Botvinnik mastery

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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6033
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Botvinnik mastery

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:35 pm

[D]1r1r2k1/2b1qp1p/b1p3p1/p1p1p3/2P1P3/1PN1BP2/P1Q3PP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 25

The position is from a game of Botvinnik.
Could you (your engines) find the winning continuation (and there is only one, I think)?

I think this position is very nice concerning strategy understanding.

Here the whole game:

[pgn][Event "Russia"]
[Site "Tournament, Moscow"]
[Date "1943.??.??"]
[White "Ljublinsky Victor (RUS)"]
[Black "Botvinnik M"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C77/05"]
[MLNrOfMoves "53"]
[MLFlags "000000"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. Bxc6 bxc6 6. Nc3 d6 7. d4 Nd7 8.
dxe5 dxe5 9. O-O Bd6 10. Ne2 O-O 11. Ng3 Rb8 12. b3 Re8 13. Be3 g6 14. c3 a5 15.
Qc2 Qe7 16. Rfd1 Nc5 17. Ne1 Ne6 18. Nd3 Nf4 19. f3 Ba6 20. c4 c5 21. Qd2 Nxd3
22. Qxd3 Red8 23. Ne2 c6 24. Nc3 Bc7 25. Qc2 Rd4 26. Ne2 Bc8 27. Nxd4 cxd4 28.
Bf2 c5 29. Rf1 f5 30. Bg3 Bd7 31. Rad1 f4 32. Bf2 g5 33. g4 fxg3 34. Bxg3 Bh3
35. Rf2 h5 36. Rfd2 h4 37. Bf2 Rf8 38. Rd3 Rf4 39. Kh1 Kh7 40. Rg1 Bd8 41. Qe2
Qf7 42. Qd1 Qh5 43. Be3 Qxf3+ 44. Qxf3 Rxf3 45. Bxg5 Rxd3 46. Bxd8 Re3 47. Bb6
Rxe4 48. Bxc5 Re2 49. Rd1 Bg4 50. h3 Bxh3 51. b4 Bf5 52. Bd6 d3 53. bxa5 h3 0-1
[/pgn]

I would appreciate engine analysis, even if some engines are unable to find the move.

Best, Lyudmil

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michiguel
Posts: 6246
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Re: Botvinnik mastery

Post by michiguel » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:43 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[D]1r1r2k1/2b1qp1p/b1p3p1/p1p1p3/2P1P3/1PN1BP2/P1Q3PP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 25

The position is from a game of Botvinnik.
Could you (your engines) find the winning continuation (and there is only one, I think)?

I think this position is very nice concerning strategy understanding.

Here the whole game:

[pgn][Event "Russia"]
[Site "Tournament, Moscow"]
[Date "1943.??.??"]
[White "Ljublinsky Victor (RUS)"]
[Black "Botvinnik M"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C77/05"]
[MLNrOfMoves "53"]
[MLFlags "000000"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. Bxc6 bxc6 6. Nc3 d6 7. d4 Nd7 8.
dxe5 dxe5 9. O-O Bd6 10. Ne2 O-O 11. Ng3 Rb8 12. b3 Re8 13. Be3 g6 14. c3 a5 15.
Qc2 Qe7 16. Rfd1 Nc5 17. Ne1 Ne6 18. Nd3 Nf4 19. f3 Ba6 20. c4 c5 21. Qd2 Nxd3
22. Qxd3 Red8 23. Ne2 c6 24. Nc3 Bc7 25. Qc2 Rd4 26. Ne2 Bc8 27. Nxd4 cxd4 28.
Bf2 c5 29. Rf1 f5 30. Bg3 Bd7 31. Rad1 f4 32. Bf2 g5 33. g4 fxg3 34. Bxg3 Bh3
35. Rf2 h5 36. Rfd2 h4 37. Bf2 Rf8 38. Rd3 Rf4 39. Kh1 Kh7 40. Rg1 Bd8 41. Qe2
Qf7 42. Qd1 Qh5 43. Be3 Qxf3+ 44. Qxf3 Rxf3 45. Bxg5 Rxd3 46. Bxd8 Re3 47. Bb6
Rxe4 48. Bxc5 Re2 49. Rd1 Bg4 50. h3 Bxh3 51. b4 Bf5 52. Bd6 d3 53. bxa5 h3 0-1
[/pgn]

I would appreciate engine analysis, even if some engines are unable to find the move.

