at Time control of 15 + 10 sec increment. GM Ben is very popular with his Youtube followers here he made $2,385 in donations which is more than GM Smerdon ever made playing any engine, but GM Ben would benefit tremendously by playing versus Komodo since he has such a great amount of fans that follow him on Youtube ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eXfqsufhw

PS: Now two pawns Odds at Time control of 45 Minutes or greater would be hard even for Komodo latest version, the more time you give the human players rated higher than 2350 that better they come out with a plan and avoid blunders :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdcqRBgxFs

Did you can reach GM Ben Finegold
Phone: 678-628-5615.
Komodo has an overwhelming score against GMs, even ones around 2600, at 45' + 15" when giving two White pawns, although not specifically c2/f2. Even with f2/g2, e2/f2, b2/g2, and c2/g2 Komodo has a huge plus at this TC. But with two Black pawns missing it's not so easy for Komodo at that time control with strong GMs. I emailed Ben, let's give him time to reply. I would perhaps propose that he choose any two White pawns for a four to six game match, but they have to be a different pair each time, he can't choose f2/g2 every time! But even with f2/g2, surely the worst case, we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2".
Can you post those two games we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2". Even if GM Ben Finegold lose 4 games and draw 2 out of 6 games we human will be extremely proud of his performancve, and at the same time he will make a lot of Money on his Youtube Channel plus we will also be watching and donating Money :roll:
Here is the draw with Lenderman at f2 + g2 odds:
[Event "f2g2 odds"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2017"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoChess"]
[Black "AlexanderL"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Aleksandr"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP2P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[EventType "rapid, (45' + 15")"]

1. Nf3 e5 2. e4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bc5 4. d3 a6 5. Qd2 d6 6. Qg2 g6 7. Bd2 Be6 8.Ng5
Qd7 9. Nxe6 fxe6 10. O-O-O O-O-O 11. Be2 Rf8 12. Rdf1 Nf6 13. Bh6 Rf7 14.Qg5
Qe7 15. Kb1 Nb8 16. Rf3 Nh5 17. Rxf7 Qxf7 18. Rf1 Nf4 19. Bd1 Qe8 20. Ne2
Nh5 21. Qd2 Nc6 22. Ng3 Nf4 23. c3 Bb6 24. h4 Qe7 25. Bg5 Qg7 26. Bxf4 exf4 27.
Qxf4 e5 28. Qg5 Qe7 29. Bg4+ Kb8 30. Qxe7 Nxe7 31. Rf7 Nc6 32. Nf1 Nd8 33. Rf6
Re8 34. Kc2 Re7 35. Kd1 Rf7 36. Rxf7 Nxf7 37. Be6 Nd8 38. Bg8 Bf2 39. Bxh7 Bxh4
40. Bxg6 Ne6 41. Be8 c6 42. Kc2 Kc7 43. Bh5 Nf4 44. Bf3 Bf6 45. b4 b5 46. Ng3
Ng6 47. Nh5 Bh8 48. Bg4 Ne7 49. Kd2 Ng8 50. Ng3 Nf6 51. Bh3 Bg7 52. Kc2 Kb6 53.
Be6 a5 54. a3 axb4 55. axb4 Bf8 56. d4 Ne8 57. d5 c5 58. Bf7 Nf6 59. bxc5+ Kxc5
1/2-1/2
Thanks for the game. What are the chances of this GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko 2600 players against Komodo ? https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14102595
I believe that GM Ben Finegold said that he was going to be too busy to play the match, because he knows that by another GM playing versus Komodo he will make more money making commentaries oh his Youtube channel than spending 7 hour on the first day and another 7 hours playing another 3 game at TC of 45 + 10 increments. He and his wife Karen thought about it for over 20 hours before answering Mr. Larry email. I saw the entire 2 youtube videos and added up all the donations that GM Ben Finegold received and came up with $4,875.00 just for analysing and making commentaries. Therefore, if he wait for another GM vs Komdo Odds challenge he could make 9 times more money in two days. I guarantee that he will be making commentaries when GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qZ1wjfXpLg

