Botvinnik mastery
Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

 Posts: 6033
 Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am
Botvinnik mastery
[D]1r1r2k1/2b1qp1p/b1p3p1/p1p1p3/2P1P3/1PN1BP2/P1Q3PP/R2R2K1 b   0 25
The position is from a game of Botvinnik.
Could you (your engines) find the winning continuation (and there is only one, I think)?
I think this position is very nice concerning strategy understanding.
Here the whole game:
[pgn][Event "Russia"]
[Site "Tournament, Moscow"]
[Date "1943.??.??"]
[White "Ljublinsky Victor (RUS)"]
[Black "Botvinnik M"]
[Result "01"]
[ECO "C77/05"]
[MLNrOfMoves "53"]
[MLFlags "000000"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. Bxc6 bxc6 6. Nc3 d6 7. d4 Nd7 8.
dxe5 dxe5 9. OO Bd6 10. Ne2 OO 11. Ng3 Rb8 12. b3 Re8 13. Be3 g6 14. c3 a5 15.
Qc2 Qe7 16. Rfd1 Nc5 17. Ne1 Ne6 18. Nd3 Nf4 19. f3 Ba6 20. c4 c5 21. Qd2 Nxd3
22. Qxd3 Red8 23. Ne2 c6 24. Nc3 Bc7 25. Qc2 Rd4 26. Ne2 Bc8 27. Nxd4 cxd4 28.
Bf2 c5 29. Rf1 f5 30. Bg3 Bd7 31. Rad1 f4 32. Bf2 g5 33. g4 fxg3 34. Bxg3 Bh3
35. Rf2 h5 36. Rfd2 h4 37. Bf2 Rf8 38. Rd3 Rf4 39. Kh1 Kh7 40. Rg1 Bd8 41. Qe2
Qf7 42. Qd1 Qh5 43. Be3 Qxf3+ 44. Qxf3 Rxf3 45. Bxg5 Rxd3 46. Bxd8 Re3 47. Bb6
Rxe4 48. Bxc5 Re2 49. Rd1 Bg4 50. h3 Bxh3 51. b4 Bf5 52. Bd6 d3 53. bxa5 h3 01
[/pgn]
I would appreciate engine analysis, even if some engines are unable to find the move.
Best, Lyudmil
The position is from a game of Botvinnik.
Could you (your engines) find the winning continuation (and there is only one, I think)?
I think this position is very nice concerning strategy understanding.
Here the whole game:
[pgn][Event "Russia"]
[Site "Tournament, Moscow"]
[Date "1943.??.??"]
[White "Ljublinsky Victor (RUS)"]
[Black "Botvinnik M"]
[Result "01"]
[ECO "C77/05"]
[MLNrOfMoves "53"]
[MLFlags "000000"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. Bxc6 bxc6 6. Nc3 d6 7. d4 Nd7 8.
dxe5 dxe5 9. OO Bd6 10. Ne2 OO 11. Ng3 Rb8 12. b3 Re8 13. Be3 g6 14. c3 a5 15.
Qc2 Qe7 16. Rfd1 Nc5 17. Ne1 Ne6 18. Nd3 Nf4 19. f3 Ba6 20. c4 c5 21. Qd2 Nxd3
22. Qxd3 Red8 23. Ne2 c6 24. Nc3 Bc7 25. Qc2 Rd4 26. Ne2 Bc8 27. Nxd4 cxd4 28.
Bf2 c5 29. Rf1 f5 30. Bg3 Bd7 31. Rad1 f4 32. Bf2 g5 33. g4 fxg3 34. Bxg3 Bh3
35. Rf2 h5 36. Rfd2 h4 37. Bf2 Rf8 38. Rd3 Rf4 39. Kh1 Kh7 40. Rg1 Bd8 41. Qe2
Qf7 42. Qd1 Qh5 43. Be3 Qxf3+ 44. Qxf3 Rxf3 45. Bxg5 Rxd3 46. Bxd8 Re3 47. Bb6
Rxe4 48. Bxc5 Re2 49. Rd1 Bg4 50. h3 Bxh3 51. b4 Bf5 52. Bd6 d3 53. bxa5 h3 01
[/pgn]
I would appreciate engine analysis, even if some engines are unable to find the move.
Best, Lyudmil
Re: Botvinnik mastery
A classic game.Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[D]1r1r2k1/2b1qp1p/b1p3p1/p1p1p3/2P1P3/1PN1BP2/P1Q3PP/R2R2K1 b   0 25
The position is from a game of Botvinnik.
Could you (your engines) find the winning continuation (and there is only one, I think)?
I think this position is very nice concerning strategy understanding.
Here the whole game:
[pgn][Event "Russia"]
[Site "Tournament, Moscow"]
[Date "1943.??.??"]
