wrong draw claim or right?

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Will Singleton
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:14 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

wrong draw claim or right?

Post by Will Singleton » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:10 pm

[Event "ICC 30 2"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2007.09.18"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Amateur"]
[Black "NowX"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ICCResult "Game drawn by repetition"]
[WhiteElo "2615"]
[BlackElo "2542"]
[Opening "Queen's Indian: Nimzovich variation (exaggerated fianchetto)"]
[ECO "E15"]
[NIC "QI.05"]
[Time "23:45:07"]
[TimeControl "1800+2"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Ba6 5. b3 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Be7 7. Bg2 c6 8.
Bc3 d5 9. Ne5 Nfd7 10. Nxd7 Nxd7 11. Nd2 O-O 12. O-O Rc8 13. e4 c5 14. exd5
exd5 15. dxc5 dxc4 16. c6 cxb3 17. Re1 b2 18. Bxb2 Nc5 19. Ba3 Re8 20. Rc1
Bf8 21. Rxe8 Qxe8 22. Nc4 Rxc6 23. Bxc6 Qxc6 24. Na5 Qf6 25. Bxc5 bxc5 26.
Qb3 Qd4 27. a3 Qd2 28. Qc3 Qd5 29. a4 Qe4 30. Qe3 Qd5 31. Qe8 g6 32. Qc6 Qg5
33. Nb3 c4 34. Qxa6 cxb3 35. Rf1 Qc5 36. Qb7 Qc2 37. Qxa7 h6 38. a5 b2 39.
Qb7 Kg7 40. Kg2 Bc5 41. a6 Bd4 42. Kf3 Qf5+ 43. Kg2 Qc2 44. h3 h5 45. h4 Be3
46. Qd5 Ba7 47. Qe5+ Kg8 48. Qe8+ Kg7 49. Qe5+ Kg8 50. Qb5 Kg7 51. Qb7 Bd4
52. Qd5 Ba7 53. Qb7 Bd4 54. Kh3 Qe2 55. Rb1 Qxf2 56. Qe4 Kg8 57. Qd3 Bg7 58.
Rd1 Kh7 59. Rf1 Qb6 60. Kg2 Qc6+ 61. Kh2 Qb6 62. Kg2 Qc6+ 63. Kg1 Qc5+ 64.
Kg2 Qc6+ {Game drawn by repetition} 1/2-1/2

bob
Posts: 20555
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Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: wrong draw claim or right?

Post by bob » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:15 pm

Will Singleton wrote:[Event "ICC 30 2"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2007.09.18"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Amateur"]
[Black "NowX"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ICCResult "Game drawn by repetition"]
[WhiteElo "2615"]
[BlackElo "2542"]
[Opening "Queen's Indian: Nimzovich variation (exaggerated fianchetto)"]
[ECO "E15"]
[NIC "QI.05"]
[Time "23:45:07"]
[TimeControl "1800+2"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Ba6 5. b3 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Be7 7. Bg2 c6 8.
Bc3 d5 9. Ne5 Nfd7 10. Nxd7 Nxd7 11. Nd2 O-O 12. O-O Rc8 13. e4 c5 14. exd5
exd5 15. dxc5 dxc4 16. c6 cxb3 17. Re1 b2 18. Bxb2 Nc5 19. Ba3 Re8 20. Rc1
Bf8 21. Rxe8 Qxe8 22. Nc4 Rxc6 23. Bxc6 Qxc6 24. Na5 Qf6 25. Bxc5 bxc5 26.
Qb3 Qd4 27. a3 Qd2 28. Qc3 Qd5 29. a4 Qe4 30. Qe3 Qd5 31. Qe8 g6 32. Qc6 Qg5
33. Nb3 c4 34. Qxa6 cxb3 35. Rf1 Qc5 36. Qb7 Qc2 37. Qxa7 h6 38. a5 b2 39.
Qb7 Kg7 40. Kg2 Bc5 41. a6 Bd4 42. Kf3 Qf5+ 43. Kg2 Qc2 44. h3 h5 45. h4 Be3
46. Qd5 Ba7 47. Qe5+ Kg8 48. Qe8+ Kg7 49. Qe5+ Kg8 50. Qb5 Kg7 51. Qb7 Bd4
52. Qd5 Ba7 53. Qb7 Bd4 54. Kh3 Qe2 55. Rb1 Qxf2 56. Qe4 Kg8 57. Qd3 Bg7 58.
Rd1 Kh7 59. Rf1 Qb6 60. Kg2 Qc6+ 61. Kh2 Qb6 62. Kg2 Qc6+ 63. Kg1 Qc5+ 64.
Kg2 Qc6+ {Game drawn by repetition} 1/2-1/2
A quck look says this is right. At move 60, black plays Qc6+ with the white king on g2, then at move 62, we have the same position again, and at move 64 the same position a third time.

wgarvin
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Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: wrong draw claim or right?

Post by wgarvin » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:23 pm

I'm no expert on draws, but I think its legitimate.