PS: Mr. Larry Kaufman you should open a Youtube LIVE video and make commentaries, and ask for Donations, it is your Engine after all :roll:
I think that Miroshnichenko would be competitive with Komodo with two pawn odds including f2 or g2 but no repeats, that would be pretty fair. I played three fast rapid games (10' + 5") with what I picked as the three top engines for handicap play, Komodo MCTS, latest Lc070xxx, and latest StockfishNNUE, at odds of c7 + f7, and made an even score myself. The difference between playing White and Black with these two pawn handicaps is quite large, but I'm a long way from 2600 level now so I was a bit surprised to be competitive. Regarding Ben, I thought he would do self-commentary if he played so I don't quite follow why he would make less money. Maybe someday I'll learn to do videos myself, but for now I'd rather focus on improving Komodo. I'm not in this to make money.
Let see If I get it clear in mind mind, with KNight Odds is it Stockfish or Komodo that play best? And with any other Odds less than a Knight Odds Komodo is the best engine to play versus Top GM at 45 + 5 sec increcrement minutes or even 90 + 5 sec increments Minutes ?

PS: Of course the only way to know that for sure is, If he beat Komodo with certain 2 pawns structure, immediately to let him play versus Stockfish with the same position.
Stockfish isn't so good at giving handicaps beyond one pawn to humans, but StockfishNNUE is quite good at it, as it uses a small NN which makes it pretty good at comparing different losing positions. It uses Stockfish search but NN eval. As long as I "feed" them the right first move to play at c7 + f7 handicap, all three (Komodo MCTS, SFnnue, and Lc0 70xxx) seem to be able to beat me at c7 + f7. This is a problem with handicaps given by Black involving the f7 pawn, there are forcing lines right from move 1 so Black's very first move may be critical. But if we only do handicaps given by White there is a huge gap between two pawns (any) and knight. Three pawns is possible but doesn't look much like chess anymore. I guess knight for b7 or c7 pawn as we did with Lenderman is ok. Well, two White pawns seems right for 2600+ GMs as long as one is f2 or g2, so it's not such a big issue.
You are correct Stockfish isn't so good at giving handicaps at all :shock:


lkaufman
Posts: 4201
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Stockfish Handicap Matches

Post by lkaufman » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:06 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:46 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:15 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:33 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:49 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:57 pm
Rebel wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:39 pm
Rebel wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 am
Made a summary of the knight-odds discussion, includes the download of 6000 games.

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/experiments.html#11
As I mentioned before in a previous post engines above 2700 SSDF are overrated compared to Human, therefore, when you concluded that the turning point lies around ~~2700 elo for engines, we can not conclude that most GM's around ~~2700 elo will lose against Stockfish with a knight Odds. As you will notice that a human rated around 2500 FIDE like GM Ben Finegold knows how to take advantage better than any engine rated around ~~2700 by the SSDF since those engines do not know how to force the trade of other pieces when winning bu a Knight or Bishop. Here I will show you what GM Ben Finegold was saying the day of GM Smerdon vs Komodo Knight Odds ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU

PS: It also look like GM Ben was making fun of Stockfish, so he should be the next match against Komodo with the (c2/f2) pawns Odds, and see if he can show us how to beat Komodo. Also Noticed that GM Ben Finegold made more Money $$$.$$ than GM Smerdon receiving Donations just to make commentaries :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU
In 2002 on a poor Athlon PC Rebel at tournament time control was already able to keep its feet dry (2-2) against a 2700+ elo rated GM. It's not the same as Komodo playing knight odds but the elo gap between Komodo (2020) running at x threads vs Rebel (2002) on an Athlon and semi blitz blitz vs tournament time control is so big I don't hold my breath.
Well, we know that knight odds is too much, because David Smerdon won by 5-1 vs. Komodo just a month ago at 15' +10", and he is only about 30 elo above Finegold. But two pawns is another story entirely. Although Van Foreest (2682) beat Stockfish 2 to 1 at 30" + 10" with two White pawns, Komodo has a very good record against grandmasters when giving two White pawns in Rapid.
I truly believe that GM Ben Finegold would have a fair and very even match against Komnodo with two pawns odds (c2/f2) or other similar two pawns odds configuration at Time control of 15 + 10 sec increment. GM Ben is very popular with his Youtube followers here he made $2,385 in donations which is more than GM Smerdon ever made playing any engine, but GM Ben would benefit tremendously by playing versus Komodo since he has such a great amount of fans that follow him on Youtube ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eXfqsufhw