[White "Ljublinsky Victor (RUS)"]
[Black "Botvinnik M"]
[Result "01"]
[ECO "C77/05"]
[MLNrOfMoves "53"]
[MLFlags "000000"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. Bxc6 bxc6 6. Nc3 d6 7. d4 Nd7 8.
dxe5 dxe5 9. OO Bd6 10. Ne2 OO 11. Ng3 Rb8 12. b3 Re8 13. Be3 g6 14. c3 a5 15.
Qc2 Qe7 16. Rfd1 Nc5 17. Ne1 Ne6 18. Nd3 Nf4 19. f3 Ba6 20. c4 c5 21. Qd2 Nxd3
22. Qxd3 Red8 23. Ne2 c6 24. Nc3 Bc7 25. Qc2 Rd4 26. Ne2 Bc8 27. Nxd4 cxd4 28.
Bf2 c5 29. Rf1 f5 30. Bg3 Bd7 31. Rad1 f4 32. Bf2 g5 33. g4 fxg3 34. Bxg3 Bh3
35. Rf2 h5 36. Rfd2 h4 37. Bf2 Rf8 38. Rd3 Rf4 39. Kh1 Kh7 40. Rg1 Bd8 41. Qe2
Qf7 42. Qd1 Qh5 43. Be3 Qxf3+ 44. Qxf3 Rxf3 45. Bxg5 Rxd3 46. Bxd8 Re3 47. Bb6
Rxe4 48. Bxc5 Re2 49. Rd1 Bg4 50. h3 Bxh3 51. b4 Bf5 52. Bd6 d3 53. bxa5 h3 01
[/pgn]
I would appreciate engine analysis, even if some engines are unable to find the move.
Best, Lyudmil
Gaviota finds the famous Rd4 immediately
Code: Select all
135 1: 0.0 0.55 Rb4 14.Rxd8+ Bxd8
424 2: 0.0 0.40 Kg7 14.Na4
1434 3: 0.0 0.67 Bd6 14.Na4 Rb4
2579 4: 0.0 0.68 Bd6 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Rab1
6213 5: 0.0 0.70 Rxd1+ 14.Rxd1 Rd8 15.Rxd8+ Bxd8 16.a4
16847 6: 0.0 0.81 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Rd3 16.Bxc5
25687 7: 0.0 0.61 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 Bd6 18.Qe1
31447 8 0.0 0.72 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Kg7 16.Re1 Rd3
17.Bxc5
40080 8: 0.1 0.72 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Kg7 16.Re1 Rd3
17.Bxc5
58472 9 0.1 0.68 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bc8
17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
68689 9: 0.1 0.68 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bc8
17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
89376 10 0.1 0.67 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bb8
17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
102288 10: 0.1 0.67 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bb8
17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5
220433 11 0.3 0.65 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rad1 Bd6
17.Rb1 Bb8 18.Qf2 Rd3 19.Bxc5
233800 11: 0.3 0.65 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rad1 Bd6
17.Rb1 Bb8 18.Qf2 Rd3 19.Bxc5
444689 12 0.6 0.63 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rf1 Kg7 16.Rab1 Bc8
17.Rfe1 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Bxc5
448987 12: 0.6 0.63 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rf1 Kg7 16.Rab1 Bc8
17.Rfe1 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Bxc5
790178 13 1.2 0.61 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bc8
17.Qf2 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Nxc5 Rc3
802238 13: 1.2 0.61 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bc8
17.Qf2 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Nxc5 Rc3
1228742 14 1.8 0.61 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bb8
17.Qc3 Bc7 18.Qb2 h6 19.Rbc1 Rd3
20.Bxc5
1245463 14: 1.8 0.61 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bb8
17.Qc3 Bc7 18.Qb2 h6 19.Rbc1 Rd3
20.Bxc5
2065264 15 3.1 0.70 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
20.exf5 gxf5 21.Qe1
2169106 15: 3.3 0.70 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
20.exf5 gxf5 21.Qe1
2753139 16 4.2 0.73 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
20.Bd2 Qd6 21.Qe2
3013067 16: 4.6 0.73 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1
Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8
20.Bd2 Qd6 21.Qe2
5659199 17 8.7 0.73 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.a4 Kg7
17.Re1 Bc8 18.Bxd4 exd4 19.e5 Qe7
20.Nd3 Bf5 21.Qd2 Bxd3 22.Qxd3 Bxe5
6064383 17: 9.3 0.73 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.a4 Kg7
17.Re1 Bc8 18.Bxd4 exd4 19.e5 Qe7
20.Nd3 Bf5 21.Qd2 Bxd3 22.Qxd3 Bxe5
9502347 18 14.9 0.74 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
17.Nd3 Kg7 18.a4 Qe7 19.Qd2 c5 20.Rf1
Bb7 21.g3 h6 22.h4
10110070 18: 15.8 0.74 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
17.Nd3 Kg7 18.a4 Qe7 19.Qd2 c5 20.Rf1
Bb7 21.g3 h6 22.h4
18088303 19 28.4 0.80 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Bc8 16.Nd3 f5
17.Bxd4 cxd4 18.Re1 c5 19.a4 Bb7 20.Qe2
f4 21.Qc2 h6 22.Rf1 Kg7
19653919 19: 30.8 0.80 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Bc8 16.Nd3 f5
17.Bxd4 cxd4 18.Re1 c5 19.a4 Bb7 20.Qe2
f4 21.Qc2 h6 22.Rf1 Kg7
32143386 20 50.6 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
24.Ra4 Bc3
33966587 20: 53.4 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
24.Ra4 Bc3
48746654 21 77.3 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
24.Ra4 Bc3
51718213 21: 81.9 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
24.Ra4 Bc3
62560460 22 99.1 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
24.Ra4 Bc3
69316565 22: 109.4 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
24.Ra4 Bc3
99742544 23 158.5 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
24.Ra4 Bc3
117944065 23: 186.0 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4
17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1
Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5
24.Ra4 Bc3
Re: Botvinnik mastery
Lyudmil,
How can you be so sure that Rd4 is winning. Gaviota may agree with Rd4, but still shows a score of 0.79 for Black, so it is far from winning.
