How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

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yanquis1972
Posts: 1766
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:14 am

Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by yanquis1972 »

thanks for remaining classy despite my trashing of your pet line, steve ;) --

i will try to look up your games as well as others; the fact that elite players have reeled out the line once in a blue moon OTB does not, to me, indicate anything whatsoever. re anand-kasparov, what was kasparov's history w/ the dragon? carlsen, similar. are we going to say the king's gambit is a good opening for white based simply on results among top players the past couple years? that argument doesn't hold water with me.

i am not opposed to the sveshnikov either; i was getting a bit of fischeritis with the blusterity of my comments hence the najdorf remark.

at any rate, the dragon is most certainly a gutsy opening &, i suppose if you're confident you won't get blown off the board -- probably unlikely in correspondence chess -- you can reach a fair endgame. i would never play it against someone of equal strength; i think mchshane did beat short in a dragon a few days ago but a)he's more talented at this point & b)short clearly missed several opportunities. still a fun opening, still hope it's played OTB (as with the kings gambit)...don't see it as sound at this point. but i promise to do some solid research.
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OliverUwira
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:57 am
Location: Frankfurt am Main

Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by OliverUwira »

Well, my remark about the Sveshnikov had nothing to do with what you were saying. But others often claim it's been refuted, which is plain wrong.

As for the Dragon, one needs balls to play it against equal competition, because you have to be booked up to the teeth. But just being difficult to play doesn't imply theoretically dead.

The same goes for the King's Gambit.
mhalstern
Posts: 484
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:09 am

Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by mhalstern »

Back to the original topic:

After almost 15 hours (I let the ply finish) Zappa thinks that b3 is best. It is clearly winning. I am not disputing that f4 is winning as well, but I strongly suspect that I gives black some more options.

New game
r2qkb1r/1b1n1pp1/p3p2p/3pn1P1/Np1NP2P/4BP1B/PPPQ4/2KR3R w kq - 0 1

Analysis by Zappa Mexico II 64:

1.b3 h5 2.Rhg1 Ng6 3.exd5 Bxd5 4.Qf2 Qc7
+/= (0.65) Depth: 9/35 00:00:00 801kN
1.b3 h5 2.Rhg1 Ng6 3.exd5 Bxd5 4.Qf2
+/= (0.65) Depth: 9/35 00:00:00 1053kN
1.b3 h5 2.Rhg1 Ng6 3.exd5 Bxd5 4.Qf2 a5
+/- (0.75) Depth: 10/37 00:00:01 1978kN
1.b3 h5 2.Rhg1 Ng6 3.exd5 Bxd5 4.Qf2 a5
+/- (0.75) Depth: 10/39 00:00:01 2562kN
1.b3 h5 2.Rhg1 Ng6 3.exd5 Bxd5 4.Qf2 a5
+/- (0.75) Depth: 11/39 00:00:01 3507kN
1.b3 h5 2.Rhg1 Ng6 3.exd5 Bxd5 4.Qf2 a5
+/- (0.75) Depth: 11/41 00:00:02 4618kN
1.b3 dxe4 2.f4 Nf3 3.Nxf3 exf3 4.g6 Bc6 5.Rhe1 Qf6 6.gxf7+ Kxf7 7.Bd4 e5 8.Bxd7 Bxd7 9.Bxe5
+/= (0.59) Depth: 12/43 00:00:03 8593kN
1.b3 dxe4 2.f4 Nf3 3.Nxf3 exf3 4.g6 Bc6 5.Rhe1 Qf6 6.gxf7+ Kxf7 7.Bd4 e5 8.Bxd7 Bxd7 9.Bxe5
+/= (0.59) Depth: 12/43 00:00:05 14728kN
1.b3 dxe4 2.f4 Nf3 3.Nxf3 exf3 4.g6 Bc6 5.Rhe1 Qf6 6.gxf7+ Kxf7 7.Bd4 e5 8.Bxd7 Bxd7 9.Bxe5
+/= (0.59) Depth: 13/45 00:00:07 19296kN
1.b3 dxe4 2.f4 Nf3 3.Nxf3 exf3 4.g6 Bc6 5.Rhe1 Qf6 6.gxf7+ Kxf7 7.Bd4 e5 8.Bxd7 Bxd7 9.Bxe5
+/= (0.59) Depth: 13/45 00:00:10 28125kN
1.b3 dxe4 2.f4 Nf3 3.Nxf3 exf3 4.f5 Bd5 5.g6 Qe7 6.gxf7+ Qxf7 7.fxe6 Bxe6 8.Bxe6 Qxe6 9.Qxd7+ Qxd7 10.Rxd7 Kxd7
+/- (0.77) Depth: 14/47 00:00:20 54525kN
1.b3 dxe4 2.f4 Nf3 3.Nxf3 exf3 4.f5 Bd5 5.g6 Qe7 6.gxf7+ Qxf7 7.fxe6 Bxe6 8.Bxe6 Qxe6 9.Qxd7+ Qxd7 10.Rxd7 Kxd7
+/- (0.77) Depth: 14/47 00:00:26 70464kN
1.b3 Qa5 2.Kb1 Rd8 3.f4 Nc4 4.bxc4 Qxa4 5.exd5 Nc5 6.Bg2 Qa3 7.Nb3
+/- (0.90) Depth: 15/49 00:00:50 138mN
1.b3 Qa5 2.Kb1 Rd8 3.f4 Nc4 4.bxc4 Qxa4 5.exd5 Nc5 6.Bg2 Qa3 7.Nb3
+/- (0.90) Depth: 15/49 00:01:00 168mN
1.b3 h5 2.Bxe6 fxe6 3.Nxe6 Qa5 4.exd5 Kf7 5.Bb6 Nxb6 6.Nxb6 Bd6 7.Nxa8 Bxa8
+/- (0.97) Depth: 16/51 00:01:53 319mN
1.b3 h5 2.Bxe6 fxe6 3.Nxe6 Qa5 4.exd5 Kf7 5.Bb6 Nxb6 6.Nxb6 Bd6 7.Nxa8 Bxa8
+/- (0.97) Depth: 16/51 00:02:25 411mN
1.b3 h5 2.Bxe6 fxe6 3.Nxe6 Qa5 4.exd5 Kf7 5.Bb6 Nxb6 6.Nxb6 Bd6 7.Nxa8 Bxa8
+/- (0.97) Depth: 17/53 00:03:10 538mN
1.b3 h5 2.Bxe6 fxe6 3.Nxe6 Qa5 4.exd5 Kf7 5.Bb6 Nxb6 6.Nxb6 Bd6 7.Nxa8 Bxa8
+/- (0.97) Depth: 17/53 00:04:51 804mN