PS: Now two pawns Odds at Time control of 45 Minutes or greater would be hard even for Komodo latest version, the more time you give the human players rated higher than 2350 that better they come out with a plan and avoid blunders :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdcqRBgxFs

Did you can reach GM Ben Finegold
Phone: 678-628-5615.
Komodo has an overwhelming score against GMs, even ones around 2600, at 45' + 15" when giving two White pawns, although not specifically c2/f2. Even with f2/g2, e2/f2, b2/g2, and c2/g2 Komodo has a huge plus at this TC. But with two Black pawns missing it's not so easy for Komodo at that time control with strong GMs. I emailed Ben, let's give him time to reply. I would perhaps propose that he choose any two White pawns for a four to six game match, but they have to be a different pair each time, he can't choose f2/g2 every time! But even with f2/g2, surely the worst case, we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2".
Can you post those two games we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2". Even if GM Ben Finegold lose 4 games and draw 2 out of 6 games we human will be extremely proud of his performancve, and at the same time he will make a lot of Money on his Youtube Channel plus we will also be watching and donating Money :roll:
Here is the draw with Lenderman at f2 + g2 odds:
[Event "f2g2 odds"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2017"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoChess"]
[Black "AlexanderL"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Aleksandr"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP2P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[EventType "rapid, (45' + 15")"]

1. Nf3 e5 2. e4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bc5 4. d3 a6 5. Qd2 d6 6. Qg2 g6 7. Bd2 Be6 8.Ng5
Qd7 9. Nxe6 fxe6 10. O-O-O O-O-O 11. Be2 Rf8 12. Rdf1 Nf6 13. Bh6 Rf7 14.Qg5
Qe7 15. Kb1 Nb8 16. Rf3 Nh5 17. Rxf7 Qxf7 18. Rf1 Nf4 19. Bd1 Qe8 20. Ne2
Nh5 21. Qd2 Nc6 22. Ng3 Nf4 23. c3 Bb6 24. h4 Qe7 25. Bg5 Qg7 26. Bxf4 exf4 27.
Qxf4 e5 28. Qg5 Qe7 29. Bg4+ Kb8 30. Qxe7 Nxe7 31. Rf7 Nc6 32. Nf1 Nd8 33. Rf6
Re8 34. Kc2 Re7 35. Kd1 Rf7 36. Rxf7 Nxf7 37. Be6 Nd8 38. Bg8 Bf2 39. Bxh7 Bxh4
40. Bxg6 Ne6 41. Be8 c6 42. Kc2 Kc7 43. Bh5 Nf4 44. Bf3 Bf6 45. b4 b5 46. Ng3
Ng6 47. Nh5 Bh8 48. Bg4 Ne7 49. Kd2 Ng8 50. Ng3 Nf6 51. Bh3 Bg7 52. Kc2 Kb6 53.
Be6 a5 54. a3 axb4 55. axb4 Bf8 56. d4 Ne8 57. d5 c5 58. Bf7 Nf6 59. bxc5+ Kxc5
1/2-1/2
Thanks for the game. What are the chances of this GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko 2600 players against Komodo ? https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14102595
I believe that GM Ben Finegold said that he was going to be too busy to play the match, because he knows that by another GM playing versus Komodo he will make more money making commentaries oh his Youtube channel than spending 7 hour on the first day and another 7 hours playing another 3 game at TC of 45 + 10 increments. He and his wife Karen thought about it for over 20 hours before answering Mr. Larry email. I saw the entire 2 youtube videos and added up all the donations that GM Ben Finegold received and came up with $4,875.00 just for analysing and making commentaries. Therefore, if he wait for another GM vs Komdo Odds challenge he could make 9 times more money in two days. I guarantee that he will be making commentaries when GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qZ1wjfXpLg

