The unavoidable stalemate

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Mike S.
Posts: 1480
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:33 am

The unavoidable stalemate

Post by Mike S. » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:54 am

[D]knR3b1/1p2pp2/PP1prp2/2p1b3/2P1K3/8/8/7n w - - 0 2
2.Rxb8+!

Sacrifice of the last piece, zugzwang, stalemate... Engines seem to find this either immediatly or never. I'm almost sure it is the old nullmove/zugzwang problem. Nothing new; I'm posting it mainly because I thought it is somewhat unusual, with more material on the board than in other examples. Which may be part of the problem here for engines which would turn off nullmove depending from material, but there's too much yet. But after Rxb8+, all engines I tried saw the rest immediatly.

Code: Select all

[Event "Study (Schach 1976)"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1976.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Roberts Skuja"]
[Black "White to draw"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "User"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "knR3b1/1p2pp2/PP1prp2/2p1b3/2P1K3/8/8/7n w - - 0 2"]
[PlyCount "5"]

2. Rxb8+ $1 {(I have omitted 1.Rc7-c8+ Nc6-b8.)} Kxb8 3. a7+ Ka8 (3... Kc8 4.
a8=Q+ Kd7 5. Qxb7+ Kd8 6. Qc7+ Ke8 7. Qc8#) 4. Kd5 $11 {Each of Black's move
causes stalemate.} 1/2-1/2
Regards, Mike

Arpad Rusz
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:34 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: The unavoidable stalemate

Post by Arpad Rusz » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:41 am

Another unavoidable stalemate (Rusz, Humor Tourney - 2004):
[D]8/8/8/5N2/5pp1/5p2/pKppprpn/1brqnkb1 w - - 0 1

Thematic try: 1. Ka1? Nd3 2.Ne3+! Ke1 3.Nxg2+! Kf1 4.Ne3+ perpetual check or stalemate. But 1...g3! wins!
The solution: 1. Ng3+! fxg3 2. Ka1! reciprocal zugzwang

[D]8/8/8/8/6p1/5pp1/p1ppprpn/Kbrqnkb1 b - - 0 2

2...Nd3 stalemate

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Mike S.
Posts: 1480
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:33 am

Re: The unavoidable stalemate

Post by Mike S. » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:22 pm

:mrgreen: Great! Thank you. I'll put it into my database of interesting positions.
Regards, Mike

F. Bluemers
Posts: 860
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:21 pm
Location: Nederland
Contact:

Re: The unavoidable stalemate

Post by F. Bluemers » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:30 pm

Arpad Rusz wrote:Another unavoidable stalemate (Rusz, Humor Tourney - 2004):
[D]8/8/8/5N2/5pp1/5p2/pKppprpn/1brqnkb1 w - - 0 1

Thematic try: 1. Ka1? Nd3 2.Ne3+! Ke1 3.Nxg2+! Kf1 4.Ne3+ perpetual check or stalemate. But 1...g3! wins!
The solution: 1. Ng3+! fxg3 2. Ka1! reciprocal zugzwang

