Why is this game not a draw?

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Carlos777
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Why is this game not a draw?

Post by Carlos777 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:55 pm

[Event "Mystery"]
[Site "CARLOS-PC"]
[Date "2012.10.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Mystery 2.1"]
[Black "Xadreco 5.7.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "1100"]
[ECO "B33"]
[Opening "Sicilian"]
[Time "13:20:25"]
[Variation "Pelikan, Chelyabinsk, 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nd5"]
[WhiteElo "1100"]
[TimeControl "80/300:80/300:80/300"]
[Termination "time forfeit"]
[PlyCount "31"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6
8. Na3 b5 9. Qf3 {+0.73/5 3} b4 {+1.48/4 2} 10. Bxf6 {-1.19/6 3} gxf6
{+2.58/4 3} 11. Nd5 {-0.83/8 3} bxa3 {+2.27/4 3} 12. Nxf6+ {-0.83/8 3} Ke7
{+1.27/5 3} 13. Nd5+ {-1.23/7 3} Ke8 {+2.27/5 3} 14. Nf6+ {-0.83/6 3} Ke7
{+0.16/5 3} 15. Nd5+ {-1.23/7 3} Ke8 {+2.27/5 3} 16. Nf6+ {-0.83/6 3} {Black forfeits on time} 1-0

This game was played on Arena 3.0. I was looking the reason of why Xadreco lost on time (it usually manage well its time). So I checked the game and saw that the same position was reached 3 times on the moves 12, 14 and 16 with the same side to move. I wondered if Arena's draw detection was wrong (I always use this option) and tried the game with PGNver tool by George Lyapko. This is the report:

File: tablas.pgn
Level of warnings: 0
=============================================================================
Game 1: Mystery 2.1-Xadreco 5.7.0

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6
8. Na3 b5 9. Qf3 b4 10. Bxf6 gxf6 11. Nd5 bxa3 12. Nxf6+ Ke7 13. Nd5+ Ke8
14. Nf6+ Ke7 15. Nd5+ Ke8 16. Nf6+

Result :1-0 {Black forfeits on time}
Warning level :1
Final position: r1bqkb1r/5p1p/p1np1N2/4p3/4P3/p4Q2/PPP2PPP/R3KB1R b KQ - 8 16
Analyze result:1-0 {win on time(QRRBN7:qrrbbn6)}
=============================================================================
1 warnings/errors found

So PGNver agrees with Arena. Why is it not a draw? Could somebody explain to me?

Carlos

bob
Posts: 20555
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Why is this game not a draw?

Post by bob » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:15 pm

Carlos777 wrote:[Event "Mystery"]
[Site "CARLOS-PC"]
[Date "2012.10.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Mystery 2.1"]
[Black "Xadreco 5.7.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "1100"]
[ECO "B33"]
[Opening "Sicilian"]
[Time "13:20:25"]
[Variation "Pelikan, Chelyabinsk, 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nd5"]
[WhiteElo "1100"]
[TimeControl "80/300:80/300:80/300"]
[Termination "time forfeit"]
[PlyCount "31"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6
8. Na3 b5 9. Qf3 {+0.73/5 3} b4 {+1.48/4 2} 10. Bxf6 {-1.19/6 3} gxf6
{+2.58/4 3} 11. Nd5 {-0.83/8 3} bxa3 {+2.27/4 3} 12. Nxf6+ {-0.83/8 3} Ke7
{+1.27/5 3} 13. Nd5+ {-1.23/7 3} Ke8 {+2.27/5 3} 14. Nf6+ {-0.83/6 3} Ke7
{+0.16/5 3} 15. Nd5+ {-1.23/7 3} Ke8 {+2.27/5 3} 16. Nf6+ {-0.83/6 3} {Black forfeits on time} 1-0

This game was played on Arena 3.0. I was looking the reason of why Xadreco lost on time (it usually manage well its time). So I checked the game and saw that the same position was reached 3 times on the moves 12, 14 and 16 with the same side to move. I wondered if Arena's draw detection was wrong (I always use this option) and tried the game with PGNver tool by George Lyapko. This is the report:

File: tablas.pgn
Level of warnings: 0
=============================================================================
Game 1: Mystery 2.1-Xadreco 5.7.0

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6
8. Na3 b5 9. Qf3 b4 10. Bxf6 gxf6 11. Nd5 bxa3 12. Nxf6+ Ke7 13. Nd5+ Ke8
14. Nf6+ Ke7 15. Nd5+ Ke8 16. Nf6+

Result :1-0 {Black forfeits on time}
Warning level :1
Final position: r1bqkb1r/5p1p/p1np1N2/4p3/4P3/p4Q2/PPP2PPP/R3KB1R b KQ - 8 16
Analyze result:1-0 {win on time(QRRBN7:qrrbbn6)}
=============================================================================
1 warnings/errors found

So PGNver agrees with Arena. Why is it not a draw? Could somebody explain to me?

Carlos
A quick look shows:

12. Nxf6+ Ke7 13. Nd5+ Ke8
14. Nf6+ Ke7 15. Nd5+ Ke8 16. Nf6+

For black to move, at move 12, his king starts on e7. at move 14, black's king is again on e7 - second rep. Black didn't play a move on move 16. If he plays Ke7 he can claim a draw. So he can certainly claim a draw, but after he makes move 16... Ke7.

What about before he makes a move.

At move 12, black's king is on e8, where it also is on moves 14 and before he makes move 16. The position with white knight on f6, black king on e8 occurs 3 times. Black can claim a draw without playing a move at all, or he can claim a draw after playing Ke7 again.

Question is, does arena detect draws BEFORE the side on move actually makes a move, or does the player have to claim the draw, either before he makes a move or after he makes a move???

Carlos777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:09 pm

Re: Why is this game not a draw?

Post by Carlos777 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:57 pm

Hi Robert,

Thanks for replying.
bob wrote: A quick look shows:

12. Nxf6+ Ke7 13. Nd5+ Ke8
14. Nf6+ Ke7 15. Nd5+ Ke8 16. Nf6+

For black to move, at move 12, his king starts on e7. at move 14, black's king is again on e7 - second rep. Black didn't play a move on move 16. If he plays Ke7 he can claim a draw. So he can certainly claim a draw, but after he makes move 16... Ke7.
Technically, white has reached the same position 3 times. So, if Arena acts like a referee it should have awarded the draw or am I wrong? Maybe, this have to do with the chance to claim the draw on the right turn. What would have happened if white claimed draw? It would be legal to award a draw in that case?
What about before he makes a move.

At move 12, black's king is on e8, where it also is on moves 14 and before he makes move 16. The position with white knight on f6, black king on e8 occurs 3 times.


Before white's 12th move there was a pawn on f6, so it is not the same.
Black can claim a draw without playing a move at all, or he can claim a draw after playing Ke7 again.
This is the key question.
Question is, does arena detect draws BEFORE the side on move actually makes a move, or does the player have to claim the draw, either before he makes a move or after he makes a move???
It seems, Arena needs that both sides have the same position 3 times to award the 3-rep draw.

Regards,
Carlos

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hgm
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Re: Why is this game not a draw?

Post by hgm » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:13 pm

It is not a 3-fold rep yet. The position after 12.Nxf6+ is NOT the same as those after 14.Nf6+ and 16.Nf6+:

r1bqkb1r/5p1p/p1np1N2/4p3/4P3/p4Q2/PPP2PPP/R3KB1R b KQkq - 0 12

versus

r1bqkb1r/5p1p/p1np1N2/4p3/4P3/p4Q2/PPP2PPP/R3KB1R b KQ - 8 16

Spot the difference! :wink: So Arena is right, and Xadreco's rep-detection is buggy.

Tennison
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:02 pm

Re: Why is this game not a draw?

