Komodo - Rybka in Danger?

[benstoker]

Well, this stuff was made public by the clones, and anyway Vas had asked me to keep such general eval knowledge confidential for a year, and it's now been a year and a half. Still I won't reveal exact values of terms in R3 even if they are more or less public due to the clones (or "derivatives" if you prefer). I doubt that they would be of much use to a non-clone program anyway, as different programs require different values for terms.

I would like to know something:
1. If only you and Vas had the Rybka 3 code, how did the "cloners" managed to get it ?
2. If Rybka's code is alredy "stealed", why you and Vas don't present evidences that the "cloners" code and the Rybka 3 one is the same?

For what reason should they do this? Every reasonable person already knows that these "clones" are based on Rybka, and whoever is left is not going to be convinced no matter what additional evidence is presented.

I know from my own dealings with people that if someone really want to believe something, no amount of evidence or logic is going to change them.

"Every reasonable person already knows that these "clones" are based on Rybka, "

You mean:
1. I am not a reasonable person because I don't know that these "clones" are based on Rybka;

I apologize for my choice of wording. I don't mean to say that you are an unreasonable person, only that the conclusion you are drawing is unreasonable.

Please understand that I'm not saying you are stupid. I have seen very smart people come to the wrong conclusions based on emotion or some kind of bias. It's part of being human and we are all subject to it.

I don't want to get too psychological here, but humans tend to make judgments based on what they want to believe, not what it actually the case. I personally believe the facts in this case are really obvious and that if you don't see them, you don't want to see them.

The way this works is that if something is presented that you don't like, it's "innuendo" and "opinion" and if you like it, it's "fact" and "evidence."

2. and also that Robert Hyatt is not a reasonable person, because he doesn't know that these "clones" are based on Rybka;

Name dropping to make a point is hardly evidence one way or the other. And even if you take Bob as the ultimate judge or authority on this he said he doesn't know and that is not particularly unreasonable (unless he really looked at the facts and still thinks it is in doubt.)

3. and also that all those who don't know that these "clones" are based on Rybka - they don't know it because Vasic did not provide any evidence in this sense -, are not reasonable persons.

Vas is under no compulsion to provide evidence on this just because you think he should. Is this another example of how you reason on things? To do so would be counter-productive for him. Please tell me WHY he needs to do this, and how it would benefit him. Do you think people will buy Rybka if he reveals that another program is based on Rybka? If he sues do you think it will help his case to reveal his arguments to give his opponents time to prepare? Do you think he should actually reveal his code to the world to make some kind of point that he cannot benefit from? And Vas must surely know that even if he reveals sections of identical or similar code it will not stop unreasonable people from explaining it away. Go the web sites and look at the people who still believe the earth is flat and that the moon landing were faked and you will see exactly what Vas would be dealing with - and then tell me why he should deal with this when there would be no benefit whatsoever in doing so - and in fact would be a huge distraction for him.

It's presumptuous and arrogant to believe that Vas must answer to us just because we want a show. In my opinion he is showing wisdom and restraint by just moving on - which is what you and I need to do.

You know what?

This statement of yours reminded me a short tale called: "The Emperor's New Clothes", by Hans Christian Andersen, about two weavers-crooks who promise an Emperor a new suit of clothes invisible to those who are incompetent or not enough inteligent.

I really hope you are not a programmer-crook, and that what you said was a simple accident, a LAPSUS LINGUAE, because stupidity it was not, for sure.

I think in this case you are being unreasonable again.

Let's get Don's argument straight. It seems to me that you're saying if someone walks into my house and steals my family heirloom, I am under no compulsion to call the police or sue in the civil courts if I know the thief? I guess you're completely correct! I can do nothing and kiss that heirloom GOOD-BYE.

Any company that thinks their code has been misappropriated and gives a damn about it, will do something about it. They are under no cimpulsion to do anything of course, just as you say. They can sit and eat window putty all day and feel sorry for themselves while the thieves make off with their property.

Yeah, sure, Vas is under no compulsion to do anything. Do you believe that's his attitude presently? Do nothing?

Doing nothing has LEGAL consequences. There is presently no legitimate entity claiming a copyright on the ippo/robbo code and it is, momentarily, public domain.