PS: Mr. Larry Kaufman you should open a Youtube LIVE video and make commentaries, and ask for Donations, it is your Engine after all :roll:
I think that Miroshnichenko would be competitive with Komodo with two pawn odds including f2 or g2 but no repeats, that would be pretty fair. I played three fast rapid games (10' + 5") with what I picked as the three top engines for handicap play, Komodo MCTS, latest Lc070xxx, and latest StockfishNNUE, at odds of c7 + f7, and made an even score myself. The difference between playing White and Black with these two pawn handicaps is quite large, but I'm a long way from 2600 level now so I was a bit surprised to be competitive. Regarding Ben, I thought he would do self-commentary if he played so I don't quite follow why he would make less money. Maybe someday I'll learn to do videos myself, but for now I'd rather focus on improving Komodo. I'm not in this to make money.
Let see If I get it clear in mind mind, with KNight Odds is it Stockfish or Komodo that play best? And with any other Odds less than a Knight Odds Komodo is the best engine to play versus Top GM at 45 + 5 sec increcrement minutes or even 90 + 5 sec increments Minutes ?

PS: Of course the only way to know that for sure is, If he beat Komodo with certain 2 pawns structure, immediately to let him play versus Stockfish with the same position.
Stockfish isn't so good at giving handicaps beyond one pawn to humans, but StockfishNNUE is quite good at it, as it uses a small NN which makes it pretty good at comparing different losing positions. It uses Stockfish search but NN eval. As long as I "feed" them the right first move to play at c7 + f7 handicap, all three (Komodo MCTS, SFnnue, and Lc0 70xxx) seem to be able to beat me at c7 + f7. This is a problem with handicaps given by Black involving the f7 pawn, there are forcing lines right from move 1 so Black's very first move may be critical. But if we only do handicaps given by White there is a huge gap between two pawns (any) and knight. Three pawns is possible but doesn't look much like chess anymore. I guess knight for b7 or c7 pawn as we did with Lenderman is ok. Well, two White pawns seems right for 2600+ GMs as long as one is f2 or g2, so it's not such a big issue.
You are correct Stockfish isn't so good at giving handicaps at all :shock:

Was this 45' each with no increment (it says "2710") or perhaps with 10" increment? For comparison, GM Lenderman drew both games with Komodo MCTS at knight for b7 pawn (one with each White knight missing), although these were at 15' + 10".
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Stockfish Handicap Matches

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:24 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:46 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:15 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:33 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:49 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:57 pm
Rebel wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:39 pm
Rebel wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 am
Made a summary of the knight-odds discussion, includes the download of 6000 games.

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/experiments.html#11
As I mentioned before in a previous post engines above 2700 SSDF are overrated compared to Human, therefore, when you concluded that the turning point lies around ~~2700 elo for engines, we can not conclude that most GM's around ~~2700 elo will lose against Stockfish with a knight Odds. As you will notice that a human rated around 2500 FIDE like GM Ben Finegold knows how to take advantage better than any engine rated around ~~2700 by the SSDF since those engines do not know how to force the trade of other pieces when winning bu a Knight or Bishop. Here I will show you what GM Ben Finegold was saying the day of GM Smerdon vs Komodo Knight Odds ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU

PS: It also look like GM Ben was making fun of Stockfish, so he should be the next match against Komodo with the (c2/f2) pawns Odds, and see if he can show us how to beat Komodo. Also Noticed that GM Ben Finegold made more Money $$$.$$ than GM Smerdon receiving Donations just to make commentaries :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU
In 2002 on a poor Athlon PC Rebel at tournament time control was already able to keep its feet dry (2-2) against a 2700+ elo rated GM. It's not the same as Komodo playing knight odds but the elo gap between Komodo (2020) running at x threads vs Rebel (2002) on an Athlon and semi blitz blitz vs tournament time control is so big I don't hold my breath.
Well, we know that knight odds is too much, because David Smerdon won by 5-1 vs. Komodo just a month ago at 15' +10", and he is only about 30 elo above Finegold. But two pawns is another story entirely. Although Van Foreest (2682) beat Stockfish 2 to 1 at 30" + 10" with two White pawns, Komodo has a very good record against grandmasters when giving two White pawns in Rapid.
I truly believe that GM Ben Finegold would have a fair and very even match against Komnodo with two pawns odds (c2/f2) or other similar two pawns odds configuration at Time control of 15 + 10 sec increment. GM Ben is very popular with his Youtube followers here he made $2,385 in donations which is more than GM Smerdon ever made playing any engine, but GM Ben would benefit tremendously by playing versus Komodo since he has such a great amount of fans that follow him on Youtube ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eXfqsufhw