Besides, even if Rd4 is played, Bxd4 is fine according to DiscoCheck:
(+133cp for white)
Stockfish agrees with Na4 from Gaviota, but completely disagrees that Rd4 is winning:
White is still significantly better.
Objectively speaking, it doesn't look like Rd4 is the winning move, but rather that white blundered in the game, and didn't play the correct Na4 or Bxe4 after Rd4.
How can you be so sure that Rd4 is winning. Gaviota may agree with Rd4, but still shows a score of 0.79 for Black, so it is far from winning.
Besides, even if Rd4 is played, Bxd4 is fine according to DiscoCheck:
Code: Select all
info score cp 133 depth 24 nodes 169971889 time 96416 pv e3d4 c5d4 c3a4 c6c5 a4b2 a6b7 d1e1 b7c6 a1d1 c7d8 c2e2 e7d6 g2g3 a5a4 b2a4 c6a4 b3a4 b8b4 d1b1 b4a4 e1d1 a4a3 d1d3 a3a4
Stockfish agrees with Na4 from Gaviota, but completely disagrees that Rd4 is winning:
Code: Select all
info depth 32 seldepth 39 score cp 127 nodes 408935605 nps 8421937 time 48556 multipv 1 pv c3a4 a6c8 a1c1 h7h5 a4b2 c8e6 e3d4 c5d4 c4c5 g8g7 c2e2 b8b5 b2d3 b5b8 e2f2 f7f6 c1b1 b8a8 f2c2 a8b8 d1f1 h5h4 f1d1 h4h3 g2g3 b8a8 g1f2 f6f5 e4f5 e6f5 g3g4 f5e6 b1c1 e5e4
Objectively speaking, it doesn't look like Rd4 is the winning move, but rather that white blundered in the game, and didn't play the correct Na4 or Bxe4 after Rd4.
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.
Re: Botvinnik mastery
Rd4 is not winning, but it is a classic positional move. White messed up later under the pressure. Botvinnik was my favorite player when I was a young player.lucasart wrote:Lyudmil,
How can you be so sure that Rd4 is winning. Gaviota may agree with Rd4, but still shows a score of 0.79 for Black, so it is far from winning.
Besides, even if Rd4 is played, Bxd4 is fine according to DiscoCheck:This is after 25.. Rd4 26. Bxd4, so it's +133cp for white.Code: Select all
info score cp 133 depth 24 nodes 169971889 time 96416 pv e3d4 c5d4 c3a4 c6c5 a4b2 a6b7 d1e1 b7c6 a1d1 c7d8 c2e2 e7d6 g2g3 a5a4 b2a4 c6a4 b3a4 b8b4 d1b1 b4a4 e1d1 a4a3 d1d3 a3a4
Stockfish agrees with Na4 from Gaviota, but completely disagrees that Rd4 is winning:White is still significantly better.Code: Select all
info depth 32 seldepth 39 score cp 127 nodes 408935605 nps 8421937 time 48556 multipv 1 pv c3a4 a6c8 a1c1 h7h5 a4b2 c8e6 e3d4 c5d4 c4c5 g8g7 c2e2 b8b5 b2d3 b5b8 e2f2 f7f6 c1b1 b8a8 f2c2 a8b8 d1f1 h5h4 f1d1 h4h3 g2g3 b8a8 g1f2 f6f5 e4f5 e6f5 g3g4 f5e6 b1c1 e5e4
Objectively speaking, it doesn't look like Rd4 is the winning move, but rather that white blundered in the game, and didn't play the correct Na4 or Bxe4 after Rd4.