SOMEONE must come forth and claim it as their code, Vas or whoever, and if they hope to control the USE of the code, then they will need to make a case like any software piracy claim and prove that they own it and it was stolen.

That's how the real world works.

All the he-said-she-said-you-are-a-moron crap will have ZERO effect on keeping this code from the Public Domain, and it appears we're on that present course, i.e., the ippolit, et al. code will be ownerless and in the public domain for all to use and improve.

Vas can do nothing, and I would bet a million bucks there are a lot of people likeing the fact that Vas is staying mum on the issue, because, right now, he's the only one who has made a putative claim, without presently adequate substantion, and that indifference WILL result very soon in the LEGAL RIGHT to use that code.

I will go further, if someone has stolen a diamond ring from someone at the Governor's Ball and when the Governor stands before the crowd and says "Anybody lost a diamond ring tonight." Well, if you're the fat lady who owns that ring, you better step up make the claim. And if another fat lady says it's hers, then you'll have two fat ladies that need to prove ownership. If no one at all claims the ring, after being asked, it'll sit in the Governor's desk for a while, waiting for a claimant, and before long, deemed abandoned, sold at auction, or else given to the Governor's fat wife.

Resting on your laurels is the worst approach. Resting on your lauresl always leads to LOSS of legal rights in every context. Use somebody's land openly and notoriously for a long time, without getting kicked off -- it'll become your land by squatter's rights. Same concept pervades I.P. law. It's because the "times marches on".

Don, if your advice to Vas it "sit it out", "rest on your laurels", you don't have to prove anything, that 's not good advice for him. He will LOSE his property.

As for proving the case. You say damned if you do, damned if you don't. Not necessarily. Software cases requiring code examination are conducted under the Court's strict orders of confidentiality by only authorized experts, otherewise nobody with IP to protect could ever go to Court when their software source has been misappropriated!

Still, so much more could be done now to make the case.

[Michael Sherwin]

Well, this stuff was made public by the clones, and anyway Vas had asked me to keep such general eval knowledge confidential for a year, and it's now been a year and a half. Still I won't reveal exact values of terms in R3 even if they are more or less public due to the clones (or "derivatives" if you prefer). I doubt that they would be of much use to a non-clone program anyway, as different programs require different values for terms.

I would like to know something:
1. If only you and Vas had the Rybka 3 code, how did the "cloners" managed to get it ?
2. If Rybka's code is alredy "stealed", why you and Vas don't present evidences that the "cloners" code and the Rybka 3 one is the same?

For what reason should they do this? Every reasonable person already knows that these "clones" are based on Rybka, and whoever is left is not going to be convinced no matter what additional evidence is presented.

I know from my own dealings with people that if someone really want to believe something, no amount of evidence or logic is going to change them.

You paint everyone that is not firmly in your camp about this subject as unreasonable about this subject. That is unreasonable in and of itself as I (and others) apparently do not know what you know. We, for the most part do not believe any particular side. We are asking for enough real proof so that we know that we are not condemning the authors of Ippolit unjustly. You and all the magistrates in your camp just want us, the mob, to conduct a lynching without having a trial based solely on what you believe or claim that you know. I for one am not convinced that your knowing is not merely faith based and without solid support. Logically, it is not up to the people that do not know to prove a negative, however, it is up to the people that claim that they know for sure to prove positively that they are correct. If no one on your side is willing to do that then in the end, you have no case.

[Don]

Let's get Don's argument straight. It seems to me that you're saying if someone walks into my house and steals my family heirloom, I am under no compulsion to call the police or sue in the civil courts if I know the thief? I guess you're completely correct! I can do nothing and kiss that heirloom GOOD-BYE.

I am completely correct just as you say, so what's your point?

Any company that thinks their code has been misappropriated and gives a damn about it, will do something about it. They are under no cimpulsion to do anything of course, just as you say. They can sit and eat window putty all day and feel sorry for themselves while the thieves make off with their property.

Let's get to the point. Why do you think Vas is not going after the thieves?

Yeah, sure, Vas is under no compulsion to do anything. Do you believe that's his attitude presently? Do nothing?

Vas is building a Rybka rental system which he believes will circumvent the clone problem. It's pretty obvious he is not happy with what has happened and that he thinks this is the way to deal with it.