PS: Now two pawns Odds at Time control of 45 Minutes or greater would be hard even for Komodo latest version, the more time you give the human players rated higher than 2350 that better they come out with a plan and avoid blunders :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdcqRBgxFs

Did you can reach GM Ben Finegold
Phone: 678-628-5615.
Komodo has an overwhelming score against GMs, even ones around 2600, at 45' + 15" when giving two White pawns, although not specifically c2/f2. Even with f2/g2, e2/f2, b2/g2, and c2/g2 Komodo has a huge plus at this TC. But with two Black pawns missing it's not so easy for Komodo at that time control with strong GMs. I emailed Ben, let's give him time to reply. I would perhaps propose that he choose any two White pawns for a four to six game match, but they have to be a different pair each time, he can't choose f2/g2 every time! But even with f2/g2, surely the worst case, we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2".
Can you post those two games we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2". Even if GM Ben Finegold lose 4 games and draw 2 out of 6 games we human will be extremely proud of his performancve, and at the same time he will make a lot of Money on his Youtube Channel plus we will also be watching and donating Money :roll:
Here is the draw with Lenderman at f2 + g2 odds:
[Event "f2g2 odds"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2017"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoChess"]
[Black "AlexanderL"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Aleksandr"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP2P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[EventType "rapid, (45' + 15")"]

1. Nf3 e5 2. e4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bc5 4. d3 a6 5. Qd2 d6 6. Qg2 g6 7. Bd2 Be6 8.Ng5
Qd7 9. Nxe6 fxe6 10. O-O-O O-O-O 11. Be2 Rf8 12. Rdf1 Nf6 13. Bh6 Rf7 14.Qg5
Qe7 15. Kb1 Nb8 16. Rf3 Nh5 17. Rxf7 Qxf7 18. Rf1 Nf4 19. Bd1 Qe8 20. Ne2
Nh5 21. Qd2 Nc6 22. Ng3 Nf4 23. c3 Bb6 24. h4 Qe7 25. Bg5 Qg7 26. Bxf4 exf4 27.
Qxf4 e5 28. Qg5 Qe7 29. Bg4+ Kb8 30. Qxe7 Nxe7 31. Rf7 Nc6 32. Nf1 Nd8 33. Rf6
Re8 34. Kc2 Re7 35. Kd1 Rf7 36. Rxf7 Nxf7 37. Be6 Nd8 38. Bg8 Bf2 39. Bxh7 Bxh4
40. Bxg6 Ne6 41. Be8 c6 42. Kc2 Kc7 43. Bh5 Nf4 44. Bf3 Bf6 45. b4 b5 46. Ng3
Ng6 47. Nh5 Bh8 48. Bg4 Ne7 49. Kd2 Ng8 50. Ng3 Nf6 51. Bh3 Bg7 52. Kc2 Kb6 53.
Be6 a5 54. a3 axb4 55. axb4 Bf8 56. d4 Ne8 57. d5 c5 58. Bf7 Nf6 59. bxc5+ Kxc5
1/2-1/2
Thanks for the game. What are the chances of this GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko 2600 players against Komodo ? https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14102595
I believe that GM Ben Finegold said that he was going to be too busy to play the match, because he knows that by another GM playing versus Komodo he will make more money making commentaries oh his Youtube channel than spending 7 hour on the first day and another 7 hours playing another 3 game at TC of 45 + 10 increments. He and his wife Karen thought about it for over 20 hours before answering Mr. Larry email. I saw the entire 2 youtube videos and added up all the donations that GM Ben Finegold received and came up with $4,875.00 just for analysing and making commentaries. Therefore, if he wait for another GM vs Komdo Odds challenge he could make 9 times more money in two days. I guarantee that he will be making commentaries when GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qZ1wjfXpLg

