How many "official" Toga projects there is now?

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Jouni
Posts: 2009
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:15 pm

How many "official" Toga projects there is now?

Post by Jouni » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:56 am

I find situation really confusing. We need overview of all developments
under way. I remember to read 2007, that Thomas Gaksch is stopped to
work with Toga, but that's was happily preliminary info. But who has written Cluster Toga and 3.1.2 SE? Is Fruit under development also?
Are programmers working in co-operation?

thanks Jouni

Ryan Benitez
Posts: 716
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:21 am
Location: Portland Oregon

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Post by Ryan Benitez » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:38 am

I have no idea about any of th Toga stuff but I can say that Fruit is still developed and is now a bitboard engine with a rewritten eval that is much different than the old eval.

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Marek Soszynski
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Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 5:28 pm
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Post by Marek Soszynski » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:56 am

Ryan,

On the Fruit website http://www.fruitchess.com/ it says "The development on Fruit by Fabien Letouzey has ceded and it is unlikely to continue." So could you please explain a bit more what you mean by "Fruit is still developed." Thanks.
Marek Soszynski

Thomas Gaksch

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Post by Thomas Gaksch » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:24 am

Congratulations Ryan,
this redesign was the right step to be sucessfull for the next years. That was really a lot of work for you. but a great decision to do it.
Now in practise Fruit isn´t anymore Fruit 2.1 and in my opinion Fruit is now your own baby. Why didn´t you rename it?


Thomas

Andrej Sidorov

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Post by Andrej Sidorov » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:37 am

Ryan Benitez wrote:I have no idea about any of th Toga stuff but I can say that Fruit is still developed and is now a bitboard engine with a rewritten eval that is much different than the old eval.
Don't you mean Rybka?

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Rolf
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Location: Munster, Nuremberg, Princeton

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Post by Rolf » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:45 am

Thomas Gaksch wrote:Congratulations Ryan,
this redesign was the right step to be sucessfull for the next years. That was really a lot of work for you. but a great decision to do it.
Now in practise Fruit isn´t anymore Fruit 2.1 and in my opinion Fruit is now your own baby. Why didn´t you rename it?


Thomas
How could a redesign and some changes in the evaluation mean a genuine ownership resp. creativity? If Ryan would lend me the actual code and would stop here, would I then be the owner in three years? Imagine Ryan would even declare that I am now the right owner, am I therefore the creative force behind the project? Although I havnt created anything at all, perhaps except calling it Wilfried?
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

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slobo
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Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Post by slobo » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:17 am

Jouni wrote:I find situation really confusing. We need overview of all developments
under way. I remember to read 2007, that Thomas Gaksch is stopped to
work with Toga, but that's was happily preliminary info. But who has written Cluster Toga and 3.1.2 SE? Is Fruit under development also?
Are programmers working in co-operation?

thanks Jouni
Dann Corbit said:

Cluster Toga by Kai Himstedt
Toga II
Gambit Fruit

Plus a plethora of illegitimate clones.
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."

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Rolf
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Location: Munster, Nuremberg, Princeton

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Post by Rolf » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:23 am

slobo wrote:
Jouni wrote:I find situation really confusing. We need overview of all developments
under way. I remember to read 2007, that Thomas Gaksch is stopped to
work with Toga, but that's was happily preliminary info. But who has written Cluster Toga and 3.1.2 SE? Is Fruit under development also?
Are programmers working in co-operation?

thanks Jouni
Dann Corbit said:

Cluster Toga by Kai Himstedt
Toga II
Gambit Fruit

Plus a plethora of illegitimate clones.

I wished to have a map with the many clones so that proximity to one another is to be seen. x for names and y for height of technical translations of something originally known... 950€!
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

Thomas Gaksch

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Post by Thomas Gaksch » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:59 pm

what i mean is that changing the engines data structure to bitboard and to rewrite the eval so that it is much different to fruit is nearly the same effort as to write a complete new engine and that also means that there is not much more in common with the original fruit.
but i think you have not the technical background to understand that.

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Rolf
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Location: Munster, Nuremberg, Princeton

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Post by Rolf » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:34 pm

Thomas Gaksch wrote:what i mean is that changing the engines data structure to bitboard and to rewrite the eval so that it is much different to fruit is nearly the same effort as to write a complete new engine and that also means that there is not much more in common with the original fruit.
but i think you have not the technical background to understand that.
The latter is correct but what do you think what this means? Let me ask the main question this way. What new ideas from a chesscomputer standpoint are authentic then if all the ideas of someone else are taken and then translated and transformed? Or, please help me out, is everyrthing in computerchess programming ALWAYS only about transforminf or translating or tuning here and there, technically spoken? Are there never new IDEAS? Because these, if ever appearing, are already "stolen" minutes afterwards because everybody is always and continually compiling the codes of all serious competitors? I mean, you are perhaps a good address to explain this for a lay, since you are also only rarely in the daily work?

The answer to my first question is that also if you are absolutely not in the details of a field, you can well judge certain appearences from the outside. Else there could never be an interdisciplinary communication.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

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