Miguel

 Posts: 6033
 Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am
Re: Botvinnik mastery
Miguel, Gaviota absolutely surprises me. (I suppose 0.79 is from white's point of view)michiguel wrote:A classic game.Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[D]1r1r2k1/2b1qp1p/b1p3p1/p1p1p3/2P1P3/1PN1BP2/P1Q3PP/R2R2K1 b   0 25
The position is from a game of Botvinnik.
Could you (your engines) find the winning continuation (and there is only one, I think)?
I think this position is very nice concerning strategy understanding.
Here the whole game:
[pgn][Event "Russia"]
[Site "Tournament, Moscow"]
[Date "1943.??.??"]
[White "Ljublinsky Victor (RUS)"]
[Black "Botvinnik M"]
[Result "01"]
[ECO "C77/05"]
[MLNrOfMoves "53"]
[MLFlags "000000"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. Bxc6 bxc6 6. Nc3 d6 7. d4 Nd7 8.
dxe5 dxe5 9. OO Bd6 10. Ne2 OO 11. Ng3 Rb8 12. b3 Re8 13. Be3 g6 14. c3 a5 15.
Qc2 Qe7 16. Rfd1 Nc5 17. Ne1 Ne6 18. Nd3 Nf4 19. f3 Ba6 20. c4 c5 21. Qd2 Nxd3
22. Qxd3 Red8 23. Ne2 c6 24. Nc3 Bc7 25. Qc2 Rd4 26. Ne2 Bc8 27. Nxd4 cxd4 28.
Bf2 c5 29. Rf1 f5 30. Bg3 Bd7 31. Rad1 f4 32. Bf2 g5 33. g4 fxg3 34. Bxg3 Bh3
35. Rf2 h5 36. Rfd2 h4 37. Bf2 Rf8 38. Rd3 Rf4 39. Kh1 Kh7 40. Rg1 Bd8 41. Qe2
Qf7 42. Qd1 Qh5 43. Be3 Qxf3+ 44. Qxf3 Rxf3 45. Bxg5 Rxd3 46. Bxd8 Re3 47. Bb6
Rxe4 48. Bxc5 Re2 49. Rd1 Bg4 50. h3 Bxh3 51. b4 Bf5 52. Bd6 d3 53. bxa5 h3 01
[/pgn]
I would appreciate engine analysis, even if some engines are unable to find the move.
Best, Lyudmil
Gaviota finds the famous Rd4 immediately
MiguelCode: Select all
135 1: 0.0 0.55 Rb4 14.Rxd8+ Bxd8 424 2: 0.0 0.40 Kg7 14.Na4 1434 3: 0.0 0.67 Bd6 14.Na4 Rb4 2579 4: 0.0 0.68 Bd6 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Rab1 6213 5: 0.0 0.70 Rxd1+ 14.Rxd1 Rd8 15.Rxd8+ Bxd8 16.a4 16847 6: 0.0 0.81 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Rd3 16.Bxc5 25687 7: 0.0 0.61 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 Bd6 18.Qe1 31447 8 0.0 0.72 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Kg7 16.Re1 Rd3 17.Bxc5 40080 8: 0.1 0.72 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.h3 Kg7 16.Re1 Rd3 17.Bxc5 58472 9 0.1 0.68 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bc8 17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5 68689 9: 0.1 0.68 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bc8 17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5 89376 10 0.1 0.67 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bb8 17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5 102288 10: 0.1 0.67 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rac1 Bb8 17.Qf2 Rd3 18.Bxc5 220433 11 0.3 0.65 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rad1 Bd6 17.Rb1 Bb8 18.Qf2 Rd3 19.Bxc5 233800 11: 0.3 0.65 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Re1 Kg7 16.Rad1 Bd6 17.Rb1 Bb8 18.Qf2 Rd3 19.Bxc5 444689 12 0.6 0.63 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rf1 Kg7 16.Rab1 Bc8 17.Rfe1 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Bxc5 448987 12: 0.6 0.63 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rf1 Kg7 16.Rab1 Bc8 17.Rfe1 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Bxc5 790178 13 1.2 0.61 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bc8 17.Qf2 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Nxc5 Rc3 802238 13: 1.2 0.61 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bc8 17.Qf2 h6 18.h3 Rd3 19.Nxc5 Rc3 1228742 14 1.8 0.61 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bb8 17.Qc3 Bc7 18.Qb2 h6 19.Rbc1 Rd3 20.Bxc5 1245463 14: 1.8 0.61 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Rab1 Kg7 16.Re1 Bb8 17.Qc3 Bc7 18.Qb2 h6 19.Rbc1 Rd3 20.Bxc5 2065264 15 3.1 0.70 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8 20.exf5 gxf5 21.Qe1 2169106 15: 3.3 0.70 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8 20.exf5 gxf5 21.Qe1 2753139 16 4.2 0.73 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8 20.Bd2 Qd6 21.Qe2 3013067 16: 4.6 0.73 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Rxd1+ 16.