1.b3 Qa5 2.Kb1 0-0-0 3.f4 Nc4 4.bxc4 Qxa4 5.cxd5 Nc5 6.dxe6 Be7 7.exf7+ Kb8 8.Qc1 Nxe4 9.Ne2 Qb5 10.Rxd8+ Rxd8
+/- (1.06) Depth: 18/55 00:11:01 1856mN
1.b3 Qa5 2.Kb1 0-0-0 3.f4 Nc4 4.bxc4 Qxa4 5.cxd5 Nc5 6.dxe6 Be7 7.exf7+ Kb8 8.Qc1 Nxe4 9.Ne2 Qb5 10.Rxd8+ Rxd8
+/- (1.06) Depth: 18/55 00:13:44 2317mN
1.b3 Qa5 2.Kb1 h5 3.f4 Ng4 4.Bxg4 hxg4 5.g6 e5 6.Ne2 fxg6 7.exd5 Nf6 8.fxe5 Qxd5 9.exf6 Qxd2
+/- (1.13) Depth: 19/57 00:20:12 3380mN
1.b3 Qa5 2.Kb1 h5 3.f4 Ng4 4.Bxg4 hxg4 5.g6 e5 6.Ne2 fxg6 7.exd5 Nf6 8.fxe5 Qxd5 9.exf6 Qxd2
+/- (1.13) Depth: 19/57 00:30:53 5197mN
1.b3 h5 2.Bf4 Ng6 3.Bxe6 fxe6 4.Nxe6 Qe7 5.Nc7+ Kf7 6.Nxa8 Bxa8 7.Bg3 Kg8 8.Kb1 Qf7 9.Rhf1 Ne7 10.Bd6 Ng6 11.Bxb4
+/- (1.24) Depth: 20/59 01:02:04 10554mN
1.b3 h5 2.Bf4 Ng6 3.Bxe6 fxe6 4.Nxe6 Qe7 5.Nc7+ Kf7 6.Nxa8 Bxa8 7.Bg3 Kg8 8.Kb1 Qf7 9.Rhf1 Ne7 10.Bd6
+/- (1.24) Depth: 20/59 01:47:30 18386mN
1.b3 hxg5 2.hxg5 Qa5 3.Kb1 Rd8 4.f4 Nc4 5.bxc4 Qxa4 6.exd5 Nc5 7.Bg2 Rxh1 8.Bxh1 Qa3 9.Nb3 Na4 10.Bd4 Be7 11.Ka1 exd5 12.cxd5 Bxd5
+/- (1.24) Depth: 21/61 02:25:38 24986mN
1.b3 hxg5 2.hxg5 Qa5 3.Kb1 Rd8 4.f4 Nc4 5.bxc4 Qxa4 6.exd5 Nc5 7.Bg2 Rxh1 8.Bxh1 Qa3 9.Nb3 Na4 10.Bd4 Be7 11.Ka1 exd5 12.cxd5 Bxd5
+/- (1.24) Depth: 21/61 03:03:53 31620mN
1.b3 hxg5 2.hxg5 Qa5 3.Kb1 Rd8 4.f4 Nc4 5.bxc4 Qxa4 6.exd5 Nc5 7.Bg2 Rxh1 8.Bxh1 Qa3 9.Nb3 Na4 10.Bd4 Be7 11.Ka1 exd5 12.cxd5
+/- (1.24) Depth: 22/63 03:52:54 40117mN
1.b3 hxg5 2.hxg5 Qa5 3.Kb1 Rd8 4.f4 Nc4 5.bxc4 Qxa4 6.exd5 Nc5 7.Bg2 Rxh1 8.Bxh1 Qa3 9.Nb3 Na4 10.Bd4 Be7 11.Ka1 exd5 12.cxd5
+/- (1.24) Depth: 22/63 05:43:06 59368mN
1.b3 hxg5 2.hxg5 Qa5 3.Kb1 0-0-0 4.f4 Nc4 5.bxc4 Qxa4 6.exd5 Rxh3 7.Rxh3 exd5 8.Qd3 Nc5 9.Qf5+ Qd7 10.Qxd7+ Kxd7 11.Ne2 Ke8 12.Bxc5 Bxc5
+- (1.43) Depth: 23/65 09:44:45 101635mN
1.b3 hxg5 2.hxg5 Qa5 3.Kb1 0-0-0 4.f4 Nc4 5.bxc4 Qxa4 6.exd5 Rxh3 7.Rxh3 exd5 8.Qd3 Nc5 9.Qf5+ Qd7 10.Qxd7+ Kxd7 11.Ne2 Ke8 12.Bxc5 Bxc5
+- (1.43) Depth: 23/65 14:48:26 154313mN
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Kirk
Posts: 5699
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:44 am

Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by Kirk »

Dann Corbit wrote:[d]r2qkb1r/1b1n1pp1/p3p2p/3pn1P1/Np1NP2P/4BP1B/PPPQ4/2KR3R w kq - acd 22; acn 3934445095; acs 772; bm f4; ce 98; pv f4 Nc4 Qe2 hxg5 hxg5 Qa5 b3 Ndb6 exd5 Nxd5 bxc4 Qxa4 cxd5 Bxd5 Qd3 Qxa2 Nb3 Rc8 Bxe6 fxe6 Rxh8 Qxb3 Qg6+ Ke7 Bd4 Qa3+ Bb2 Qe3+ Kb1 Qf3 Re1 Qxf4 Bxg7 Qf2 Qf6+ Qxf6 gxf6+ Kf7 Kb2 Ra8 Ra1 Bxg7 fxg7 Kxg7 Rxa8 Bxa8 Kb3 e5 Rxa6 Bb7 Ra7;

Shredder 10.1 with an unusual personality found it pretty quick :)

r2qkb1r/1b1n1pp1/p3p2p/3pn1P1/Np1NP2P/4BP1B/PPPQ4/2KR3R w kq -

Engine: Shredder 10.1 UCI Tricky Tahoma (4 MB)
by Stefan Meyer-Kahlen

1/02 0:00 -0.02-- 1.Nxe6 (2) 0

1/09 0:00 -0.02 1.Nxe6 (62) 3

1/09 0:00 +0.30++ 1.Bxe6 (79) 4

1/09 0:00 +0.65++ 1.Bxe6 (120) 7

1/09 0:00 +1.33 1.Bxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 dxe4 3.fxe4 Bxe4
4.gxh6 (218) 13

2/03 0:00 +1.33 1.Bxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 dxe4 3.fxe4 Bxe4
4.gxh6 (301) 18

3/10 0:00 +1.08-- 1.Bxe6 fxe6 (970) 60

3/13 0:00 +1.08 1.Bxe6 dxe4 2.f4 (1.173) 73

4/21 0:00 +1.08 1.Bxe6 dxe4 2.f4 fxe6 (6.058) 189

5/20 0:00 +1.14 1.Bxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 hxg5 3.Nxg5 (12.188) 193

6/24 0:00 +0.89-- 1.Bxe6 fxe6 (19.225) 246

6/24 0:00 +0.81 1.Bxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 hxg5 3.Nxf8 Rxf8
4.hxg5 (26.976) 245

7/25 0:00 +0.81 1.Bxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 hxg5 3.Nxf8 Rxf8
4.hxg5 (89.892) 319

7/25 0:00 +0.82++ 1.f4 (103.774) 316

7/25 0:00 +1.08 1.f4 dxe4 2.fxe5 Nxe5 3.Bxe6 fxe6
4.Nxe6 (143.013) 327

8/29 0:00 +1.08 1.f4 dxe4 2.fxe5 Nxe5 3.Bxe6 fxe6
4.Nxe6 Qxd2+ 5.Rxd2 (289.988) 343

9/29 0:01 +0.88 1.f4 dxe4 2.fxe5 Nxe5 3.Bf4 (562.442) 353

9/29 0:02 +0.89++ 1.Nxe6 (828.544) 358

9/29 0:02 +1.12 1.Nxe6 fxe6 2.exd5 Bxd5 3.Qxd5 exd5
4.Rxd5 Rc8 (895.116) 360

10/25 0:02 +0.87-- 1.Nxe6 fxe6 (1.038.385) 359

10/26 0:03 +0.49 1.Nxe6 fxe6 2.f4 dxe4 3.fxe5 Nxe5
4.Bxe6 hxg5 5.Bxg5 Qxd2+ 6.Rxd2 Rc8 (1.393.281) 365

10/30 0:04 +0.50++ 1.f4 (1.589.216) 367

10/31 0:06 +0.73 1.f4 Nc4 2.Nxe6 fxe6 3.exd5 Bxd5
4.Qxd5 exd5 (2.534.057) 365

11/32 0:12 +0.97 1.f4 Qa5 2.Nxe6 (4.624.880) 369

12/35 0:33 +0.74 1.f4 Nc4 2.g6 fxg6 3.exd5 exd5 4.Qd3 Qf6
5.Bxd7+ Kxd7 6.Qxc4 (12.698.388) 379
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