My anticommercial thinking (POLL)

[tomgdrums]

I think the learning system,the 50 moves rule are 2 cases that some Engine staff uses to show to ppl" Hey Look at this!!I have a learning system now,a 50 moves rule,so that's why my engine goes commercial now.Make the update"Really if you think about the contribution to the evolution of chess engines by some people has been stuck in purpose.The profit is the magic word nowadays.

Remember back in time we had Robbolito,fruit,fire,ivanhoe.What about fire?Fire had the fastest speed operation system those days.And these engines were free.Those people were working just to offer a nice simple engine with super-human abilities just for free.

And then some people started making engines that were strong but not very strong.Suddenly the power of their chess engines went high in a very short time.Have you ever wonder why?And then they used this popularity for profit.But think about what they offer.

They offer a chess software who the abilities depends on your pc performance.You pay for a chess engine that works on a dual processor on a quad processor.You pay for the update in version of the same engine.Because the difference of the free engine to the commercial is zero without the pc performance.Look at those tests.A free version of the same chess engine in some tests win the commercial one.A commercial engine is not unbeatable.So why you pay?

I would like to pay if i had a chess engine that has a 4000 Elo Performance and the main engine opponents had 3500.But now we are talking about 50 or 100 Elo difference?

Look at the 1 core of Strelka.It beats the commercial engines.It doesnt win the war,but is a little less than equal.Look the test on 64-bits.Now wonder about the next Strelka MP and think this.Strelka with the 1 core does everything.It doesnt use the power of cores to show you the best performance.It does so with the 1 core already.But people want the MP solution.So Strelka team works for the MP engine.Thats why i think Strelka walks on the right path

Because chess engines must be free for everyone.Chess engine is not a cluster,is not a deep blue monster system.Is just a software and a software that has a different performance in totally on I7 than on a dual core

The major computer chess tournaments have been doing it a while. For me, it has nothing to do with the strongest engine any longer. It is who brings the best and most expensive hardware. And then people buy Junior 13 because it won the WCCC, and the last Ivanhoe I saw run against his commercial version ripped him apart 56-8. Me- I would be ashamed to ask more than 30 bucks for the "Deep Version" if it were mine, and 30 is 10 more than I think it is worth.

The hardware gets bigger and faster, the programs generally don't have to be that good any longer- they say wait till you see it on 8 cores. And sadly, the prices just keep going up. (When my dad was alive, he told me it would be easy to make the auto companies drop their prices- everyone, and I quote, "just quit buying the son of a bitches. That's all it takes.")

Engines like Houdini and Komodo have fair prices- their programs are worth what they charge. But who ever heard of paying 130 bucks for a "deep" version that the weakest Ivanhoe in the last 3 years could decapitate without even breathing hard.


george

Hey George!

I agree that Komodo and Houdini charge a fair price. I also think Shredder does as well (from the Shredder website) since you get (IMO) the best GUI, a great opening book, online access from the GUI to all 6 man tablebases and a great engine (not the strongest but still great). Plus you get an engine that is pretty well tuned to play SOMEWHAT realistically at weaker levels. (good for training)

I am excited to see what the new Hiarcs GUI is going to be like.

BUt I also agree that Junior is WAY overpriced. I mean WAY overpriced!

The one thing about commercial engine developers is that they sort of have to add the things users want or they lose business. Notice that when Houdini went commercial quickly added strength adjustment, Nalimov access, and a learning feature!! Thus making Houdini a better overall engine for analysis, training and learning. (arguably the best for those purpose right now but that is another debate!)

The Strelka author (and this NOT a slam against Strelka) does not have to do anything if he doesn't want to. He can release the engine as is. Which is cool that it is a strong engine but it doesn't provide me with anything other than some (maybe) extra strength.

For instance everyone loves the Stockfish GUI in Ipad because the engine is really strong and the GUI is good. BUT for my purposes it doesn't do enough! BUT I can't really "complain" or urge for more since it was free. (and it IS really nice)

The ChessTiger App in the Ipad store is AWESOME. And since I paid for it I can comfortable suggest improvements if I see them.

There is nothing wrong with free or commercial. They both have their purposes. And they can both help each other be better.