PS: Mr. Larry Kaufman you should open a Youtube LIVE video and make commentaries, and ask for Donations, it is your Engine after all :roll:
I think that Miroshnichenko would be competitive with Komodo with two pawn odds including f2 or g2 but no repeats, that would be pretty fair. I played three fast rapid games (10' + 5") with what I picked as the three top engines for handicap play, Komodo MCTS, latest Lc070xxx, and latest StockfishNNUE, at odds of c7 + f7, and made an even score myself. The difference between playing White and Black with these two pawn handicaps is quite large, but I'm a long way from 2600 level now so I was a bit surprised to be competitive. Regarding Ben, I thought he would do self-commentary if he played so I don't quite follow why he would make less money. Maybe someday I'll learn to do videos myself, but for now I'd rather focus on improving Komodo. I'm not in this to make money.
Let see If I get it clear in mind mind, with KNight Odds is it Stockfish or Komodo that play best? And with any other Odds less than a Knight Odds Komodo is the best engine to play versus Top GM at 45 + 5 sec increcrement minutes or even 90 + 5 sec increments Minutes ?

PS: Of course the only way to know that for sure is, If he beat Komodo with certain 2 pawns structure, immediately to let him play versus Stockfish with the same position.
Stockfish isn't so good at giving handicaps beyond one pawn to humans, but StockfishNNUE is quite good at it, as it uses a small NN which makes it pretty good at comparing different losing positions. It uses Stockfish search but NN eval. As long as I "feed" them the right first move to play at c7 + f7 handicap, all three (Komodo MCTS, SFnnue, and Lc0 70xxx) seem to be able to beat me at c7 + f7. This is a problem with handicaps given by Black involving the f7 pawn, there are forcing lines right from move 1 so Black's very first move may be critical. But if we only do handicaps given by White there is a huge gap between two pawns (any) and knight. Three pawns is possible but doesn't look much like chess anymore. I guess knight for b7 or c7 pawn as we did with Lenderman is ok. Well, two White pawns seems right for 2600+ GMs as long as one is f2 or g2, so it's not such a big issue.
You are correct Stockfish isn't so good at giving handicaps at all :shock:

I used this laptop that I purchased from Tiger direct it is NOT as fast as your 32 cores so Time Control of 45 + 10 sec increment is almost comparable. The Problem is that Stockfish does NOT know how to avoid obvious trade and knowing that Bb7 was possible still payed Nf3 on the first move Jorge was laughing saying I am already almost 2.5 pawn up in material and SF is going to let me trade the only piece that it has developed other Knight, by that it is giving up the initial White's opening advantage. https://www.atmarktrade.com/products/re ... IAQAvD_BwE

lkaufman
Posts: 4201
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Stockfish Handicap Matches

Post by lkaufman » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:16 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:24 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:46 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:15 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:33 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:49 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:19 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:57 pm
Rebel wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:39 pm
Rebel wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 am
Made a summary of the knight-odds discussion, includes the download of 6000 games.

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/experiments.html#11
As I mentioned before in a previous post engines above 2700 SSDF are overrated compared to Human, therefore, when you concluded that the turning point lies around ~~2700 elo for engines, we can not conclude that most GM's around ~~2700 elo will lose against Stockfish with a knight Odds. As you will notice that a human rated around 2500 FIDE like GM Ben Finegold knows how to take advantage better than any engine rated around ~~2700 by the SSDF since those engines do not know how to force the trade of other pieces when winning bu a Knight or Bishop. Here I will show you what GM Ben Finegold was saying the day of GM Smerdon vs Komodo Knight Odds ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU

PS: It also look like GM Ben was making fun of Stockfish, so he should be the next match against Komodo with the (c2/f2) pawns Odds, and see if he can show us how to beat Komodo. Also Noticed that GM Ben Finegold made more Money $$$.$$ than GM Smerdon receiving Donations just to make commentaries :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFhPPOU
In 2002 on a poor Athlon PC Rebel at tournament time control was already able to keep its feet dry (2-2) against a 2700+ elo rated GM. It's not the same as Komodo playing knight odds but the elo gap between Komodo (2020) running at x threads vs Rebel (2002) on an Athlon and semi blitz blitz vs tournament time control is so big I don't hold my breath.
Well, we know that knight odds is too much, because David Smerdon won by 5-1 vs. Komodo just a month ago at 15' +10", and he is only about 30 elo above Finegold. But two pawns is another story entirely. Although Van Foreest (2682) beat Stockfish 2 to 1 at 30" + 10" with two White pawns, Komodo has a very good record against grandmasters when giving two White pawns in Rapid.
I truly believe that GM Ben Finegold would have a fair and very even match against Komnodo with two pawns odds (c2/f2) or other similar two pawns odds configuration at Time control of 15 + 10 sec increment. GM Ben is very popular with his Youtube followers here he made $2,385 in donations which is more than GM Smerdon ever made playing any engine, but GM Ben would benefit tremendously by playing versus Komodo since he has such a great amount of fans that follow him on Youtube ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9eXfqsufhw