I think it's time that you state what you think is really going on. You seem to be implying a lot without actually bringing out anything of real substance.

Doing nothing has LEGAL consequences. There is presently no legitimate entity claiming a copyright on the ippo/robbo code and it is, momentarily, public domain.

SOMEONE must come forth and claim it as their code, Vas or whoever, and if they hope to control the USE of the code, then they will need to make a case like any software piracy claim and prove that they own it and it was stolen.

That's how the real world works.

All the he-said-she-said-you-are-a-moron crap will have ZERO effect on keeping this code from the Public Domain, and it appears we're on that present course, i.e., the ippolit, et al. code will be ownerless and in the public domain for all to use and improve.

Vas can do nothing, and I would bet a million bucks there are a lot of people likeing the fact that Vas is staying mum on the issue, because, right now, he's the only one who has made a putative claim, without presently adequate substantion, and that indifference WILL result very soon in the LEGAL RIGHT to use that code.

I will go further, if someone has stolen a diamond ring from someone at the Governor's Ball and when the Governor stands before the crowd and says "Anybody lost a diamond ring tonight." Well, if you're the fat lady who owns that ring, you better step up make the claim. And if another fat lady says it's hers, then you'll have two fat ladies that need to prove ownership. If no one at all claims the ring, after being asked, it'll sit in the Governor's desk for a while, waiting for a claimant, and before long, deemed abandoned, sold at auction, or else given to the Governor's fat wife.

Resting on your laurels is the worst approach.

I'm confused now. Are you making a statement that you believe that Vas is simply making bad business decisions or that he is hiding something?

Resting on your lauresl always leads to LOSS of legal rights in every context. Use somebody's land openly and notoriously for a long time, without getting kicked off -- it'll become your land by squatter's rights. Same concept pervades I.P. law. It's because the "times marches on".

Don, if your advice to Vas it "sit it out", "rest on your laurels", you don't have to prove anything, that 's not good advice for him. He will LOSE his property.

As for proving the case. You say damned if you do, damned if you don't. Not necessarily. Software cases requiring code examination are conducted under the Court's strict orders of confidentiality by only authorized experts, otherewise nobody with IP to protect could ever go to Court when their software source has been misappropriated!

I think what Vas does is really his business. It's not clear to me that just going into litigation is unquestionably the best thing to do. It's easier to make decisions using other peoples money and lawsuits always come with a price, even when you win them.

The main issue to me is that it's "unreasonable" to conclude that Vas is hiding something because he doesn't aggressively go after the cloners.

Still, so much more could be done now to make the case.

Again I ask, for what purpose? Pandora is already out of the box and the code has been exposed to the world and no court order is going to make that go away. Vas should invest a huge amount of money in litigation against some party who probably has no money to pay out and may not even be subject to prosecution by our laws.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Well, this stuff was made public by the clones, and anyway Vas had asked me to keep such general eval knowledge confidential for a year, and it's now been a year and a half. Still I won't reveal exact values of terms in R3 even if they are more or less public due to the clones (or "derivatives" if you prefer). I doubt that they would be of much use to a non-clone program anyway, as different programs require different values for terms.

I would like to know something:
1. If only you and Vas had the Rybka 3 code, how did the "cloners" managed to get it ?
2. If Rybka's code is alredy "stealed", why you and Vas don't present evidences that the "cloners" code and the Rybka 3 one is the same?

For what reason should they do this? Every reasonable person already knows that these "clones" are based on Rybka, and whoever is left is not going to be convinced no matter what additional evidence is presented.

I know from my own dealings with people that if someone really want to believe something, no amount of evidence or logic is going to change them.

"Every reasonable person already knows that these "clones" are based on Rybka, "

You mean:
1. I am not a reasonable person because I don't know that these "clones" are based on Rybka;

I apologize for my choice of wording. I don't mean to say that you are an unreasonable person, only that the conclusion you are drawing is unreasonable.

Please understand that I'm not saying you are stupid. I have seen very smart people come to the wrong conclusions based on emotion or some kind of bias. It's part of being human and we are all subject to it.

I don't want to get too psychological here, but humans tend to make judgments based on what they want to believe, not what it actually the case. I personally believe the facts in this case are really obvious and that if you don't see them, you don't want to see them.