Best, Lyudmil
A classic game.

Gaviota finds the famous Rd4 immediately

Code: Select all

       135   1:      0.0    -0.55  Rb4 14.Rxd8+ Bxd8
       424   2:      0.0    -0.40  Kg7 14.Na4
      1434   3:      0.0    -0.67  Bd6 14.Na4 Rb4
      2579   4:      0.0    -0.68  Bd6 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Rab1
      6213   5:      0.0    -0.70  Rxd1+ 14.Rxd1 Rd8 15.Rxd8+ Bxd8 16.a4
     16847   6:      0.0    -0.81  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Rd3 16.Bxc5
     25687   7:      0.0    -0.61  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
                                   Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 Bd6 18.Qe1
     31447   8       0.0    -0.72  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Kg7 16.Re1 Rd3
                                   17.Bxc5
     40080   8:      0.1    -0.72  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Kg7 16.Re1 Rd3
                                   17.Bxc5
     58472   9       0.1    -0.68  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bc8
                                   17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
     68689   9:      0.1    -0.68  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bc8
                                   17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
     89376  10       0.1    -0.67  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bb8
                                   17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
    102288  10:      0.1    -0.67  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bb8
                                   17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
    220433  11       0.3    -0.65  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rad1 Bd6
                                   17.Rb1 Bb8 18.Qf2 Rd3 19.Bxc5
    233800  11:      0.3    -0.65  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rad1 Bd6
                                   17.Rb1 Bb8 18.Qf2 Rd3 19.Bxc5
    444689  12       0.6    -0.63  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rf1 Kg7 16.Rab1 Bc8
                                   17.Rfe1 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Bxc5
    448987  12:      0.6    -0.63  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rf1 Kg7 16.Rab1 Bc8
                                   17.Rfe1 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Bxc5
    790178  13       1.2    -0.61  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bc8
                                   17.Qf2 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Nxc5 Rc3
    802238  13:      1.2    -0.61  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bc8
                                   17.Qf2 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Nxc5 Rc3
   1228742  14       1.8    -0.61  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bb8
                                   17.Qc3 Bc7 18.Qb2 h6 19.Rbc1 Rd3
                                   20.Bxc5
   1245463  14:      1.8    -0.61  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bb8
                                   17.Qc3 Bc7 18.Qb2 h6 19.Rbc1 Rd3
                                   20.Bxc5
   2065264  15       3.1    -0.70  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
                                   Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
                                   20.exf5 gxf5 21.Qe1
   2169106  15:      3.3    -0.70  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
                                   Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
                                   20.exf5 gxf5 21.Qe1
   2753139  16       4.2    -0.73  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
                                   Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
                                   20.Bd2 Qd6 21.Qe2
   3013067  16:      4.6    -0.73  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
                                   Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
                                   20.Bd2 Qd6 21.Qe2
   5659199  17       8.7    -0.73  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.a4 Kg7
                                   17.Re1 Bc8 18.Bxd4 exd4 19.e5 Qe7
                                   20.Nd3 Bf5 21.Qd2 Bxd3 22.Qxd3 Bxe5
   6064383  17:      9.3    -0.73  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.a4 Kg7
                                   17.Re1 Bc8 18.Bxd4 exd4 19.e5 Qe7
                                   20.Nd3 Bf5 21.Qd2 Bxd3 22.Qxd3 Bxe5
   9502347  18      14.9    -0.74  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 Kg7 18.a4 Qe7 19.Qd2 c5 20.Rf1
                                   Bb7 21.g3 h6 22.h4
  10110070  18:     15.8    -0.74  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 Kg7 18.a4 Qe7 19.Qd2 c5 20.Rf1
                                   Bb7 21.g3 h6 22.h4
  18088303  19      28.4    -0.80  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Bc8 16.Nd3 f5
                                   17.Bxd4 cxd4 18.Re1 c5 19.a4 Bb7 20.Qe2
                                   f4 21.Qc2 h6 22.Rf1 Kg7
  19653919  19:     30.8    -0.80  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Bc8 16.Nd3 f5
                                   17.Bxd4 cxd4 18.Re1 c5 19.a4 Bb7 20.Qe2
                                   f4 21.Qc2 h6 22.Rf1 Kg7
  32143386  20      50.6    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
  33966587  20:     53.4    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
  48746654  21      77.3    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
  51718213  21:     81.9    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
  62560460  22      99.1    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3

  69316565  22:    109.4    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
  99742544  23     158.5    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
 117944065  23:    186.0    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3

Miguel

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lucasart
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Re: Botvinnik mastery

Post by lucasart » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:56 pm

Lyudmil,

How can you be so sure that Rd4 is winning. Gaviota may agree with Rd4, but still shows a score of -0.79 for Black, so it is far from winning.

