Some fun with Komodo 8

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
User avatar
Laskos
Posts: 9518
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:21 pm
Full name: Kai Laskos

Some fun with Komodo 8

Post by Laskos » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:32 pm

1/ Effective branching factors with and without LMR and Null Move

Komodo 8

Ply:11 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 130966 Branching = 2.03
Ply:12 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 256428 Branching = 1.96
Ply:13 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 496702 Branching = 1.94
Ply:14 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 952252 Branching = 1.92
Ply:15 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 1722201 Branching = 1.81
EBF 1.93



Komodo 8 no LMR

Ply: 7 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 15755 Branching = 2.13
Ply: 8 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 36239 Branching = 2.30
Ply: 9 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 88718 Branching = 2.45
Ply:10 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 229883 Branching = 2.59
Ply:11 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 596821 Branching = 2.60
EBF 2.41



Komodo 8 no LMR no Null Move


Ply: 5 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 5305 Branching = 2.44
Ply: 6 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 11355 Branching = 2.14
Ply: 7 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 29124 Branching = 2.56
Ply: 8 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 77321 Branching = 2.65
Ply: 9 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 265114 Branching = 3.43
EBF 2.61



2/ Fixed depth Elo loss due to LMR and Null Move

Fixed depth 12:
Score of K8 vs K8 no LMR: 8 - 59 - 33 [0.24] 100
ELO difference: -196

Fixed depth 12:
Score of K8 vs K8 no Null Move: 17 - 47 - 36 [0.35] 100
ELO difference: -108



3/ Fixed time Elo gain due to LMR and Null Move

Fixed time 10''+0.1''
Score of K8 vs K8 no LMR: 48 - 11 - 41 [0.69] 100
ELO difference: 135


Fixed time 10''+0.1''
Score of K8 vs K8 no Null Move: 51 - 17 - 32 [0.67] 100
ELO difference: 123


Fixed time 10''+0.1''
Score of K8 no Null Move vs K 8 no LMR: 39 - 26 - 35 [0.56] 100
ELO difference: 45



/4 Legendary Komodo widening on parallel search

Fixed depth 11:
Score of K8 8 threads vs K8 1 thread: 39 - 15 - 46 [0.62] 100
ELO difference: 85

voyagerOne
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 6:12 pm

Re: Some fun with Komodo 8

Post by voyagerOne » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:39 pm

Interesting

Can you provide results for
2/Komodo 8 vs no null and no LMR
3/Komodo 8 vs no null and no LMR

User avatar
Laskos
Posts: 9518
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:21 pm
Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Some fun with Komodo 8

Post by Laskos » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:32 pm

voyagerOne wrote:Interesting

Can you provide results for
2/Komodo 8 vs no null and no LMR
3/Komodo 8 vs no null and no LMR
Fixed time: 10''+0.1''
Score of K8 vs K8 no LMR no Null Move: 79 - 6 - 15 [0.86] 100
ELO difference: 323

Fixes depth 11:
Score of K8 vs K8 no LMR no Null Move: 10 - 67 - 23 [0.21] 100
ELO difference: -225

voyagerOne
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 6:12 pm

Re: Some fun with Komodo 8

Post by voyagerOne » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:39 pm

Thanks Kai! I really appreciate it.

One last request if you are up to it...
I am curious what the B.F. will be with no null, no lmr, and no transposition table.

User avatar
Laskos
Posts: 9518
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:21 pm
Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Some fun with Komodo 8

Post by Laskos » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:18 pm

voyagerOne wrote:Thanks Kai! I really appreciate it.

One last request if you are up to it...
I am curious what the B.F. will be with no null, no lmr, and no transposition table.
Komodo 8 no LMR no Null Move no TT

Ply: 5 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 5191 Branching = 2.54
Ply: 6 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 11650 Branching = 2.24
Ply: 7 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 28506 Branching = 2.45
Ply: 8 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 76675 Branching = 2.69
Ply: 9 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 269659 Branching = 3.52
EBF 2.66

TT has a moderate effect on EBF (2.66 to 2.61).

voyagerOne
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 6:12 pm

Re: Some fun with Komodo 8

Post by voyagerOne » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:14 am

OP delivers once again!
Thanks!