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 17.Qxd1 f5 18.Nd3 Bb6 19.a4 Bc8 20.Bd2 Qd6 21.Qe2 5659199 17 8.7 0.73 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.a4 Kg7 17.Re1 Bc8 18.Bxd4 exd4 19.e5 Qe7 20.Nd3 Bf5 21.Qd2 Bxd3 22.Qxd3 Bxe5 6064383 17: 9.3 0.73 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.a4 Kg7 17.Re1 Bc8 18.Bxd4 exd4 19.e5 Qe7 20.Nd3 Bf5 21.Qd2 Bxd3 22.Qxd3 Bxe5 9502347 18 14.9 0.74 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Nd3 Kg7 18.a4 Qe7 19.Qd2 c5 20.Rf1 Bb7 21.g3 h6 22.h4 10110070 18: 15.8 0.74 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Qd6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Nd3 Kg7 18.a4 Qe7 19.Qd2 c5 20.Rf1 Bb7 21.g3 h6 22.h4 18088303 19 28.4 0.80 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Bc8 16.Nd3 f5 17.Bxd4 cxd4 18.Re1 c5 19.a4 Bb7 20.Qe2 f4 21.Qc2 h6 22.Rf1 Kg7 19653919 19: 30.8 0.80 Rd4 14.Na4 Rbd8 15.Nb2 Bc8 16.Nd3 f5 17.Bxd4 cxd4 18.Re1 c5 19.a4 Bb7 20.Qe2 f4 21.Qc2 h6 22.Rf1 Kg7 32143386 20 50.6 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1 Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5 24.Ra4 Bc3 33966587 20: 53.4 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1 Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5 24.Ra4 Bc3 48746654 21 77.3 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1 Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5 24.Ra4 Bc3 51718213 21: 81.9 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1 Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5 24.Ra4 Bc3 62560460 22 99.1 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1 Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5 24.Ra4 Bc3 69316565 22: 109.4 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1 Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5 24.Ra4 Bc3 99742544 23 158.5 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1 Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5 24.Ra4 Bc3 117944065 23: 186.0 0.79 Rd4 14.Na4 Kg7 15.Nb2 Bb6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Nd3 c5 18.a3 Rc8 19.Rab1 h6 20.Rf1 Ra8 21.b4 axb4 22.axb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Ba5 24.Ra4 Bc3
I might have thought that most engines will not see easily the positional sac, as there is nothing immediate, but Gaviota baffles me. How on Earth did you manage to do so with Gaviota?

 Posts: 6033
 Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am
Re: Botvinnik mastery
I am absolutely sure Rd4 is winning. I think that objectively in the diagrammed position black is some 30cps in advantage. And I did not see any obvious mistake that Lyublinski made.lucasart wrote:Lyudmil,
How can you be so sure that Rd4 is winning. Gaviota may agree with Rd4, but still shows a score of 0.79 for Black, so it is far from winning.
Besides, even if Rd4 is played, Bxd4 is fine according to DiscoCheck:(+133cp for white)Code: Select all
info score cp 133 depth 24 nodes 169971889 time 96416 pv e3d4 c5d4 c3a4 c6c5 a4b2 a6b7 d1e1 b7c6 a1d1 c7d8 c2e2 e7d6 g2g3 a5a4 b2a4 c6a4 b3a4 b8b4 d1b1 b4a4 e1d1 a4a3 d1d3 a3a4
Stockfish agrees with Na4 from Gaviota, but completely disagrees that Rd4 is winning:White is still significantly better.Code: Select all
info depth 32 seldepth 39 score cp 127 nodes 408935605 nps 8421937 time 48556 multipv 1 pv c3a4 a6c8 a1c1 h7h5 a4b2 c8e6 e3d4 c5d4 c4c5 g8g7 c2e2 b8b5 b2d3 b5b8 e2f2 f7f6 c1b1 b8a8 f2c2 a8b8 d1f1 h5h4 f1d1 h4h3 g2g3 b8a8 g1f2 f6f5 e4f5 e6f5 g3g4 f5e6 b1c1 e5e4
Objectively speaking, it doesn't look like Rd4 is the winning move, but rather that white blundered in the game, and didn't play the correct Na4 or Bxe4 after Rd4.