The same position with Black queen on c6 and white king on g2 is produced three times, by Black's 60th, 62nd and 64th moves. I don't think it matters what occurred between. There is no enpassant rights there that would make the positions different.

Will Singleton
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:14 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

how about this one?

Post by Will Singleton » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:24 pm

[Event "ICC 5 1"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2009.12.03"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Amateur"]
[Black "ArasanX"]
[Result "*"]
[ICCResult "Game adjourned when White disconnected"]
[WhiteElo "2591"]
[BlackElo "2652"]
[Opening "QGD semi-Slav: Meran, Wade variation"]
[ECO "D47"]
[NIC "SL.09"]
[Time "01:03:26"]
[TimeControl "300+1"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c6 4. e3 Nf6 5. Nf3 Nbd7 6. Bd3 dxc4 7. Bxc4 b5 8.
Bd3 Bb7 9. O-O a6 10. e4 c5 11. d5 c4 12. Bc2 Qc7 13. dxe6 fxe6 14. Nd4 Nc5
15. Be3 e5 16. Nf5 Ncxe4 17. Nxe4 Nxe4 18. Qg4 Nf6 19. Qg5 O-O-O 20. Rad1
Bd5 21. a4 b4 22. Bb1 c3 23. bxc3 bxc3 24. Bc2 Rd7 25. Nh4 e4 26. Bd4 Bd6
27. g3 Bc5 28. Bxf6 gxf6 29. Qxf6 Rf8 30. Qxa6+ Bb7 31. Qe6 Qc6 32. Qxd7+
Qxd7 33. Rxd7 Kxd7 34. Ng2 Bc6 35. Ne3 Bxe3 36. fxe3 Rxf1+ 37. Kxf1 Kd6 38.
g4 Ke5 39. Ke1 Bd7 40. g5 Kf5 41. a5 Bc6 42. a6 Kxg5 43. Bd1 Kh4 44. Be2 Kh3
45. Kd1 Kg2 46. Bg4 Kf2 47. Bc8 Bb5 48. Bb7 Bxa6 49. Bxa6 Kxe3 50. Bb7 Kd3
51. Bc6 c2+ 52. Kc1 e3 53. Bb5+ Kc3 54. h4 Kb3 55. Bd3 Kc3 56. Be2 h6 57.
Bb5 Kb3 58. Bd3 Kc3 59. Bb5 Kb3 60. Bd3 Kc3 61. Be2 Kb3 62. Bf3 Kc3 63. Be2
Kb3 64. h5 Kc3 65. Bb5 Kb4 66. Bd3 Kc3 67. Ba6 Kb3 68. Bd3 Kc3 69. Ba6 Kb3
70. Be2 Kc3 71. Bb5 Kb3 72. Bf1 Kc3 73. Be2 Kb3 *

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michiguel
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Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Re: wrong draw claim or right?

Post by michiguel » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:45 pm

wgarvin wrote:I'm no expert on draws, but I think its legitimate.

The same position with Black queen on c6 and white king on g2 is produced three times, by Black's 60th, 62nd and 64th moves. I don't think it matters what occurred between. There is no enpassant rights there that would make the positions different.
Exactly, this is a perfect claim. After Qc6+, three positions are photographically and dynamically identical.

Miguel

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Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4159
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: how about this one?

Post by Eelco de Groot » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:25 pm