Post by Tennison » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:28 pm

I hope my english will be good enough to be understood. :?

To have a 3 times rep draw you need ALL of these :

- before playing his move, the player who will "create" the 3 times rep draw must write his intended move and ask for the rep draw (or if the position arise the 3rd time with an opponent move he can ask directly);
- the position after this intended move must be the same as 2 previous positions in the game;
- but (the most important) : all these 3 positions must be with exactly the same possible moves in these positions;
- and (also the most important :lol: ) : the same side to play !

example 1 :

Same 3 positions but in cases 1 and 2 it's black to move, case 3 white to move : False.

example 2 :

Same positions and same side to move but cases 1 and 2 white have the right to castle and not in case 3 : False.

example 3 :

Same positions and same side to move but case 1 white have "en-passant" possibility and not in case 2 and 3 : False.

Tennison
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:02 pm

Re: Why is this game not a draw?

Post by Tennison » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:39 pm

In this position,

- 3 times rep position : OK.

- same side to move : OK.

- same possible moves : not OK.

The first time the Kf6+ is moved black has again the right (but not the opportunity) to castle.

And it's why it's not a draw before intended to move Ke7.

I know : it's a bit strange as the king can't castle in first position but he has the right to do it.

Carlos777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:09 pm

Re: Why is this game not a draw?

Post by Carlos777 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:10 pm

HGM wrote: It is not a 3-fold rep yet. The position after 12.Nxf6+ is NOT the same as those after 14.Nf6+ and 16.Nf6+:

r1bqkb1r/5p1p/p1np1N2/4p3/4P3/p4Q2/PPP2PPP/R3KB1R b KQkq - 0 12
Tennison wrote:In this position,

- 3 times rep position : OK.

- same side to move : OK.

- same possible moves : not OK.

The first time the Kf6+ is moved black has again the right (but not the opportunity) to castle.

And it's why it's not a draw before intended to move Ke7.

I know : it's a bit strange as the king can't castle in first position but he has the right to do it.
Thanks guys. It was a subtle difference (the castle rights) that I overlooked. Xadreco needed to move 16. ... Ke7 and then claim the draw.

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hgm
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Re: Why is this game not a draw?

Post by hgm » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:24 pm

On this particular case the castling rights could in theory make a difference, because black could play 12... Qxf6, and castle later. But a really funny case is when the Queen had not been there. Then black has the right to castle, but as the only way to evade the check is moving the King, this is a sort of 'phantom right', as in no possiblecontinuation he can actually castle.

The way I understand FIDE rules this still does not make it the same position. Castling rights that are unavoidably lost, are still castling rights.

But I doubt if that is the same with e.p. rights, which, unlike castling rights, are instantaneous rights. Suppose we have the position:

[d]3r4/8/8/8/3p3K/8/R3P2k/8 w

1.e4+ Kg1 2.Ra1+ Kh2 3.Ra2+ Kg1 4.Ra1+ Kh2 5.Ra2+

Is this now already a 3-fold rep? That depends on whether you consider e.p. capture to be possible after 1.e4+. And it is not possible, as it is not a legal move, because it would leave you in check.

I wonder which GUIs would grant a rep-draw here. (WinBoard would...)

Tennison
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Re: Why is this game not a draw?

Post by Tennison » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:38 pm

Black pawn d4 having the right to "en passant" but not the opportunity,

this position is not a 3 times rep draw.

;-)

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hgm
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Re: Why is this game not a draw?

Post by hgm » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:56 pm

I think it is, because it will also never have the opportunity afterwards. For e.p. the right is the opportunity. That makes the 'e.p. right' completely illusory. In fact you have no right to make an e.p. capture here, just like you would not have that right to make it if there was no Pawn on d4, or if the Pawn on d4 was pinned. It doesn't matter what the reason is that makes e.p. capture an illegal move.

For castling rights, however, there exists a right that is distinct from the opportunity, meaning that there exist positions where you cannot castle now, but might be able to do it later. (Like in the opening position.)

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