Besides, even if Rd4 is played, Bxd4 is fine according to DiscoCheck:

Code: Select all

info score cp 133 depth 24 nodes 169971889 time 96416 pv e3d4 c5d4 c3a4 c6c5 a4b2 a6b7 d1e1 b7c6 a1d1 c7d8 c2e2 e7d6 g2g3 a5a4 b2a4 c6a4 b3a4 b8b4 d1b1 b4a4 e1d1 a4a3 d1d3 a3a4
(+133cp for white)

Stockfish agrees with Na4 from Gaviota, but completely disagrees that Rd4 is winning:

Code: Select all

info depth 32 seldepth 39 score cp 127 nodes 408935605 nps 8421937 time 48556 multipv 1 pv c3a4 a6c8 a1c1 h7h5 a4b2 c8e6 e3d4 c5d4 c4c5 g8g7 c2e2 b8b5 b2d3 b5b8 e2f2 f7f6 c1b1 b8a8 f2c2 a8b8 d1f1 h5h4 f1d1 h4h3 g2g3 b8a8 g1f2 f6f5 e4f5 e6f5 g3g4 f5e6 b1c1 e5e4
White is still significantly better.

Objectively speaking, it doesn't look like Rd4 is the winning move, but rather that white blundered in the game, and didn't play the correct Na4 or Bxe4 after Rd4.
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.

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michiguel
Posts: 6246
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Re: Botvinnik mastery

Post by michiguel » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:58 pm

lucasart wrote:Lyudmil,

How can you be so sure that Rd4 is winning. Gaviota may agree with Rd4, but still shows a score of -0.79 for Black, so it is far from winning.

Besides, even if Rd4 is played, Bxd4 is fine according to DiscoCheck:

Code: Select all

info score cp 133 depth 24 nodes 169971889 time 96416 pv e3d4 c5d4 c3a4 c6c5 a4b2 a6b7 d1e1 b7c6 a1d1 c7d8 c2e2 e7d6 g2g3 a5a4 b2a4 c6a4 b3a4 b8b4 d1b1 b4a4 e1d1 a4a3 d1d3 a3a4
This is after 25.. Rd4 26. Bxd4, so it's +133cp for white.

Stockfish agrees with Na4 from Gaviota, but completely disagrees that Rd4 is winning:

Code: Select all

info depth 32 seldepth 39 score cp 127 nodes 408935605 nps 8421937 time 48556 multipv 1 pv c3a4 a6c8 a1c1 h7h5 a4b2 c8e6 e3d4 c5d4 c4c5 g8g7 c2e2 b8b5 b2d3 b5b8 e2f2 f7f6 c1b1 b8a8 f2c2 a8b8 d1f1 h5h4 f1d1 h4h3 g2g3 b8a8 g1f2 f6f5 e4f5 e6f5 g3g4 f5e6 b1c1 e5e4
White is still significantly better.

Objectively speaking, it doesn't look like Rd4 is the winning move, but rather that white blundered in the game, and didn't play the correct Na4 or Bxe4 after Rd4.
Rd4 is not winning, but it is a classic positional move. White messed up later under the pressure. Botvinnik was my favorite player when I was a young player.

Miguel

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6033
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Botvinnik mastery

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:12 pm

michiguel wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[D]1r1r2k1/2b1qp1p/b1p3p1/p1p1p3/2P1P3/1PN1BP2/P1Q3PP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 25

The position is from a game of Botvinnik.
Could you (your engines) find the winning continuation (and there is only one, I think)?

I think this position is very nice concerning strategy understanding.