Will Singleton wrote:[Event "ICC 5 1"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2009.12.03"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Amateur"]
[Black "ArasanX"]
[Result "*"]
[ICCResult "Game adjourned when White disconnected"]
[WhiteElo "2591"]
[BlackElo "2652"]
[Opening "QGD semi-Slav: Meran, Wade variation"]
[ECO "D47"]
[NIC "SL.09"]
[Time "01:03:26"]
[TimeControl "300+1"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c6 4. e3 Nf6 5. Nf3 Nbd7 6. Bd3 dxc4 7. Bxc4 b5 8.
Bd3 Bb7 9. O-O a6 10. e4 c5 11. d5 c4 12. Bc2 Qc7 13. dxe6 fxe6 14. Nd4 Nc5
15. Be3 e5 16. Nf5 Ncxe4 17. Nxe4 Nxe4 18. Qg4 Nf6 19. Qg5 O-O-O 20. Rad1
Bd5 21. a4 b4 22. Bb1 c3 23. bxc3 bxc3 24. Bc2 Rd7 25. Nh4 e4 26. Bd4 Bd6
27. g3 Bc5 28. Bxf6 gxf6 29. Qxf6 Rf8 30. Qxa6+ Bb7 31. Qe6 Qc6 32. Qxd7+
Qxd7 33. Rxd7 Kxd7 34. Ng2 Bc6 35. Ne3 Bxe3 36. fxe3 Rxf1+ 37. Kxf1 Kd6 38.
g4 Ke5 39. Ke1 Bd7 40. g5 Kf5 41. a5 Bc6 42. a6 Kxg5 43. Bd1 Kh4 44. Be2 Kh3
45. Kd1 Kg2 46. Bg4 Kf2 47. Bc8 Bb5 48. Bb7 Bxa6 49. Bxa6 Kxe3 50. Bb7 Kd3
51. Bc6 c2+ 52. Kc1 e3 53. Bb5+ Kc3 54. h4 Kb3 55. Bd3 Kc3 56. Be2 h6 57.
Bb5 Kb3 58. Bd3 Kc3 59. Bb5 Kb3 60. Bd3 Kc3 61. Be2 Kb3 62. Bf3 Kc3 63. Be2
Kb3 64. h5 Kc3 65. Bb5 Kb4 66. Bd3 Kc3 67. Ba6 Kb3
{[d]8/8/B6p/7P/8/1k2p3/2p5/2K5 w - -}
68. Bd3 Kc3 69. Ba6 Kb3
{[d]8/8/B6p/7P/8/1k2p3/2p5/2K5 w - -}
70. Be2 Kc3 71. Bb5 Kb3
{[d]8/8/7p/1B5P/8/1k2p3/2p5/2K5 w - -}
72. Bf1 Kc3 73. Be2 Kb3
{[d]8/8/7p/7P/8/1k2p3/2p1B3/2K5 w - -} *
As far as I can see here Amateur had three diferent positions where it had the move, Black King on b3 with the White bishop on a different square each time, and only the first position had been repeated once. See the diagrams. If I remember correctly, in the past you had to have the move to claim a draw before executing it and you had to be able to achieve the same position for a third time. I believe the exact rules have changed and now you must first make the move before making the claim? Please look this up in the FIDE regulations, for the drawclaim in computerchess this is maybe not yet changed? Precise rule aside, the final position had only been achieved once after the last pawn move 64. h5. So Amateur could not claim a draw here. I don't know if the disconnect was after a not recognized draw claim?

Regards,
Eelco
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

bob
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Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: how about this one?

Post by bob » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:08 am

The idea is that the same three positions must occur with the same side to move. If the same position has occurred 3 times before you move, and it is your move, you can claim a draw without making a move at all. If you can make a move that will cause the same position to occur a 3rd time with the same side on move (your opponent in this case will be on move) then you can claim the repetition as well. But the key is the same position, which means the same set of possible moves by the side on move, with the same side on move.

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Eelco de Groot
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Location: Groningen

Re: how about this one?

Post by Eelco de Groot » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:56 am

bob wrote:The idea is that the same three positions must occur with the same side to move. If the same position has occurred 3 times before you move, and it is your move, you can claim a draw without making a move at all. If you can make a move that will cause the same position to occur a 3rd time with the same side on move (your opponent in this case will be on move) then you can claim the repetition as well. But the key is the same position, which means the same set of possible moves by the side on move, with the same side on move.
Yes, that would be logical, thanks Robert! Executing the move before the claim and certainly pressing the clock would mean you lose the right to claim a draw. Also in computer chess. I was confused probably with another rule-change but I'm not sure which, I will have to re-read the Arbiter's Notebook columns by Geurt Gijssen.

From Geurt Gijssen's column http://www.chesscafe.com/text/geurt120.pdf
I reproduce the relevant FIDE articles 9.2 and 9.5.

By the way I also was not aware that it is not allowed anymore to write down your move before making it on the board. This is now interpreted as taking notes :? I'm glad that I have not yet lost any game this way, it was completely new to me. I was always taught to sit on your hands first after writing down a move, and think a second time...


Article 9.2:
The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the
move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not
necessarily by a repetition of moves)
a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet
and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.
Article 9.3:
The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the
move, if
a. he writes his move on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter
his intention to make this move which shall result in the last 50
moves having been made by each player without the movement of
any pawn and without any capture, or
b. the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player
without the movement of any pawn and without any capture.



Article 9.5:
If a player claims a draw as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, he shall
immediately stop both clocks. He is not allowed to withdraw his
claim.
a. If the claim is found to be correct the game is immediately drawn.
b. If the claim is found to be incorrect, the arbiter shall add three
minutes to the opponent’s remaining time. Additionally, if the
claimant has more than two minutes on his clock the arbiter shall
deduct half of the claimant’s remaining time up to a maximum of
three minutes. If the claimant has more than one minute, but less
than two minutes, his remaining time shall be one minute. If the
claimant has less than one minute, the arbiter shall make no
adjustment to the claimant’s clock. Then the game shall continue
and the intended move must be made.


Eelco

Will Singleton
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:14 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: how about this one?

Post by Will Singleton » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:19 am

The point of the exercise was that the final position had been on the board twice before, but that the side-to-move was different in the final position from the previous ones. So it wasn't a draw.

I had thought my rep code was wrong, but it turns out there's an issue with pondering that causes an illegal move claim, which is why amateur failed to move. It only happens extremely rarely, but shouldn't happen again.

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