Uri Blass
Posts: 8609
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Some fun with Komodo 8

Post by Uri Blass » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:21 am

Laskos wrote:1/ Effective branching factors with and without LMR and Null Move

Komodo 8

Ply:11 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 130966 Branching = 2.03
Ply:12 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 256428 Branching = 1.96
Ply:13 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 496702 Branching = 1.94
Ply:14 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 952252 Branching = 1.92
Ply:15 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 1722201 Branching = 1.81
EBF 1.93



Komodo 8 no LMR

Ply: 7 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 15755 Branching = 2.13
Ply: 8 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 36239 Branching = 2.30
Ply: 9 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 88718 Branching = 2.45
Ply:10 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 229883 Branching = 2.59
Ply:11 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 596821 Branching = 2.60
EBF 2.41



Komodo 8 no LMR no Null Move


Ply: 5 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 5305 Branching = 2.44
Ply: 6 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 11355 Branching = 2.14
Ply: 7 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 29124 Branching = 2.56
Ply: 8 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 77321 Branching = 2.65
Ply: 9 Positions:150 Avg Nodes: 265114 Branching = 3.43
EBF 2.61



2/ Fixed depth Elo loss due to LMR and Null Move

Fixed depth 12:
Score of K8 vs K8 no LMR: 8 - 59 - 33 [0.24] 100
ELO difference: -196

Fixed depth 12:
Score of K8 vs K8 no Null Move: 17 - 47 - 36 [0.35] 100
ELO difference: -108



3/ Fixed time Elo gain due to LMR and Null Move

Fixed time 10''+0.1''
Score of K8 vs K8 no LMR: 48 - 11 - 41 [0.69] 100
ELO difference: 135


Fixed time 10''+0.1''
Score of K8 vs K8 no Null Move: 51 - 17 - 32 [0.67] 100
ELO difference: 123


Fixed time 10''+0.1''
Score of K8 no Null Move vs K 8 no LMR: 39 - 26 - 35 [0.56] 100
ELO difference: 45



/4 Legendary Komodo widening on parallel search

Fixed depth 11:
Score of K8 8 threads vs K8 1 thread: 39 - 15 - 46 [0.62] 100
ELO difference: 85
Thanks for the information.

It may be interesting to know the effective branching factor with the default version also for stockfish and also for higher depths than depths 11-15

It may be interesting to know if the EBF tend to go down when the depth go up to get some formula of the average nodes that chess programs need to get depth n both for stockfish and komodo.

User avatar
Laskos
Posts: 9518
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:21 pm
Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Some fun with Komodo 8

Post by Laskos » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:59 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Thanks for the information.

It may be interesting to know the effective branching factor with the default version also for stockfish and also for higher depths than depths 11-15

It may be interesting to know if the EBF tend to go down when the depth go up to get some formula of the average nodes that chess programs need to get depth n both for stockfish and komodo.
I am on my weak notebook, so the depths achieved are not very high.

Code: Select all

Komodo 8
  TotTime: 121:01m    SolTime: 121:01m
  Ply: 0   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:       0   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 1   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     145   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 2   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     361   Branching = 2.49
  Ply: 3   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     735   Branching = 2.04
  Ply: 4   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    1604   Branching = 2.18
  Ply: 5   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    2925   Branching = 1.82
  Ply: 6   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    5034   Branching = 1.72
  Ply: 7   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    9015   Branching = 1.79
  Ply: 8   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   16481   Branching = 1.83
  Ply: 9   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   32833   Branching = 1.99
  Ply:10   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   64039   Branching = 1.95
  Ply:11   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  130712   Branching = 2.04
  Ply:12   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  258195   Branching = 1.98
  Ply:13   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  493481   Branching = 1.91
  Ply:14   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  942114   Branching = 1.91
  Ply:15   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 1706669   Branching = 1.81
  Ply:16   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 3093132   Branching = 1.81
  Ply:17   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 5904301   Branching = 1.91


SF 21092014
  TotTime: 99:42m    SolTime: 99:42m
  Ply: 0   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:       0   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 1   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     143   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 2   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     454   Branching = 3.17
  Ply: 3   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     920   Branching = 2.03
  Ply: 4   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    1716   Branching = 1.87
  Ply: 5   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    2994   Branching = 1.74
  Ply: 6   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    5161   Branching = 1.72
  Ply: 7   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    8765   Branching = 1.70
  Ply: 8   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   15862   Branching = 1.81
  Ply: 9   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   32596   Branching = 2.05
  Ply:10   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   64130   Branching = 1.97
  Ply:11   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  114509   Branching = 1.79
  Ply:12   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  214187   Branching = 1.87
  Ply:13   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  387621   Branching = 1.81
  Ply:14   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  642514   Branching = 1.66
  Ply:15   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 1131855   Branching = 1.76
  Ply:16   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 1895303   Branching = 1.67
  Ply:17   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 3085415   Branching = 1.63
  Ply:18   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 4856014   Branching = 1.57
  Ply:19   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 7714003   Branching = 1.59
1/ If we take EBF as Nodes^(1/Depth) then we will get misleading EBF Komodo 2.50 and EBF SF 2.30. That's because of Ply 1, which suddenly rises to large values.
2/ Better take EBF of last 5 plies, which are better predictor for higher depths. Keep in mind that I used Hash of 1GB, which was never fully filled during the test.