It is all forceful, black plays f7f5 (white can not capture, because black builds a tremendous center), then f4, and other pawns will follow in the attack. I think the rpoblem with engines is that they do not consider appropriately backward pawns. b3 is a backward pawn (to remain there for ever, enormous penalty, close to a full pawn), it can not advance further, as black's pawn and piece control of the b4 square is significantly better than white's. So, in actual fact, black is already a pawn up  the 2 black a5 and c5 pawns fully neutralise the 3 white a,b,c pawns. When you consider the pawn space advantage black will soon enjoy, the assessment of the position might be unequivocal.
Lucas, please, do not get angry with me. Instead, do everything possible, tune and finetune, add knowledge, reduce and extend, but in order to have a fine positional playing engine, make so that Disco picks up Rd4 very fast as its only option
Best, Lyudmil
Re: Botvinnik mastery
Yes, that makes much more sense.michiguel wrote: Rd4 is not winning, but it is a classic positional move. White messed up later under the pressure. Botvinnik was my favorite player when I was a young player.
Miguel
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.
Re: Botvinnik mastery
Symbolic locks on to 25... Rd4 after three seconds:
After 195 seconds:
Code: Select all
[1.556/8/3.097/1,827,831/0] 25... Rd4 26 Qf2 Bd6 27 Re1 Bxc4 28 bxc4 Rxc4
Code: Select all
[1.548/14/3:15.451/138,842,649/0] 25... Rd4 26 Na4 Rbd8 27 Rf1 Bc8 28 Bxd4 exd4 29 f4 Bg4 30 Qd3 Re8 31 e5 Qf8
Re: Botvinnik mastery
Houdini 3 x64 STD
FEN: 1r1r2k1/2b1qp1p/b1p3p1/p1p1p3/2P1P3/1PN1BP2/P1Q3PP/R2R2K1 b   0 25
Houdini 3 x64:
8/16 00:00 15,777 1,753,000 +0.54 Kg8g7 Nc3a4 Rd8d4 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qc2d2 Rb8d8 Ra1c1 d4d3 c4c5
9/16 00:00 25,399 1,693,000 +0.53 Kg8g7 Nc3a4 Rd8d4 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qc2d2 Rb8d8 Ra1c1 h7h6 Rc1b1
10/20 00:00 49,687 1,911,000 +0.59 Kg8g7 Nc3a4 Rd8d4 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qc2d2 Rb8d8 Ra1c1 h7h6 Rc1b1 Ba6b7 c4c5
10/20 00:00 87,603 1,904,000 +0.56 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6b7 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2g3 Kg8g7 Rd1d3 Rb8e8 Ra1d1 Qe7e5 f3f4
11/20 00:00 113,985 1,753,000 +0.56 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6b7 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2g3 Kg8g7 Rd1d3 Rb8e8 Ra1d1 Qe7e5 f3f4
12/23 00:00 217,836 2,178,000 +0.55 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2g3 Ba6c8 Qc2d3 Kg8g7 Rd1d2 Rd8e8 Ra1d1 Qe7e5 f3f4
13/23 00:00 333,461 2,434,000 +0.55 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2g3 Ba6c8 Qc2d3 Kg8g7 Rd1d2 Rd8e8 Ra1d1 Qe7e5 f3f4
14/27+ 00:00 787,284 2,801,000 +0.63 Rd8d4 Nc3a4
14/27 00:00 1,120,000 2,931,000 +0.53 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2g3 Ba6c8 Qc2d3 Kg8g7 Ra1c1 Rd8e8 Rc1c2 Bc8h3 Rc2d2 Qe7e5 f3f4
15/29+ 00:00 1,205,747 2,926,000 +0.61 Rd8d4 Nc3a4
15/29 00:00 1,837,034 3,036,000 +0.60 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Na4b2 Rd4d6 Rd1xd6 Bc7xd6 Ra1d1 Kg8g7 Nb2a4 Ba6b7 Qc2f2 Qe7c7 Rd1d2 Bd6e7 Be3xc5 Rd8xd2 Qf2xd2 Qc7d8 Qd2xd8 Be7xd8
16/32 00:01 2,854,972 3,093,000 +0.63 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6c8 Ra1c1 Kg8g7 Qc2f2 Bc7d6 Rd1d2 f7f5 Rc1d1 f5xe4 f3xe4 Bc8g4 Rd1f1 Rb8f8 Qf2xf8+ Qe7xf8 Be3xd4 Bg4f5 e4xf5 c5xd4 f5xg6