The way this works is that if something is presented that you don't like, it's "innuendo" and "opinion" and if you like it, it's "fact" and "evidence."

2. and also that Robert Hyatt is not a reasonable person, because he doesn't know that these "clones" are based on Rybka;

Name dropping to make a point is hardly evidence one way or the other. And even if you take Bob as the ultimate judge or authority on this he said he doesn't know and that is not particularly unreasonable (unless he really looked at the facts and still thinks it is in doubt.)

3. and also that all those who don't know that these "clones" are based on Rybka - they don't know it because Vasic did not provide any evidence in this sense -, are not reasonable persons.

Vas is under no compulsion to provide evidence on this just because you think he should. Is this another example of how you reason on things? To do so would be counter-productive for him. Please tell me WHY he needs to do this, and how it would benefit him. Do you think people will buy Rybka if he reveals that another program is based on Rybka? If he sues do you think it will help his case to reveal his arguments to give his opponents time to prepare? Do you think he should actually reveal his code to the world to make some kind of point that he cannot benefit from? And Vas must surely know that even if he reveals sections of identical or similar code it will not stop unreasonable people from explaining it away. Go the web sites and look at the people who still believe the earth is flat and that the moon landing were faked and you will see exactly what Vas would be dealing with - and then tell me why he should deal with this when there would be no benefit whatsoever in doing so - and in fact would be a huge distraction for him.

It's presumptuous and arrogant to believe that Vas must answer to us just because we want a show. In my opinion he is showing wisdom and restraint by just moving on - which is what you and I need to do.

You know what?

This statement of yours reminded me a short tale called: "The Emperor's New Clothes", by Hans Christian Andersen, about two weavers-crooks who promise an Emperor a new suit of clothes invisible to those who are incompetent or not enough inteligent.

I really hope you are not a programmer-crook, and that what you said was a simple accident, a LAPSUS LINGUAE, because stupidity it was not, for sure.

I think in this case you are being unreasonable again.

Then Vas could quite easily shut his big mouth and stop pointing fingers at the others transforming them into thieves and claiming himself as the ultimate victim....why start a conflict when you don't want to finish it
Going down this road of thoughts we can quite easily say that he's not entitled to release the promised Rybka 3+ just because we think he should
Dr.D

[Don]

Well, this stuff was made public by the clones, and anyway Vas had asked me to keep such general eval knowledge confidential for a year, and it's now been a year and a half. Still I won't reveal exact values of terms in R3 even if they are more or less public due to the clones (or "derivatives" if you prefer). I doubt that they would be of much use to a non-clone program anyway, as different programs require different values for terms.

I would like to know something:
1. If only you and Vas had the Rybka 3 code, how did the "cloners" managed to get it ?
2. If Rybka's code is alredy "stealed", why you and Vas don't present evidences that the "cloners" code and the Rybka 3 one is the same?

For what reason should they do this? Every reasonable person already knows that these "clones" are based on Rybka, and whoever is left is not going to be convinced no matter what additional evidence is presented.

I know from my own dealings with people that if someone really want to believe something, no amount of evidence or logic is going to change them.

You paint everyone that is not firmly in your camp about this subject as unreasonable about this subject. That is unreasonable in and of itself as I (and others) apparently do not know what you know. We, for the most part do not believe any particular side. We are asking for enough real proof so that we know that we are not condemning the authors of Ippolit unjustly. You and all the magistrates in your camp just want us, the mob, to conduct a lynching without having a trial based solely on what you believe or claim that you know. I for one am not convinced that your knowing is not merely faith based and without solid support. Logically, it is not up to the people that do not know to prove a negative, however, it is up to the people that claim that they know for sure to prove positively that they are correct. If no one on your side is willing to do that then in the end, you have no case.

It's not really like that. The issue is the underlying message that Vas is some of kind of lying fraud. Nobody want to talk directly about what is really being implied here, and instead wants to take little jabs and imply that Vas must be guilty of something because he is afraid to aggressively go after the cloners. He must be hiding something - he must be afraid or otherwise he would do that because we think he should. It's a government cover-up!

I'm not speaking to those who really want to know the facts, which have already been clearly presented - I'm speaking to those who seem to have a need to dismiss or ignore the facts.