So, for EBF in the last 5 plies:

EBF Komodo 8: 1.87
EBF SF: 1.64

And their respective predictions for higher depths (with enough Hash) are:

Komodo 8: Nodes=5904301*1.87^(depth-17)
SF 21092014: Nodes=7714003*1.64^(depth-19)

Uri Blass
Posts: 8609
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Some fun with Komodo 8

Post by Uri Blass » Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:58 pm

Laskos wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Thanks for the information.

It may be interesting to know the effective branching factor with the default version also for stockfish and also for higher depths than depths 11-15

It may be interesting to know if the EBF tend to go down when the depth go up to get some formula of the average nodes that chess programs need to get depth n both for stockfish and komodo.
I am on my weak notebook, so the depths achieved are not very high.

Code: Select all

Komodo 8
  TotTime: 121:01m    SolTime: 121:01m
  Ply: 0   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:       0   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 1   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     145   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 2   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     361   Branching = 2.49
  Ply: 3   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     735   Branching = 2.04
  Ply: 4   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    1604   Branching = 2.18
  Ply: 5   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    2925   Branching = 1.82
  Ply: 6   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    5034   Branching = 1.72
  Ply: 7   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    9015   Branching = 1.79
  Ply: 8   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   16481   Branching = 1.83
  Ply: 9   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   32833   Branching = 1.99
  Ply:10   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   64039   Branching = 1.95
  Ply:11   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  130712   Branching = 2.04
  Ply:12   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  258195   Branching = 1.98
  Ply:13   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  493481   Branching = 1.91
  Ply:14   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  942114   Branching = 1.91
  Ply:15   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 1706669   Branching = 1.81
  Ply:16   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 3093132   Branching = 1.81
  Ply:17   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 5904301   Branching = 1.91


SF 21092014
  TotTime: 99:42m    SolTime: 99:42m
  Ply: 0   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:       0   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 1   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     143   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 2   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     454   Branching = 3.17
  Ply: 3   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     920   Branching = 2.03
  Ply: 4   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    1716   Branching = 1.87
  Ply: 5   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    2994   Branching = 1.74
  Ply: 6   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    5161   Branching = 1.72
  Ply: 7   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    8765   Branching = 1.70
  Ply: 8   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   15862   Branching = 1.81
  Ply: 9   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   32596   Branching = 2.05
  Ply:10   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   64130   Branching = 1.97
  Ply:11   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  114509   Branching = 1.79
  Ply:12   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  214187   Branching = 1.87
  Ply:13   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  387621   Branching = 1.81
  Ply:14   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  642514   Branching = 1.66
  Ply:15   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 1131855   Branching = 1.76
  Ply:16   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 1895303   Branching = 1.67
  Ply:17   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 3085415   Branching = 1.63
  Ply:18   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 4856014   Branching = 1.57
  Ply:19   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 7714003   Branching = 1.59
1/ If we take EBF as Nodes^(1/Depth) then we will get misleading EBF Komodo 2.50 and EBF SF 2.30. That's because of Ply 1, which suddenly rises to large values.
2/ Better take EBF of last 5 plies, which are better predictor for higher depths. Keep in mind that I used Hash of 1GB, which was never fully filled during the test.

So, for EBF in the last 5 plies:

EBF Komodo 8: 1.87
EBF SF: 1.64

And their respective predictions for higher depths (with enough Hash) are:

Komodo 8: Nodes=5904301*1.87^(depth-17)
SF 21092014: Nodes=7714003*1.64^(depth-19)
You assume constant branching factor but I suspect that the branching factor tends to goes down with more nodes so it is going to be less than it
and you may need a different formula

Somebody claimed that
the amount N of nodes to depth d in the opening position
fits the formula

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... y7WosULKWk

Sergey Morozov suggested the following formula as an estimate based on analysis of the opening position
Nodes= 1.5*15^(depth^0.6)

Of course a single position may be misleading but it may be interesting to find the best A,B,C for a formula of the type
Nodes=C*A^(depth^B).