17/37 00:01 4,493,023 3,135,000 +0.64 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6c8 Qc2e2 Bc8e6 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qe2d2 Kg8g7 Rd1e1 Rb8d8 f3f4 Rd8e8 Na4b2 Be6g4 h2h3 Bg4c8 e4e5 Bc8f5 Nb2d3
18/42 00:02 8,036,095 3,157,000 +0.66 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6c8 Qc2e2 Bc8e6 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qe2d2 Kg8g7 Rd1e1 Rb8d8 Ra1d1 Be6c8 e4e5 Bc8f5 h2h3 Bf5c8 f3f4 Bc8f5 Re1f1
19/46+ 00:04 15,277,520 3,206,000 +0.76 Rd8d4 Nc3a4
19/46 00:08 26,626,555 3,260,000 +0.81 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6c8 Na4b2 Kg8g7 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Nb2d3 Bc8e6 Ra1b1 Rb8a8 Rb1c1 Ra8d8 Qc2d2 Rd8a8 Qd2c2 Ra8d8
20/46 00:14 46,324,353 3,204,000 +0.79 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Na4b2 Kg8g7 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Nb2d3 Bc7d6 Qc2d2 Qe7c7 Qd2g5 f7f6 Qg5d2 Rd8e8 Ra1b1 Bd6a3 Rd1f1 Ba6c8 Rb1d1 Re8d8 Rf1f2 Bc8e6 c4c5
21/54 00:21 67,610,306 3,206,000 +0.83 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Na4b2 Kg8g7 Nb2d3 Bc7d6 Qc2f2 Ba6c8 Ra1c1 Bd6c7 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qf2d2 Bc8e6 c4c5 Rd8a8 Qd2c2 Be6c8 Qc2f2 Bc8a6 Rc1c2 Ra8d8 Qf2d2 f7f6 h2h3 Rd8a8 Rc2c1
22/54 00:38 125,524,481 3,234,000 +0.78 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Kg8g7 Na4b2 Bc7d6 Nb2d3 f7f6 Qc2d2 Qe7c7 Ra1b1 Rb8d8 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Rd1f1 Bd6a3 Rb1d1 Ba6c8 Rf1f2 Rd8e8 Rf2f1 Re8d8 Rf1f2
22/54 00:44 142,944,249 3,248,000 +0.78 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Kg8g7 Na4b2 Bc7d6 Nb2d3 f7f6 Qc2d2 Qe7c7 Ra1b1 Rb8d8 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Rd1f1 Rd8e8 Rb1d1 Ba6c8 Qd2f2 Bd6a3 Qf2d2 Re8d8 Rf1f2 Rd8e8 Rd1f1 h7h6 Rf1d1 Bc8e6 c4c5
43 seconds of analysis. Find's Rd4 right away.
Regards
FEN: 1r1r2k1/2b1qp1p/b1p3p1/p1p1p3/2P1P3/1PN1BP2/P1Q3PP/R2R2K1 b   0 25
Houdini 3 x64:
8/16 00:00 15,777 1,753,000 +0.54 Kg8g7 Nc3a4 Rd8d4 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qc2d2 Rb8d8 Ra1c1 d4d3 c4c5
9/16 00:00 25,399 1,693,000 +0.53 Kg8g7 Nc3a4 Rd8d4 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qc2d2 Rb8d8 Ra1c1 h7h6 Rc1b1
10/20 00:00 49,687 1,911,000 +0.59 Kg8g7 Nc3a4 Rd8d4 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qc2d2 Rb8d8 Ra1c1 h7h6 Rc1b1 Ba6b7 c4c5
10/20 00:00 87,603 1,904,000 +0.56 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6b7 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2g3 Kg8g7 Rd1d3 Rb8e8 Ra1d1 Qe7e5 f3f4
11/20 00:00 113,985 1,753,000 +0.56 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6b7 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2g3 Kg8g7 Rd1d3 Rb8e8 Ra1d1 Qe7e5 f3f4
12/23 00:00 217,836 2,178,000 +0.55 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2g3 Ba6c8 Qc2d3 Kg8g7 Rd1d2 Rd8e8 Ra1d1 Qe7e5 f3f4
13/23 00:00 333,461 2,434,000 +0.55 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2g3 Ba6c8 Qc2d3 Kg8g7 Rd1d2 Rd8e8 Ra1d1 Qe7e5 f3f4
14/27+ 00:00 787,284 2,801,000 +0.63 Rd8d4 Nc3a4
14/27 00:00 1,120,000 2,931,000 +0.53 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 g2g3 Ba6c8 Qc2d3 Kg8g7 Ra1c1 Rd8e8 Rc1c2 Bc8h3 Rc2d2 Qe7e5 f3f4
15/29+ 00:00 1,205,747 2,926,000 +0.61 Rd8d4 Nc3a4
15/29 00:00 1,837,034 3,036,000 +0.60 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Na4b2 Rd4d6 Rd1xd6 Bc7xd6 Ra1d1 Kg8g7 Nb2a4 Ba6b7 Qc2f2 Qe7c7 Rd1d2 Bd6e7 Be3xc5 Rd8xd2 Qf2xd2 Qc7d8 Qd2xd8 Be7xd8