Here the whole game:

[pgn][Event "Russia"]
[Site "Tournament, Moscow"]
[Date "1943.??.??"]
[White "Ljublinsky Victor (RUS)"]
[Black "Botvinnik M"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C77/05"]
[MLNrOfMoves "53"]
[MLFlags "000000"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. Bxc6 bxc6 6. Nc3 d6 7. d4 Nd7 8.
dxe5 dxe5 9. O-O Bd6 10. Ne2 O-O 11. Ng3 Rb8 12. b3 Re8 13. Be3 g6 14. c3 a5 15.
Qc2 Qe7 16. Rfd1 Nc5 17. Ne1 Ne6 18. Nd3 Nf4 19. f3 Ba6 20. c4 c5 21. Qd2 Nxd3
22. Qxd3 Red8 23. Ne2 c6 24. Nc3 Bc7 25. Qc2 Rd4 26. Ne2 Bc8 27. Nxd4 cxd4 28.
Bf2 c5 29. Rf1 f5 30. Bg3 Bd7 31. Rad1 f4 32. Bf2 g5 33. g4 fxg3 34. Bxg3 Bh3
35. Rf2 h5 36. Rfd2 h4 37. Bf2 Rf8 38. Rd3 Rf4 39. Kh1 Kh7 40. Rg1 Bd8 41. Qe2
Qf7 42. Qd1 Qh5 43. Be3 Qxf3+ 44. Qxf3 Rxf3 45. Bxg5 Rxd3 46. Bxd8 Re3 47. Bb6
Rxe4 48. Bxc5 Re2 49. Rd1 Bg4 50. h3 Bxh3 51. b4 Bf5 52. Bd6 d3 53. bxa5 h3 0-1
[/pgn]

I would appreciate engine analysis, even if some engines are unable to find the move.

Best, Lyudmil
A classic game.

Gaviota finds the famous Rd4 immediately

Code: Select all

       135   1:      0.0    -0.55  Rb4 14.Rxd8+ Bxd8
       424   2:      0.0    -0.40  Kg7 14.Na4
      1434   3:      0.0    -0.67  Bd6 14.Na4 Rb4
      2579   4:      0.0    -0.68  Bd6 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Rab1
      6213   5:      0.0    -0.70  Rxd1+ 14.Rxd1 Rd8 15.Rxd8+ Bxd8 16.a4
     16847   6:      0.0    -0.81  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Rd3 16.Bxc5
     25687   7:      0.0    -0.61  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
                                   Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 Bd6 18.Qe1
     31447   8       0.0    -0.72  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Kg7 16.Re1 Rd3
                                   17.Bxc5
     40080   8:      0.1    -0.72  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Kg7 16.Re1 Rd3
                                   17.Bxc5
     58472   9       0.1    -0.68  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bc8
                                   17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
     68689   9:      0.1    -0.68  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bc8
                                   17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
     89376  10       0.1    -0.67  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bb8
                                   17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
    102288  10:      0.1    -0.67  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bb8
                                   17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
    220433  11       0.3    -0.65  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rad1 Bd6
                                   17.Rb1 Bb8 18.Qf2 Rd3 19.Bxc5
    233800  11:      0.3    -0.65  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rad1 Bd6
                                   17.Rb1 Bb8 18.Qf2 Rd3 19.Bxc5
    444689  12       0.6    -0.63  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rf1 Kg7 16.Rab1 Bc8
                                   17.Rfe1 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Bxc5
    448987  12:      0.6    -0.63  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rf1 Kg7 16.Rab1 Bc8
                                   17.Rfe1 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Bxc5
    790178  13       1.2    -0.61  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bc8
                                   17.Qf2 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Nxc5 Rc3
    802238  13:      1.2    -0.61  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bc8
                                   17.Qf2 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Nxc5 Rc3
   1228742  14       1.8    -0.61  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bb8
                                   17.Qc3 Bc7 18.Qb2 h6 19.Rbc1 Rd3
                                   20.Bxc5
   1245463  14:      1.8    -0.61  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bb8
                                   17.Qc3 Bc7 18.Qb2 h6 19.Rbc1 Rd3
                                   20.Bxc5
   2065264  15       3.1    -0.70  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
                                   Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
                                   20.exf5 gxf5 21.Qe1
   2169106  15:      3.3    -0.70  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
                                   Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
                                   20.exf5 gxf5 21.Qe1
   2753139  16       4.2    -0.73  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
                                   Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
                                   20.Bd2 Qd6 21.Qe2
   3013067  16:      4.6    -0.73  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
                                   Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
                                   20.Bd2 Qd6 21.Qe2
   5659199  17       8.7    -0.73  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.a4 Kg7
                                   17.Re1 Bc8 18.Bxd4 exd4 19.e5 Qe7
                                   20.Nd3 Bf5 21.Qd2 Bxd3 22.Qxd3 Bxe5
   6064383  17:      9.3    -0.73  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.a4 Kg7
                                   17.Re1 Bc8 18.Bxd4 exd4 19.e5 Qe7
                                   20.Nd3 Bf5 21.Qd2 Bxd3 22.Qxd3 Bxe5
   9502347  18      14.9    -0.74  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 Kg7 18.a4 Qe7 19.Qd2 c5 20.Rf1
                                   Bb7 21.g3 h6 22.h4
  10110070  18:     15.8    -0.74  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 Kg7 18.a4 Qe7 19.Qd2 c5 20.Rf1
                                   Bb7 21.g3 h6 22.h4
  18088303  19      28.4    -0.80  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Bc8 16.Nd3 f5
                                   17.Bxd4 cxd4 18.Re1 c5 19.a4 Bb7 20.Qe2
                                   f4 21.Qc2 h6 22.Rf1 Kg7
  19653919  19:     30.8    -0.80  Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Bc8 16.Nd3 f5
                                   17.Bxd4 cxd4 18.Re1 c5 19.a4 Bb7 20.Qe2
                                   f4 21.Qc2 h6 22.Rf1 Kg7
  32143386  20      50.6    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
  33966587  20:     53.4    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
  48746654  21      77.3    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
  51718213  21:     81.9    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
  62560460  22      99.1    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3