I would also like to say that I don't know how I got sucked into this. I personally don't really care that much on a personal level there is nothing at stake for me - it's just that my own personal sense of justice is offended when I see someone get ripped off like Vas was, and this is followed up by character assassination cleverly disguised as concern for his well being.

[Michael Sherwin]

Well, this stuff was made public by the clones, and anyway Vas had asked me to keep such general eval knowledge confidential for a year, and it's now been a year and a half. Still I won't reveal exact values of terms in R3 even if they are more or less public due to the clones (or "derivatives" if you prefer). I doubt that they would be of much use to a non-clone program anyway, as different programs require different values for terms.

I would like to know something:
1. If only you and Vas had the Rybka 3 code, how did the "cloners" managed to get it ?
2. If Rybka's code is alredy "stealed", why you and Vas don't present evidences that the "cloners" code and the Rybka 3 one is the same?

For what reason should they do this? Every reasonable person already knows that these "clones" are based on Rybka, and whoever is left is not going to be convinced no matter what additional evidence is presented.

I know from my own dealings with people that if someone really want to believe something, no amount of evidence or logic is going to change them.

You paint everyone that is not firmly in your camp about this subject as unreasonable about this subject. That is unreasonable in and of itself as I (and others) apparently do not know what you know. We, for the most part do not believe any particular side. We are asking for enough real proof so that we know that we are not condemning the authors of Ippolit unjustly. You and all the magistrates in your camp just want us, the mob, to conduct a lynching without having a trial based solely on what you believe or claim that you know. I for one am not convinced that your knowing is not merely faith based and without solid support. Logically, it is not up to the people that do not know to prove a negative, however, it is up to the people that claim that they know for sure to prove positively that they are correct. If no one on your side is willing to do that then in the end, you have no case.

It's not really like that. The issue is the underlying message that Vas is some of kind of lying fraud. Nobody want to talk directly about what is really being implied here, and instead wants to take little jabs and imply that Vas must be guilty of something because he is afraid to aggressively go after the cloners. He must be hiding something - he must be afraid or otherwise he would do that because we think he should. It's a government cover-up!

I'm not speaking to those who really want to know the facts, which have already been clearly presented - I'm speaking to those who seem to have a need to dismiss or ignore the facts.

I would also like to say that I don't know how I got sucked into this. I personally don't really care that much on a personal level there is nothing at stake for me - it's just that my own personal sense of justice is offended when I see someone get ripped off like Vas was, and this is followed up by character assassination cleverly disguised as concern for his well being.

It is unfortunate that a very few have made this about Vas. The issue for me and I presume most others is Ippolit and its legality and nothing more. I do not want to believe blindly either way. But, as I said above it is not up to the people that do not know, to prove anything and we have waited long enough for the people that do know to prove it to us. As a member of the jury I conclude that the prosecution has failed to prove their case or even make their case. I vote not guilty.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

It's not really like that. The issue is the underlying message that Vas is some of kind of lying fraud. Nobody want to talk directly about what is really being implied here, and instead wants to take little jabs and imply that Vas must be guilty of something because he is afraid to aggressively go after the cloners. He must be hiding something - he must be afraid or otherwise he would do that because we think he should. It's a government cover-up!

__He definitely falls into this category

I'm not speaking to those who really want to know the facts, which have already been clearly presented - I'm speaking to those who seem to have a need to dismiss or ignore the facts.

__What facts are you talking about,we haven't hear or say anything yet

I would also like to say that I don't know how I got sucked into this. I personally don't really care that much on a personal level there is nothing at stake for me - it's just that my own personal sense of justice is offended when I see someone get ripped off like Vas was, and this is followed up by character assassination cleverly disguised as concern for his well being.

__Vasik has drown himself into a moral cesspoll by lying to the clients and fans of Rybka by not releasing the Rybka 3+ and yes I am making my point for the 10 000 time already because I have the rihgt to recieve Rybka 3+ as an honest customer paid for his piece of software....

[Graham Banks]

I really hope you are not a programmer-crook

This is beyond what is acceptable. Why don't you find another forum where your views will be more welcome?

[mariaclara]

Slobo

contrary to his Siimpson avatar - he is sharp.