The commercial authors DO have realize they can't go berzerk on their pricein (JUNIOR!!) and they must offer a little something something extra as well. Shredder is AWESOME at this and it seems Hiarcs is going to follow that model as well.

Just my two cents!

[Kingghidorah]

The major computer chess tournaments have been doing it a while. For me, it has nothing to do with the strongest engine any longer. It is who brings the best and most expensive hardware. And then people buy Junior 13 because it won the WCCC, and the last Ivanhoe I saw run against his commercial version ripped him apart 56-8. Me- I would be ashamed to ask more than 30 bucks for the "Deep Version" if it were mine, and 30 is 10 more than I think it is worth.

The hardware gets bigger and faster, the programs generally don't have to be that good any longer- they say wait till you see it on 8 cores. And sadly, the prices just keep going up. (When my dad was alive, he told me it would be easy to make the auto companies drop their prices- everyone, and I quote, "just quit buying the son of a bitches. That's all it takes.")

Engines like Houdini and Komodo have fair prices- their programs are worth what they charge. But who ever heard of paying 130 bucks for a "deep" version that the weakest Ivanhoe in the last 3 years could decapitate without even breathing hard.


george

[/quote]

well put.

[Strelkaman]

3.I respect your thesis about Capitalism,but i like more the exchange form of economy.I work and you pay me with what i need.

This is way off-topic, but there are multiple issues with a barter economy:

* The need for a double coincidence of wants: For barter to occur between two people, both need to have what the other wants.
* The absence of a common measure of value: In a monetary economy, money plays the role of a measure of value of all goods, so their values can be measured against each other. This role is usually absent in a barter economy.
* The indivisibility of certain goods: If a person wants to buy a certain amount of another's goods, but can only pay with one indivisible unit of another good which is worth more than what the person wants to obtain, a barter transaction cannot occur.
* The lack of standards for deferred payments: This is related to the absence of a common measure of value. It's only feasible if the debt is denominated in units of the good that will eventually be used in payment.
* The difficulty in storing wealth: If a society relies primarily on perishable goods, storing wealth for the future may be impractical. You have to use durable goods such as pigs or cattle for this purpose.

This is a general idea about exchange economy.I was talking about an exchange form of economy in a level of cooperation between engines.Like what if komodo+critter unify their forces to produce a stable and overpowered engine.Instead this Komodo wants to commercialize an MP version that in a few months would be probably outdated.So whats the point?

@Tom Giampietro Very good and objectival post Tom.I also think that Shredder and other engines have a lot to offer in the future.As Zappa.Strelka is a newborn baby yet.It doesnt have a MP version also.Let wait and see in the near future.
But let me put 2 issues here.Analysis and play.These are 2 important factors that we have overestimated.You pay for an engine just to play or to analyze a game.These are 2 are very different.I have not conveinced that besides Fritz there is an engine that analyzes with maximum power.Maby its the interface.But analysis and play behaviour is something that a true and strong engine must have set apart and not to be confused

@George Speight Same question to you George.You like better the Shredder because it analyzes well,because of the fritz interface,because has a stability in long time controls?

[geots]

I think the learning system,the 50 moves rule are 2 cases that some Engine staff uses to show to ppl" Hey Look at this!!I have a learning system now,a 50 moves rule,so that's why my engine goes commercial now.Make the update"Really if you think about the contribution to the evolution of chess engines by some people has been stuck in purpose.The profit is the magic word nowadays.

Remember back in time we had Robbolito,fruit,fire,ivanhoe.What about fire?Fire had the fastest speed operation system those days.And these engines were free.Those people were working just to offer a nice simple engine with super-human abilities just for free.

And then some people started making engines that were strong but not very strong.Suddenly the power of their chess engines went high in a very short time.Have you ever wonder why?And then they used this popularity for profit.But think about what they offer.

They offer a chess software who the abilities depends on your pc performance.You pay for a chess engine that works on a dual processor on a quad processor.You pay for the update in version of the same engine.Because the difference of the free engine to the commercial is zero without the pc performance.Look at those tests.A free version of the same chess engine in some tests win the commercial one.A commercial engine is not unbeatable.So why you pay?