PS: Now two pawns Odds at Time control of 45 Minutes or greater would be hard even for Komodo latest version, the more time you give the human players rated higher than 2350 that better they come out with a plan and avoid blunders :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdcqRBgxFs

Did you can reach GM Ben Finegold
Phone: 678-628-5615.
Komodo has an overwhelming score against GMs, even ones around 2600, at 45' + 15" when giving two White pawns, although not specifically c2/f2. Even with f2/g2, e2/f2, b2/g2, and c2/g2 Komodo has a huge plus at this TC. But with two Black pawns missing it's not so easy for Komodo at that time control with strong GMs. I emailed Ben, let's give him time to reply. I would perhaps propose that he choose any two White pawns for a four to six game match, but they have to be a different pair each time, he can't choose f2/g2 every time! But even with f2/g2, surely the worst case, we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2".
Can you post those two games we drew Lenderman at 45' + 15" and drew MVL (who was world number 1 in rapid not long after the Komodo match) at 15' + 2". Even if GM Ben Finegold lose 4 games and draw 2 out of 6 games we human will be extremely proud of his performancve, and at the same time he will make a lot of Money on his Youtube Channel plus we will also be watching and donating Money :roll:
Here is the draw with Lenderman at f2 + g2 odds:
[Event "f2g2 odds"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2017"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoChess"]
[Black "AlexanderL"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Aleksandr"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP2P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[EventType "rapid, (45' + 15")"]

1. Nf3 e5 2. e4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bc5 4. d3 a6 5. Qd2 d6 6. Qg2 g6 7. Bd2 Be6 8.Ng5
Qd7 9. Nxe6 fxe6 10. O-O-O O-O-O 11. Be2 Rf8 12. Rdf1 Nf6 13. Bh6 Rf7 14.Qg5
Qe7 15. Kb1 Nb8 16. Rf3 Nh5 17. Rxf7 Qxf7 18. Rf1 Nf4 19. Bd1 Qe8 20. Ne2
Nh5 21. Qd2 Nc6 22. Ng3 Nf4 23. c3 Bb6 24. h4 Qe7 25. Bg5 Qg7 26. Bxf4 exf4 27.
Qxf4 e5 28. Qg5 Qe7 29. Bg4+ Kb8 30. Qxe7 Nxe7 31. Rf7 Nc6 32. Nf1 Nd8 33. Rf6
Re8 34. Kc2 Re7 35. Kd1 Rf7 36. Rxf7 Nxf7 37. Be6 Nd8 38. Bg8 Bf2 39. Bxh7 Bxh4
40. Bxg6 Ne6 41. Be8 c6 42. Kc2 Kc7 43. Bh5 Nf4 44. Bf3 Bf6 45. b4 b5 46. Ng3
Ng6 47. Nh5 Bh8 48. Bg4 Ne7 49. Kd2 Ng8 50. Ng3 Nf6 51. Bh3 Bg7 52. Kc2 Kb6 53.
Be6 a5 54. a3 axb4 55. axb4 Bf8 56. d4 Ne8 57. d5 c5 58. Bf7 Nf6 59. bxc5+ Kxc5
1/2-1/2
Thanks for the game. What are the chances of this GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko 2600 players against Komodo ? https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14102595
I believe that GM Ben Finegold said that he was going to be too busy to play the match, because he knows that by another GM playing versus Komodo he will make more money making commentaries oh his Youtube channel than spending 7 hour on the first day and another 7 hours playing another 3 game at TC of 45 + 10 increments. He and his wife Karen thought about it for over 20 hours before answering Mr. Larry email. I saw the entire 2 youtube videos and added up all the donations that GM Ben Finegold received and came up with $4,875.00 just for analysing and making commentaries. Therefore, if he wait for another GM vs Komdo Odds challenge he could make 9 times more money in two days. I guarantee that he will be making commentaries when GM Evgenij Miroshnichenko play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qZ1wjfXpLg