Now, now, now don't lose hope.

Hush bb. it simply means you must adjust.

he is very slick and witty.

take a break Slobo.

Remember what Stalin said:

" One step backwards,

& 1 more ,

you fall & knock your head "

hehehe.. jz kddin....

but seriously, you must upgrade.

have a nice weekend....

...

[bob]

Well, this stuff was made public by the clones, and anyway Vas had asked me to keep such general eval knowledge confidential for a year, and it's now been a year and a half. Still I won't reveal exact values of terms in R3 even if they are more or less public due to the clones (or "derivatives" if you prefer). I doubt that they would be of much use to a non-clone program anyway, as different programs require different values for terms.

I would like to know something:
1. If only you and Vas had the Rybka 3 code, how did the "cloners" managed to get it ?
2. If Rybka's code is alredy "stealed", why you and Vas don't present evidences that the "cloners" code and the Rybka 3 one is the same?

For what reason should they do this? Every reasonable person already knows that these "clones" are based on Rybka, and whoever is left is not going to be convinced no matter what additional evidence is presented.

I know from my own dealings with people that if someone really want to believe something, no amount of evidence or logic is going to change them.

"Every reasonable person already knows that these "clones" are based on Rybka, "

You mean:
1. I am not a reasonable person because I don't know that these "clones" are based on Rybka;

I apologize for my choice of wording. I don't mean to say that you are an unreasonable person, only that the conclusion you are drawing is unreasonable.

Please understand that I'm not saying you are stupid. I have seen very smart people come to the wrong conclusions based on emotion or some kind of bias. It's part of being human and we are all subject to it.

I don't want to get too psychological here, but humans tend to make judgments based on what they want to believe, not what it actually the case. I personally believe the facts in this case are really obvious and that if you don't see them, you don't want to see them.

The way this works is that if something is presented that you don't like, it's "innuendo" and "opinion" and if you like it, it's "fact" and "evidence."

2. and also that Robert Hyatt is not a reasonable person, because he doesn't know that these "clones" are based on Rybka;

Name dropping to make a point is hardly evidence one way or the other. And even if you take Bob as the ultimate judge or authority on this he said he doesn't know and that is not particularly unreasonable (unless he really looked at the facts and still thinks it is in doubt.)

3. and also that all those who don't know that these "clones" are based on Rybka - they don't know it because Vasic did not provide any evidence in this sense -, are not reasonable persons.

Vas is under no compulsion to provide evidence on this just because you think he should. Is this another example of how you reason on things? To do so would be counter-productive for him. Please tell me WHY he needs to do this, and how it would benefit him. Do you think people will buy Rybka if he reveals that another program is based on Rybka? If he sues do you think it will help his case to reveal his arguments to give his opponents time to prepare? Do you think he should actually reveal his code to the world to make some kind of point that he cannot benefit from? And Vas must surely know that even if he reveals sections of identical or similar code it will not stop unreasonable people from explaining it away. Go the web sites and look at the people who still believe the earth is flat and that the moon landing were faked and you will see exactly what Vas would be dealing with - and then tell me why he should deal with this when there would be no benefit whatsoever in doing so - and in fact would be a huge distraction for him.

Here we are in 100% _disagreement. Vas made the claim that Robo* is a clone. It _is_ his reponsibility to back that up with more than "just because I say so". He could have said nothing, in which case no evidence would be needed, or since he did make the claim, he should have (and still should) provide something to support it.

I find it impossible to believe that you _really_ think it is ok to accuse a program of being a clone, and dropping it there, without any evidence. It boggles the mind.

It's presumptuous and arrogant to believe that Vas must answer to us just because we want a show. In my opinion he is showing wisdom and restraint by just moving on - which is what you and I need to do.

It is "presumptuous and arrogant" to believe that someone should behave ethically? There's a twisted concept...

You know what?

This statement of yours reminded me a short tale called: "The Emperor's New Clothes", by Hans Christian Andersen, about two weavers-crooks who promise an Emperor a new suit of clothes invisible to those who are incompetent or not enough inteligent.

I really hope you are not a programmer-crook, and that what you said was a simple accident, a LAPSUS LINGUAE, because stupidity it was not, for sure.

I think in this case you are being unreasonable again.