I would like to pay if i had a chess engine that has a 4000 Elo Performance and the main engine opponents had 3500.But now we are talking about 50 or 100 Elo difference?

Look at the 1 core of Strelka.It beats the commercial engines.It doesnt win the war,but is a little less than equal.Look the test on 64-bits.Now wonder about the next Strelka MP and think this.Strelka with the 1 core does everything.It doesnt use the power of cores to show you the best performance.It does so with the 1 core already.But people want the MP solution.So Strelka team works for the MP engine.Thats why i think Strelka walks on the right path

Because chess engines must be free for everyone.Chess engine is not a cluster,is not a deep blue monster system.Is just a software and a software that has a different performance in totally on I7 than on a dual core

The major computer chess tournaments have been doing it a while. For me, it has nothing to do with the strongest engine any longer. It is who brings the best and most expensive hardware. And then people buy Junior 13 because it won the WCCC, and the last Ivanhoe I saw run against his commercial version ripped him apart 56-8. Me- I would be ashamed to ask more than 30 bucks for the "Deep Version" if it were mine, and 30 is 10 more than I think it is worth.

The hardware gets bigger and faster, the programs generally don't have to be that good any longer- they say wait till you see it on 8 cores. And sadly, the prices just keep going up. (When my dad was alive, he told me it would be easy to make the auto companies drop their prices- everyone, and I quote, "just quit buying the son of a bitches. That's all it takes.")

Engines like Houdini and Komodo have fair prices- their programs are worth what they charge. But who ever heard of paying 130 bucks for a "deep" version that the weakest Ivanhoe in the last 3 years could decapitate without even breathing hard.


george

Hey George!

I agree that Komodo and Houdini charge a fair price. I also think Shredder does as well (from the Shredder website) since you get (IMO) the best GUI, a great opening book, online access from the GUI to all 6 man tablebases and a great engine (not the strongest but still great). Plus you get an engine that is pretty well tuned to play SOMEWHAT realistically at weaker levels. (good for training)

I am excited to see what the new Hiarcs GUI is going to be like.

BUt I also agree that Junior is WAY overpriced. I mean WAY overpriced!

The one thing about commercial engine developers is that they sort of have to add the things users want or they lose business. Notice that when Houdini went commercial quickly added strength adjustment, Nalimov access, and a learning feature!! Thus making Houdini a better overall engine for analysis, training and learning. (arguably the best for those purpose right now but that is another debate!)

The Strelka author (and this NOT a slam against Strelka) does not have to do anything if he doesn't want to. He can release the engine as is. Which is cool that it is a strong engine but it doesn't provide me with anything other than some (maybe) extra strength.

For instance everyone loves the Stockfish GUI in Ipad because the engine is really strong and the GUI is good. BUT for my purposes it doesn't do enough! BUT I can't really "complain" or urge for more since it was free. (and it IS really nice)

The ChessTiger App in the Ipad store is AWESOME. And since I paid for it I can comfortable suggest improvements if I see them.

There is nothing wrong with free or commercial. They both have their purposes. And they can both help each other be better.

The commercial authors DO have realize they can't go berzerk on their pricein (JUNIOR!!) and they must offer a little something something extra as well. Shredder is AWESOME at this and it seems Hiarcs is going to follow that model as well.

Just my two cents!

I agree with what you say, and I still use the Shredder 11 gui. That with the engine was the best deal I have seen in a long time. And you got a Pdf manual that actually made sense. I love being able to access the database while the match is running. And if there were any bugs- I haven't seen them.

gts

[RoadWarrior]

This is a general idea about exchange economy.I was talking about an exchange form of economy in a level of cooperation between engines.Like what if komodo+critter unify their forces to produce a stable and overpowered engine.Instead this Komodo wants to commercialize an MP version that in a few months would be probably outdated.So whats the point?

Some people thrive on rivalry, some on cooperation, and some thrive on both. I think that having a mono-culture would be less efficient and less productive.

[zullil]

Like what if komodo+critter unify their forces to produce a stable and overpowered engine.Instead this Komodo wants to commercialize an MP version that in a few months would be probably outdated.So whats the point?