User avatar
Laskos
Posts: 9518
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:21 pm
Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Some fun with Komodo 8

Post by Laskos » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:04 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Laskos wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Thanks for the information.

It may be interesting to know the effective branching factor with the default version also for stockfish and also for higher depths than depths 11-15

It may be interesting to know if the EBF tend to go down when the depth go up to get some formula of the average nodes that chess programs need to get depth n both for stockfish and komodo.
I am on my weak notebook, so the depths achieved are not very high.

Code: Select all

Komodo 8
  TotTime: 121:01m    SolTime: 121:01m
  Ply: 0   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:       0   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 1   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     145   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 2   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     361   Branching = 2.49
  Ply: 3   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     735   Branching = 2.04
  Ply: 4   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    1604   Branching = 2.18
  Ply: 5   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    2925   Branching = 1.82
  Ply: 6   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    5034   Branching = 1.72
  Ply: 7   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    9015   Branching = 1.79
  Ply: 8   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   16481   Branching = 1.83
  Ply: 9   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   32833   Branching = 1.99
  Ply:10   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   64039   Branching = 1.95
  Ply:11   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  130712   Branching = 2.04
  Ply:12   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  258195   Branching = 1.98
  Ply:13   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  493481   Branching = 1.91
  Ply:14   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  942114   Branching = 1.91
  Ply:15   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 1706669   Branching = 1.81
  Ply:16   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 3093132   Branching = 1.81
  Ply:17   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 5904301   Branching = 1.91


SF 21092014
  TotTime: 99:42m    SolTime: 99:42m
  Ply: 0   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:       0   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 1   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     143   Branching = 0.00
  Ply: 2   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     454   Branching = 3.17
  Ply: 3   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:     920   Branching = 2.03
  Ply: 4   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    1716   Branching = 1.87
  Ply: 5   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    2994   Branching = 1.74
  Ply: 6   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    5161   Branching = 1.72
  Ply: 7   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:    8765   Branching = 1.70
  Ply: 8   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   15862   Branching = 1.81
  Ply: 9   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   32596   Branching = 2.05
  Ply:10   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:   64130   Branching = 1.97
  Ply:11   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  114509   Branching = 1.79
  Ply:12   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  214187   Branching = 1.87
  Ply:13   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  387621   Branching = 1.81
  Ply:14   Positions:150   Avg Nodes:  642514   Branching = 1.66
  Ply:15   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 1131855   Branching = 1.76
  Ply:16   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 1895303   Branching = 1.67
  Ply:17   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 3085415   Branching = 1.63
  Ply:18   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 4856014   Branching = 1.57
  Ply:19   Positions:150   Avg Nodes: 7714003   Branching = 1.59
1/ If we take EBF as Nodes^(1/Depth) then we will get misleading EBF Komodo 2.50 and EBF SF 2.30. That's because of Ply 1, which suddenly rises to large values.
2/ Better take EBF of last 5 plies, which are better predictor for higher depths. Keep in mind that I used Hash of 1GB, which was never fully filled during the test.

So, for EBF in the last 5 plies:

EBF Komodo 8: 1.87
EBF SF: 1.64

And their respective predictions for higher depths (with enough Hash) are:

Komodo 8: Nodes=5904301*1.87^(depth-17)
SF 21092014: Nodes=7714003*1.64^(depth-19)
You assume constant branching factor but I suspect that the branching factor tends to goes down with more nodes so it is going to be less than it
and you may need a different formula

Somebody claimed that
the amount N of nodes to depth d in the opening position
fits the formula

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... y7WosULKWk

Sergey Morozov suggested the following formula as an estimate based on analysis of the opening position
Nodes= 1.5*15^(depth^0.6)

Of course a single position may be misleading but it may be interesting to find the best A,B,C for a formula of the type
Nodes=C*A^(depth^B).
I fitted with least squares the results for SF (ply 1 to 19) and Komodo 8 (ply 1 to 17).


SF: Nodes = 51.1*3.908^(depth^0.7367)
The branching factor here indeed goes down with depth (with unlimited Hash size).

But for Komodo 8: Nodes = 268.2*1.621^(depth^1.069)
The branching factor here goes very mildly up with depth (with unlimited Hash size).

Post Reply