16/32 00:01 2,854,972 3,093,000 +0.63 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6c8 Ra1c1 Kg8g7 Qc2f2 Bc7d6 Rd1d2 f7f5 Rc1d1 f5xe4 f3xe4 Bc8g4 Rd1f1 Rb8f8 Qf2xf8+ Qe7xf8 Be3xd4 Bg4f5 e4xf5 c5xd4 f5xg6
17/37 00:01 4,493,023 3,135,000 +0.64 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6c8 Qc2e2 Bc8e6 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qe2d2 Kg8g7 Rd1e1 Rb8d8 f3f4 Rd8e8 Na4b2 Be6g4 h2h3 Bg4c8 e4e5 Bc8f5 Nb2d3
18/42 00:02 8,036,095 3,157,000 +0.66 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6c8 Qc2e2 Bc8e6 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qe2d2 Kg8g7 Rd1e1 Rb8d8 Ra1d1 Be6c8 e4e5 Bc8f5 h2h3 Bf5c8 f3f4 Bc8f5 Re1f1
19/46+ 00:04 15,277,520 3,206,000 +0.76 Rd8d4 Nc3a4
19/46 00:08 26,626,555 3,260,000 +0.81 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Ba6c8 Na4b2 Kg8g7 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Nb2d3 Bc8e6 Ra1b1 Rb8a8 Rb1c1 Ra8d8 Qc2d2 Rd8a8 Qd2c2 Ra8d8
20/46 00:14 46,324,353 3,204,000 +0.79 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Na4b2 Kg8g7 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Nb2d3 Bc7d6 Qc2d2 Qe7c7 Qd2g5 f7f6 Qg5d2 Rd8e8 Ra1b1 Bd6a3 Rd1f1 Ba6c8 Rb1d1 Re8d8 Rf1f2 Bc8e6 c4c5
21/54 00:21 67,610,306 3,206,000 +0.83 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Rb8d8 Na4b2 Kg8g7 Nb2d3 Bc7d6 Qc2f2 Ba6c8 Ra1c1 Bd6c7 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Qf2d2 Bc8e6 c4c5 Rd8a8 Qd2c2 Be6c8 Qc2f2 Bc8a6 Rc1c2 Ra8d8 Qf2d2 f7f6 h2h3 Rd8a8 Rc2c1
22/54 00:38 125,524,481 3,234,000 +0.78 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Kg8g7 Na4b2 Bc7d6 Nb2d3 f7f6 Qc2d2 Qe7c7 Ra1b1 Rb8d8 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Rd1f1 Bd6a3 Rb1d1 Ba6c8 Rf1f2 Rd8e8 Rf2f1 Re8d8 Rf1f2
22/54 00:44 142,944,249 3,248,000 +0.78 Rd8d4 Nc3a4 Kg8g7 Na4b2 Bc7d6 Nb2d3 f7f6 Qc2d2 Qe7c7 Ra1b1 Rb8d8 Be3xd4 c5xd4 Rd1f1 Rd8e8 Rb1d1 Ba6c8 Qd2f2 Bd6a3 Qf2d2 Re8d8 Rf1f2 Rd8e8 Rd1f1 h7h6 Rf1d1 Bc8e6 c4c5
43 seconds of analysis. Find's Rd4 right away.
Regards
There is always a light at end of the tunnel. Just make sure it isn't a train!

 Posts: 6033
 Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am
Re: Botvinnik mastery
Now, that I am looking at it more closely, it might seem that white could have achieved a draw.
[D]1r4k1/2bbq2p/8/p1p1p1p1/2PpPp2/1P3P2/P1Q2BPP/3R1RK1 w   0 33
This is a position from the game, where white should be losing.
[D]1r4k1/2bbq2p/8/p1p1p1p1/2PpPp2/1P1K1P2/P1Q2BPP/3R1R2 w   0 33
And this is a tentative position, with the white king transferred to d3 instead of g1. I think this is already most probably a draw. And it should have been possible to arrange things in such a way that the king finds shelter on d3. With a fully closed center, the king has nothing to fear on d3, besides, it blocks the passer. On g1 its position is dangerous. So that maybe white had a draw after all, but Rd4 is still spectacular.
[D]1r4k1/2bbq2p/8/p1p1p1p1/2PpPp2/1P3P2/P1Q2BPP/3R1RK1 w   0 33
This is a position from the game, where white should be losing.
[D]1r4k1/2bbq2p/8/p1p1p1p1/2PpPp2/1P1K1P2/P1Q2BPP/3R1R2 w   0 33
And this is a tentative position, with the white king transferred to d3 instead of g1. I think this is already most probably a draw. And it should have been possible to arrange things in such a way that the king finds shelter on d3. With a fully closed center, the king has nothing to fear on d3, besides, it blocks the passer. On g1 its position is dangerous. So that maybe white had a draw after all, but Rd4 is still spectacular.