  69316565  22:    109.4    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
  99742544  23     158.5    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3
 117944065  23:    186.0    -0.79  Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
                                   17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
                                   Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
                                   24.Ra4 Bc3

Miguel
Miguel, Gaviota absolutely surprises me. (I suppose -0.79 is from white's point of view)
I might have thought that most engines will not see easily the positional sac, as there is nothing immediate, but Gaviota baffles me. How on Earth did you manage to do so with Gaviota?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6033
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Re: Botvinnik mastery

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:30 pm

lucasart wrote:Lyudmil,

How can you be so sure that Rd4 is winning. Gaviota may agree with Rd4, but still shows a score of -0.79 for Black, so it is far from winning.

Besides, even if Rd4 is played, Bxd4 is fine according to DiscoCheck:

Code: Select all

info score cp 133 depth 24 nodes 169971889 time 96416 pv e3d4 c5d4 c3a4 c6c5 a4b2 a6b7 d1e1 b7c6 a1d1 c7d8 c2e2 e7d6 g2g3 a5a4 b2a4 c6a4 b3a4 b8b4 d1b1 b4a4 e1d1 a4a3 d1d3 a3a4
(+133cp for white)

Stockfish agrees with Na4 from Gaviota, but completely disagrees that Rd4 is winning:

Code: Select all

info depth 32 seldepth 39 score cp 127 nodes 408935605 nps 8421937 time 48556 multipv 1 pv c3a4 a6c8 a1c1 h7h5 a4b2 c8e6 e3d4 c5d4 c4c5 g8g7 c2e2 b8b5 b2d3 b5b8 e2f2 f7f6 c1b1 b8a8 f2c2 a8b8 d1f1 h5h4 f1d1 h4h3 g2g3 b8a8 g1f2 f6f5 e4f5 e6f5 g3g4 f5e6 b1c1 e5e4
White is still significantly better.

Objectively speaking, it doesn't look like Rd4 is the winning move, but rather that white blundered in the game, and didn't play the correct Na4 or Bxe4 after Rd4.
I am absolutely sure Rd4 is winning. I think that objectively in the diagrammed position black is some 30cps in advantage. And I did not see any obvious mistake that Lyublinski made.

It is all forceful, black plays f7-f5 (white can not capture, because black builds a tremendous center), then f4, and other pawns will follow in the attack. I think the rpoblem with engines is that they do not consider appropriately backward pawns. b3 is a backward pawn (to remain there for ever, enormous penalty, close to a full pawn), it can not advance further, as black's pawn and piece control of the b4 square is significantly better than white's. So, in actual fact, black is already a pawn up - the 2 black a5 and c5 pawns fully neutralise the 3 white a,b,c pawns. When you consider the pawn space advantage black will soon enjoy, the assessment of the position might be unequivocal.