PS: Mr. Larry Kaufman you should open a Youtube LIVE video and make commentaries, and ask for Donations, it is your Engine after all :roll:
I think that Miroshnichenko would be competitive with Komodo with two pawn odds including f2 or g2 but no repeats, that would be pretty fair. I played three fast rapid games (10' + 5") with what I picked as the three top engines for handicap play, Komodo MCTS, latest Lc070xxx, and latest StockfishNNUE, at odds of c7 + f7, and made an even score myself. The difference between playing White and Black with these two pawn handicaps is quite large, but I'm a long way from 2600 level now so I was a bit surprised to be competitive. Regarding Ben, I thought he would do self-commentary if he played so I don't quite follow why he would make less money. Maybe someday I'll learn to do videos myself, but for now I'd rather focus on improving Komodo. I'm not in this to make money.
Let see If I get it clear in mind mind, with KNight Odds is it Stockfish or Komodo that play best? And with any other Odds less than a Knight Odds Komodo is the best engine to play versus Top GM at 45 + 5 sec increcrement minutes or even 90 + 5 sec increments Minutes ?

PS: Of course the only way to know that for sure is, If he beat Komodo with certain 2 pawns structure, immediately to let him play versus Stockfish with the same position.
Stockfish isn't so good at giving handicaps beyond one pawn to humans, but StockfishNNUE is quite good at it, as it uses a small NN which makes it pretty good at comparing different losing positions. It uses Stockfish search but NN eval. As long as I "feed" them the right first move to play at c7 + f7 handicap, all three (Komodo MCTS, SFnnue, and Lc0 70xxx) seem to be able to beat me at c7 + f7. This is a problem with handicaps given by Black involving the f7 pawn, there are forcing lines right from move 1 so Black's very first move may be critical. But if we only do handicaps given by White there is a huge gap between two pawns (any) and knight. Three pawns is possible but doesn't look much like chess anymore. I guess knight for b7 or c7 pawn as we did with Lenderman is ok. Well, two White pawns seems right for 2600+ GMs as long as one is f2 or g2, so it's not such a big issue.
You are correct Stockfish isn't so good at giving handicaps at all :shock:

I used this laptop that I purchased from Tiger direct it is NOT as fast as your 32 cores so Time Control of 45 + 10 sec increment is almost comparable. The Problem is that Stockfish does NOT know how to avoid obvious trade and knowing that Bb7 was possible still payed Nf3 on the first move Jorge was laughing saying I am already almost 2.5 pawn up in material and SF is going to let me trade the only piece that it has developed other Knight, by that it is giving up the initial White's opening advantage. https://www.atmarktrade.com/products/re ... IAQAvD_BwE
Well, doubling the time limit does not offset a 10 to 1 hardware difference, and Jorge had double the time that Lenderman had, so it's not that similar, but I agree with your general statement, SF has a big problem with allowing trades when losing. The 1Nf3 isn't so clear since White gets the bishop pair at least, but allowing the trading of queens and minors on d2 was quite hopeless. After playing more games with the engines at handicaps, this time at knight for tempo (1e4 played and still White to move), I'm less impressed with StockfishNNUE but more impressed with the recent Lc0 70xxx versions. Only Lc0 70xxx and KomodoMCTS are competitive with me at that handicap at 10' + 5". But it's too large a handicap for a strong player at a longer time limit, the French still works fine a tempo down with an extra knight. The "cleanest" handicaps below a knight are the Exchange (rook a1 for either Black knight) and Exchange and Move (rook a8 for either White knight), since the rook plays no role in the first few moves usually. But even Exchange and move (roughly half of knight odds) has proved to be tough for grandmasters vs. Komodo, roughly half draws and half wins for Komodo at 45' + 15". Jorge could try that if we wants a challenge.
Komodo rules!

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