[D]8/8/8/8/6p1/5pp1/p1ppprpn/Kbrqnkb1 b - - 0 2

2...Nd3 stalemate
Nice,but too easy for Dirty

Code: Select all

 56	0.00	23.9M	0:10.29	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 55	0.00	23.9M	0:10.29	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 55	0.00	19.8M	0:08.56	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 54	0.00	19.8M	0:08.56	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 54	0.00	16.4M	0:07.08	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 53	0.00	16.4M	0:07.08	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 53	0.00	13.5M	0:05.86	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 52	0.00	13.5M	0:05.86	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 52	0.00	11.1M	0:04.83	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 51	0.00	11.1M	0:04.83	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 51	0.00	9.2M	0:04.02	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 50	0.00	9.2M	0:04.02	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 50	0.00	7.6M	0:03.33	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 49	0.00	7.6M	0:03.33	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 49	0.00	6.2M	0:02.74	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 48	0.00	6.2M	0:02.74	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 48	0.00	5.1M	0:02.27	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 47	0.00	5.1M	0:02.27	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 47	0.00	4.2M	0:01.87	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 46	0.00	4.2M	0:01.87	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 46	0.00	3.4M	0:01.54	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 45	0.00	3.4M	0:01.54	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 45	0.00	2.8M	0:01.28	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 44	0.00	2.8M	0:01.28	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 44	0.00	2.3M	0:01.06	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 43	0.00	2.3M	0:01.06	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 43	0.00	1.9M	0:00.87	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 42	0.00	1.9M	0:00.87	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 42	0.00	1.5M	0:00.71	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 41	0.00	1.5M	0:00.71	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 41	0.00	1.2M	0:00.59	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 40	0.00	1.2M	0:00.59	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 40	0.00	993775	0:00.50	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 39	0.00	993263	0:00.50	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 39	0.00	806958	0:00.42	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 38	0.00	806445	0:00.42	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 38	0.00	654420	0:00.35	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 37	0.00	653907	0:00.35	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 37	0.00	530815	0:00.29	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 36	0.00	530303	0:00.29	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 36	0.00	430145	0:00.25	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 35	0.00	429634	0:00.25	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 35	0.00	348487	0:00.21	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 34	0.00	347989	0:00.21	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 34	0.00	282499	0:00.18	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 33	0.00	282002	0:00.18	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 33	0.00	228735	0:00.17	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 32	0.00	228281	0:00.17	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 32	0.00	188435	0:00.14	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 31	0.00	187985	0:00.14	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 31	0.00	158945	0:00.12	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 30	0.00	158534	0:00.12	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 30	0.00	130798	0:00.11	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 29	0.00	130416	0:00.09	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 29	0.00	106796	0:00.09	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 28	0.00	106415	0:00.09	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 28	0.00	86657	0:00.07	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 27	0.00	86329	0:00.07	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 27	0.00	70377	0:00.06	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 26	0.00	70064	0:00.06	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 26	0.00	57086	0:00.06	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 25	0.00	56805	0:00.06	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 25	0.00	46171	0:00.04	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 24	0.00	45910	0:00.04	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 24	0.00	37747	0:00.04	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 23	0.00	37489	0:00.04	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 23	0.00	30888	0:00.03	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 22	0.00	30665	0:00.03	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 22	0.00	25044	0:00.03	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 21	0.00	24841	0:00.03	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 21	0.00	20074	0:00.03	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 20	0.00	19897	0:00.03	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 20	0.00	15905	0:00.03	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 19	0.00	15754	0:00.03	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 19	0.00	12721	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 18	0.00	12571	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 18	0.00	10050	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 17	0.00	9925	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 17	0.00	7978	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 16	0.00	7868	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 16	0.00	6276	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 15	0.00	6187	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 15	0.00	4919	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 14	0.00	4837	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 14	0.00	3801	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 13	0.00	3722	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 13	0.00	2928	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 12	0.00	2858	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 12	0.00	2309	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 11	0.00	2254	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 11	0.00	1831	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 10	0.00	1791	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
 10	0.00	1494	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  9	0.00	1458	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  9	0.00	1144	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  8	0.00	1107	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  8	0.00	904	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  7	0.00	871	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  7	0.00	683	0:00.01	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  6	0.00	661	0:00.00	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  6	0.00	560	0:00.00	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  5	0.00	551	0:00.00	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  5	0.00	521	0:00.00	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  4	0.00	511	0:00.00	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  4	0.00	481	0:00.00	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  3	0.00	472	0:00.00	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  3	0.00	454	0:00.00	Ng3+ fxg3 Ka1 Nd3
  3	-62.37	355	0:00.00	Ka1 Nd3 Ng3+ fxg3
  2	-55.82	312	0:00.00	Ka1 Nd3
  2	-55.82	301	0:00.00	Ka1 Nd3
  2	-55.82	300	0:00.00	Ka1 Nd3
  2	-55.82	154	0:00.00	Ka1 Nd3
  1	-55.05	151	0:00.00	Ka1
Seems it can't crack the other one though

bob
Posts: 20406
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: The unavoidable stalemate

Post by bob » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:22 pm

Arpad Rusz wrote:Another unavoidable stalemate (Rusz, Humor Tourney - 2004):
[D]8/8/8/5N2/5pp1/5p2/pKppprpn/1brqnkb1 w - - 0 1

Thematic try: 1. Ka1? Nd3 2.Ne3+! Ke1 3.Nxg2+! Kf1 4.Ne3+ perpetual check or stalemate. But 1...g3! wins!
The solution: 1. Ng3+! fxg3 2. Ka1! reciprocal zugzwang

[D]8/8/8/8/6p1/5pp1/p1ppprpn/Kbrqnkb1 b - - 0 2

2...Nd3 stalemate
second one is not so good. Why would black want to stalemate white???

What am I missing?

Never mind. :) Black is going toward bottom of board and has no moves except for knight...
Last edited by bob on Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Mike S.
Posts: 1480
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Re: The unavoidable stalemate

Post by Mike S. » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:34 pm

bob wrote:Why would black want to stalemate white???
He has no choice! :mrgreen:

Maybe the 1st Rusz position is suitable to check for bugs? But it is only 4 plies and I did not find an engine which has nullmove/zugzwang problems here. Anyway funny to look at, for humans.
Regards, Mike

Arpad Rusz
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:34 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: The unavoidable stalemate

Post by Arpad Rusz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:41 pm

I have composed a new position:

[D]8/8/8/1p6/2Q1p3/2K3pp/p1p1pprb/k2brqnn w - - 0 1

Draw

F. Bluemers
Posts: 860
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:21 pm
Location: Nederland
Contact:

Re: The unavoidable stalemate

Post by F. Bluemers » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:47 pm

Arpad Rusz wrote:I have composed a new position:

[D]8/8/8/1p6/2Q1p3/2K3pp/p1p1pprb/k2brqnn w - - 0 1

Draw

Code: Select all

 31	0.00	39.2M	0:20.71	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 31	0.00	31.5M	0:16.75	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 30	0.00	27.8M	0:14.64	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 30	0.00	22.1M	0:11.70	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 29	0.00	19.5M	0:10.29	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 29	0.00	15.5M	0:08.23	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 28	0.00	13.8M	0:07.33	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 28	0.00	10.7M	0:05.75	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 27	0.00	9.6M	0:05.21	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 27	0.00	7.5M	0:04.15	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 26	0.00	6.8M	0:03.72	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 26	0.00	5.3M	0:02.96	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 25	0.00	4.8M	0:02.71	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 25	0.00	3.7M	0:02.10	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 24	0.00	3.4M	0:01.90	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 24	0.00	2.6M	0:01.49	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 23	0.00	2.4M	0:01.37	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 23	0.00	1.8M	0:01.07	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 22	0.00	1.6M	0:00.96	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 22	0.00	1.2M	0:00.76	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 21	0.00	1.1M	0:00.70	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 21	0.00	846478	0:00.54	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 20	0.00	758190	0:00.49	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 20	0.00	573686	0:00.39	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 19	0.00	512479	0:00.35	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 19	0.00	389092	0:00.29	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 18	0.00	352872	0:00.26	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 18	0.00	256187	0:00.21	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 17	0.00	224474	0:00.18	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 17	0.00	157749	0:00.15	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 16	0.00	148251	0:00.14	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 16	0.00	107356	0:00.10	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 15	0.00	101373	0:00.10	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 15	0.00	67229	0:00.09	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 14	0.00	63453	0:00.09	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 14	0.00	42486	0:00.07	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 13	0.00	40435	0:00.06	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 13	0.00	31895	0:00.06	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 12	0.00	30587	0:00.06	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 12	0.00	23510	0:00.06	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 11	0.00	22577	0:00.04	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 11	0.00	18256	0:00.04	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 10	0.00	17655	0:00.04	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
 10	0.00	15295	0:00.04	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  9	0.00	14759	0:00.04	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  9	0.00	13267	0:00.04	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  8	0.00	13035	0:00.03	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  8	0.00	11970	0:00.03	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  7	0.00	11809	0:00.03	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  7	0.00	11202	0:00.03	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  6	0.00	11109	0:00.03	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  6	0.00	10891	0:00.03	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  5	0.00	10822	0:00.03	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  5	0.00	10736	0:00.03	Kd2 Nf3+ Kc1 bxc4
  5	-51.32	9222	0:00.03	Qxb5 c1=Q+ Kb4 Kb2 Ka5+ Kc3 Qb4+ Kc2
  4	-50.84	7938	0:00.01	Qxb5 c1=Q+ Kb4 Kb2 Ka5+ Kc3
  4	-50.84	4123	0:00.01	Qxb5 c1=Q+ Kb4 Kb2 Ka5+ Kc3
  3	-52.38	2207	0:00.01	Qxb5 c1=Q+ Kd4 Qc8
  3	-52.38	895	0:00.01	Qxb5 c1=Q+ Kd4 Qc8
  2	-54.67	751	0:00.01	Qxb5 c1=Q+ Kd4
  2	-54.67	731	0:00.01	Qxb5 c1=Q+ Kd4
  2	-54.67	730	0:00.00	Qxb5 c1=Q+ Kd4
  2	-54.67	396	0:00.00	Qxb5 c1=Q+ Kd4
  2	-55.28	328	0:00.00	Qxe4 c1=Q+ Kd4
  2	-55.75	251	0:00.00	Qd4 c1=Q+ Kb4+ Qb2+ Kc5
  1	-52.49	207	0:00.00	Qd4
correct?

Arpad Rusz
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:34 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: The unavoidable stalemate

Post by Arpad Rusz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:26 pm

Yes, it is correct, 1.Kd2 is the first move. The main line is 1.Kd2! bxc4 2.Kc1 reciprocal zugzwang

[D]8/8/8/8/2p1p3/6pp/p1p1pprb/k1Kbrqnn b - - 0 2

2...Nf3/c3/e3 stalemate :lol:

Arpad Rusz
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:34 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: The unavoidable stalemate

Post by Arpad Rusz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:41 pm

The following study is a good test position for engines.

B.Sidorov (64-Shakmatnoe Obozrenie, 1982)
[D]8/8/1p6/1pp5/n1p5/1pp5/brrp1pK1/nqbk4 w - - 0 1

Draw

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