Lucas, please, do not get angry with me. Instead, do everything possible, tune and fine-tune, add knowledge, reduce and extend, but in order to have a fine positional playing engine, make so that Disco picks up Rd4 very fast as its only option :D

Best, Lyudmil

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lucasart
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Re: Botvinnik mastery

Post by lucasart » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:35 pm

michiguel wrote: Rd4 is not winning, but it is a classic positional move. White messed up later under the pressure. Botvinnik was my favorite player when I was a young player.

Miguel
Yes, that makes much more sense.
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.

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sje
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Re: Botvinnik mastery

Post by sje » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:49 pm

Symbolic locks on to 25... Rd4 after three seconds:

Code: Select all

[-1.556/8/3.097/1,827,831/0] 25... Rd4 26 Qf2 Bd6 27 Re1 Bxc4 28 bxc4 Rxc4
After 195 seconds:

Code: Select all

[-1.548/14/3:15.451/138,842,649/0] 25... Rd4 26 Na4 Rbd8 27 Rf1 Bc8 28 Bxd4 exd4 29 f4 Bg4 30 Qd3 Re8 31 e5 Qf8

Red Hood
Posts: 101
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Re: Botvinnik mastery

Post by Red Hood » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:55 pm

Houdini 3 x64 STD

FEN: 1r1r2k1/2b1qp1p/b1p3p1/p1p1p3/2P1P3/1PN1BP2/P1Q3PP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 25