A fair question to ask. I suspect that Don and Larry want to make money, which is fine by me.

I also like a system that leaves individuals free to make their own choices, even choices that some may not understand.

By the way, I believe Richard Vida (the author of Critter) provided the source code for Critter-1.4 to the Komodo and Stockfish teams.

On the Critter webpage you'll find

"Richard Vida doesn't think he could make a living from computer chess. It is only a hobby and Critter will be always free of charge."

[Strelkaman]

This is a general idea about exchange economy.I was talking about an exchange form of economy in a level of cooperation between engines.Like what if komodo+critter unify their forces to produce a stable and overpowered engine.Instead this Komodo wants to commercialize an MP version that in a few months would be probably outdated.So whats the point?

Some people thrive on rivalry, some on cooperation, and some thrive on both. I think that having a mono-culture would be less efficient and less productive.

Is this really a rivalry?All what i see is who will make an engine about 20,30 ELO stronger.I think they all have stuck.No other ideas about how they exploit the abilities of a powerful engine.This leads to have many chess engines.I read everyday about a new engine.Iam tired to read the Supra updates.They fix a bug and they update the whole version:) And they are 100 of people who are testing the unbuged version everyday.Why?

The answer is that they build the fan base for further commercial purpose

[Strelkaman]

Like what if komodo+critter unify their forces to produce a stable and overpowered engine.Instead this Komodo wants to commercialize an MP version that in a few months would be probably outdated.So whats the point?

A fair question to ask. I suspect that Don and Larry want to make money, which is fine by me.

I also like a system that leaves individuals free to make their own choices, even choices that some may not understand.

By the way, I believe Richard Vida (the author of Critter) provided the source code for Critter-1.4 to the Komodo and Stockfish teams.

On the Critter webpage you'll find

"Richard Vida doesn't think he could make a living from computer chess. It is only a hobby and Critter will be always free of charge."

Richard Vida is a nice person indeed.I like the Critter work.His team seems so cooperative.I mean the man tries to help to every question you have.Its the perfect discussion model for what iam saying right now.Cooperation is the key for 2,3 engines to exploit their work.Vida found something useful and wanted to share it?There is no wrong in this.As a matter of fact this is a true love for a work you are passionate with.

[IanO]

But I also agree that Junior is WAY overpriced. I mean WAY overpriced!

The commercial authors DO have realize they can't go berzerk on their priceing (JUNIOR!!) and they must offer a little something something extra as well. Shredder is AWESOME at this and it seems Hiarcs is going to follow that model as well.

Huh? Shredder and Junior are of comparable strength, but Shredder sells for €100 and Junior for €45 (compare to Rybka for €65/95, Houdini for €40 and Hiarcs for €30). Shredder is the engine that is grossly overpriced! I have delayed buying Shredder for years, waiting for them to come to their senses and lower their prices to the new market standard. Or to at least unbundle Deep Shredder from their GUI. Maybe they will finally figure this out when the new Hiarcs UI eats their lunch.

[tomgdrums]

But I also agree that Junior is WAY overpriced. I mean WAY overpriced!

The commercial authors DO have realize they can't go berzerk on their priceing (JUNIOR!!) and they must offer a little something something extra as well. Shredder is AWESOME at this and it seems Hiarcs is going to follow that model as well.

Huh? Shredder and Junior are of comparable strength, but Shredder sells for €100 and Junior for €45 (compare to Rybka for €65/95, Houdini for €40 and Hiarcs for €30). Shredder is the engine that is grossly overpriced! I have delayed buying Shredder for years, waiting for them to come to their senses and lower their prices to the new market standard. Or to at least unbundle Deep Shredder from their GUI. Maybe they will finally figure this out when the new Hiarcs UI eats their lunch.

Well,first your price points aren't quite correct. However with Shredder you do get the GUI (which is my favorite!), a great opening book, the 3-4-5 man Shredderbases, access to all 6 man tables through the GUI and the Shredder website...so the price is reasonable. NOW if you don't like that GUI then I would understand and I agree it would be wise for Shredder to make a UCI only purchase option available.