Houdini 3 x64:
8/16 00:00 15,777 1,753,000 +0.54 Kg8-g7 Nc3-a4 Rd8-d4 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qc2-d2 Rb8-d8 Ra1-c1 d4-d3 c4-c5
9/16 00:00 25,399 1,693,000 +0.53 Kg8-g7 Nc3-a4 Rd8-d4 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qc2-d2 Rb8-d8 Ra1-c1 h7-h6 Rc1-b1
10/20 00:00 49,687 1,911,000 +0.59 Kg8-g7 Nc3-a4 Rd8-d4 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qc2-d2 Rb8-d8 Ra1-c1 h7-h6 Rc1-b1 Ba6-b7 c4-c5
10/20 00:00 87,603 1,904,000 +0.56 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Ba6-b7 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2-g3 Kg8-g7 Rd1-d3 Rb8-e8 Ra1-d1 Qe7-e5 f3-f4
11/20 00:00 113,985 1,753,000 +0.56 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Ba6-b7 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2-g3 Kg8-g7 Rd1-d3 Rb8-e8 Ra1-d1 Qe7-e5 f3-f4
12/23 00:00 217,836 2,178,000 +0.55 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Rb8-d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2-g3 Ba6-c8 Qc2-d3 Kg8-g7 Rd1-d2 Rd8-e8 Ra1-d1 Qe7-e5 f3-f4
13/23 00:00 333,461 2,434,000 +0.55 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Rb8-d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2-g3 Ba6-c8 Qc2-d3 Kg8-g7 Rd1-d2 Rd8-e8 Ra1-d1 Qe7-e5 f3-f4
14/27+ 00:00 787,284 2,801,000 +0.63 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4
14/27 00:00 1,120,000 2,931,000 +0.53 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Rb8-d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2-g3 Ba6-c8 Qc2-d3 Kg8-g7 Ra1-c1 Rd8-e8 Rc1-c2 Bc8-h3 Rc2-d2 Qe7-e5 f3-f4
15/29+ 00:00 1,205,747 2,926,000 +0.61 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4
15/29 00:00 1,837,034 3,036,000 +0.60 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Rb8-d8 Na4-b2 Rd4-d6 Rd1xd6 Bc7xd6 Ra1-d1 Kg8-g7 Nb2-a4 Ba6-b7 Qc2-f2 Qe7-c7 Rd1-d2 Bd6-e7 Be3xc5 Rd8xd2 Qf2xd2 Qc7-d8 Qd2xd8 Be7xd8
16/32 00:01 2,854,972 3,093,000 +0.63 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Ba6-c8 Ra1-c1 Kg8-g7 Qc2-f2 Bc7-d6 Rd1-d2 f7-f5 Rc1-d1 f5xe4 f3xe4 Bc8-g4 Rd1-f1 Rb8-f8 Qf2xf8+ Qe7xf8 Be3xd4 Bg4-f5 e4xf5 c5xd4 f5xg6
17/37 00:01 4,493,023 3,135,000 +0.64 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Ba6-c8 Qc2-e2 Bc8-e6 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qe2-d2 Kg8-g7 Rd1-e1 Rb8-d8 f3-f4 Rd8-e8 Na4-b2 Be6-g4 h2-h3 Bg4-c8 e4-e5 Bc8-f5 Nb2-d3
18/42 00:02 8,036,095 3,157,000 +0.66 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Ba6-c8 Qc2-e2 Bc8-e6 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qe2-d2 Kg8-g7 Rd1-e1 Rb8-d8 Ra1-d1 Be6-c8 e4-e5 Bc8-f5 h2-h3 Bf5-c8 f3-f4 Bc8-f5 Re1-f1
19/46+ 00:04 15,277,520 3,206,000 +0.76 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4
19/46 00:08 26,626,555 3,260,000 +0.81 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Ba6-c8 Na4-b2 Kg8-g7 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Nb2-d3 Bc8-e6 Ra1-b1 Rb8-a8 Rb1-c1 Ra8-d8 Qc2-d2 Rd8-a8 Qd2-c2 Ra8-d8
20/46 00:14 46,324,353 3,204,000 +0.79 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Rb8-d8 Na4-b2 Kg8-g7 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Nb2-d3 Bc7-d6 Qc2-d2 Qe7-c7 Qd2-g5 f7-f6 Qg5-d2 Rd8-e8 Ra1-b1 Bd6-a3 Rd1-f1 Ba6-c8 Rb1-d1 Re8-d8 Rf1-f2 Bc8-e6 c4-c5
21/54 00:21 67,610,306 3,206,000 +0.83 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Rb8-d8 Na4-b2 Kg8-g7 Nb2-d3 Bc7-d6 Qc2-f2 Ba6-c8 Ra1-c1 Bd6-c7 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qf2-d2 Bc8-e6 c4-c5 Rd8-a8 Qd2-c2 Be6-c8 Qc2-f2 Bc8-a6 Rc1-c2 Ra8-d8 Qf2-d2 f7-f6 h2-h3 Rd8-a8 Rc2-c1
22/54 00:38 125,524,481 3,234,000 +0.78 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Kg8-g7 Na4-b2 Bc7-d6 Nb2-d3 f7-f6 Qc2-d2 Qe7-c7 Ra1-b1 Rb8-d8 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Rd1-f1 Bd6-a3 Rb1-d1 Ba6-c8 Rf1-f2 Rd8-e8 Rf2-f1 Re8-d8 Rf1-f2
22/54 00:44 142,944,249 3,248,000 +0.78 Rd8-d4 Nc3-a4 Kg8-g7 Na4-b2 Bc7-d6 Nb2-d3 f7-f6 Qc2-d2 Qe7-c7 Ra1-b1 Rb8-d8 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Rd1-f1 Rd8-e8 Rb1-d1 Ba6-c8 Qd2-f2 Bd6-a3 Qf2-d2 Re8-d8 Rf1-f2 Rd8-e8 Rd1-f1 h7-h6 Rf1-d1 Bc8-e6 c4-c5

43 seconds of analysis. Find's Rd4 right away.

Regards
There is always a light at end of the tunnel. Just make sure it isn't a train!

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Botvinnik mastery

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:55 pm

Now, that I am looking at it more closely, it might seem that white could have achieved a draw.

[D]1r4k1/2bbq2p/8/p1p1p1p1/2PpPp2/1P3P2/P1Q2BPP/3R1RK1 w - - 0 33

This is a position from the game, where white should be losing.

[D]1r4k1/2bbq2p/8/p1p1p1p1/2PpPp2/1P1K1P2/P1Q2BPP/3R1R2 w - - 0 33

And this is a tentative position, with the white king transferred to d3 instead of g1. I think this is already most probably a draw. And it should have been possible to arrange things in such a way that the king finds shelter on d3. With a fully closed center, the king has nothing to fear on d3, besides, it blocks the passer. On g1 its position is dangerous. So that maybe white had a draw after all, but Rd4 is still spectacular.

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