Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

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chrisw
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Re: Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

Post by chrisw »

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:06 pm
mclane wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:29 pm The quality of the games is higher.
But the quality of Lc0 has nothing to do with the search, and everything to do with the fact that its evaluation function is a massive neural network. Smaller neural networks result in worse performance in Leela and lower quality games, while bigger neural networks result in better performance and higher quality games.

Lc0 still creates a huge search tree every time it moves, and it is well known that monte carlo tree search results in tactical blind spots for the engine, so it is in some regards an inferior search algorithm to alpha-beta. But it could handle large neural networks better than alpha-beta could.
Sorry, but this reads like it was written by a news reporter sent in to discover some key bits of language, some blanket generalisations masquerading as truth and then generate some blanket assertions. Sounds good but no cigar. Or not even wrong as they say. Where to begin?

This is nonsense:
“The quality of Lc0 has nothing to do with the search“
So what? Exactly the opposite is shown by NNUE.
“Smaller neural networks result in worse performance in Leela and lower quality games, while bigger neural networks result in better performance and higher quality games.”
Facile. “Well known” is no argument. Conclusion, although hedged, doubly so even, by being hedged, is meaningless. Both AB and MCTS have “blind spots”, differing reasons and differing blind spots.
“it is well known that monte carlo tree search results in tactical blind spots for the engine, so it is in some regards an inferior search algorithm to alpha-beta”
WTF are you talking about here?
“But it could handle large neural networks better than alpha-beta could“
syzygy
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Re: Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

Post by syzygy »

mclane wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:43 am What I miss are alternative ideas how to program chess.
And you do you think your continual whining about that here is going to give someone a bright new idea?
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towforce
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Re: Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

Post by towforce »

syzygy wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:39 pm
mclane wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:43 am What I miss are alternative ideas how to program chess.
And you do you think your continual whining about that here is going to give someone a bright new idea?

It's possible that if enough people here express a preference for engines that play fun/exciting chess over engines that play unbeatable chess that someone might focus on producing that.
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Re: Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

Post by mclane »

syzygy wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:39 pm
mclane wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:43 am What I miss are alternative ideas how to program chess.
And you do you think your continual whining about that here is going to give someone a bright new idea?
IMO the people all know that this is not the way to go. Only they are used to it,
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chrisw
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Re: Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

Post by chrisw »

towforce wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:45 pm
syzygy wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:39 pm
mclane wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:43 am What I miss are alternative ideas how to program chess.
And you do you think your continual whining about that here is going to give someone a bright new idea?

It's possible that if enough people here express a preference for engines that play fun/exciting chess over engines that play unbeatable chess that someone might focus on producing that.
Yeah right. Let’s all plan our lives to “give people here what they want”. What most “people here” actually do is wait for someone to actually do something and then tear him to pieces for it, that and/or a mixture of fawning adulation. Cultivating social media friends? Ha-bleeding-ha.
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mclane
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Re: Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

Post by mclane »

There are people who are always open for new ways and interesting things.

We dont need another 1000 stockfish clones.
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Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
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Rebel
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Re: Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

Post by Rebel »

mclane wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:43 am I am looking for engines doing things different then the mass is doing.
Try the (old) Q3 personality in ProDeo.

r5k1/2p1b1p1/6bp/p4P2/q3pP2/2PnB2P/PP1N4/KR3Q1R b - - 0 0 bm Nb4;
r1bk3r/1pp2pp1/p2p1n1p/5q2/8/4BN2/PPPQ1PPP/3RR1K1 w - - 0 0 bm Bb6;
r1bqkb1r/4pppp/p1p5/2ppP3/8/2P2N2/PPP2PPP/R1BQR1K1 w kq - 0 0 bm e6;
r3qrk1/4bppp/4p3/p2pP2Q/1p1B4/1PpPP3/P1P2RPP/5RK1 w - - 0 0 bm Rf6;
r3k2r/4b2p/p1n3pN/1p1q1p2/5B2/3p1P2/PP4PP/2RQR2K w kq - 0 0 bm Rxc6;
r1bk1n1r/pp1n1q1p/2p2p1R/3p4/3PpN2/2NB2Q1/PPP2PP1/2K1R3 w - - 0 0 bm Bxe4;
7r/1k2P2P/4p3/1pp5/8/2pp4/1n3PP1/R4K1R w - - 0 0 bm g4;
8/4kpbn/p1p3p1/Pp2p2p/1P2Pn2/N1P1BP2/5P1P/5BK1 w - - 0 0 bm Nxb5;
r1b1qrk1/ppBnppb1/2n4p/1NN1P1p1/3p4/8/PPP1BPPP/R2Q1R1K w - - bm Ne6;
2rr2k1/1bq2ppp/4pn2/p7/Pp1PP2Q/1B2RN2/5PPP/4R1K1 w - - bm d5;
r4k1r/pp2pp2/3p1b2/q2PnQpp/3N4/1BP3P1/PP3PP1/3RR1K1 w - - bm Rxe5;
r1b2rk1/p2nbqpp/p3p3/2ppPpB1/N2P1N1P/8/PPP2PP1/R2Q1RK1 w - - bm c4;
r1b1kb1r/1p1n1ppp/p2ppn2/6BB/2qNP3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R2Q1RK1 w kq - bm Nxe6;
2r1rbk1/p1Bq1ppp/Ppn1b3/1Npp4/B7/3P2Q1/1PP2PPP/R4RK1 w - - bm Nxa7;
1br1r1k1/1b1q1pp1/p1p2n1p/1p2n3/1P6/PNN1P3/2QBBPPP/4RRK1 b - - bm c5;
r2q1rk1/pp2p1bp/2n1Ppp1/2pn4/3pNP2/6P1/PPPPQ2P/RNB2RK1 b - - bm d3;
r3rbk1/1bq2pp1/p1np1n1p/1p3P2/4P3/P1N1BBN1/1PPQ4/2KR3R w - - bm Rxh6;
2rr2k1/pp1qnppp/2n1p3/3p4/1bPP3P/1P2RNP1/PB3P2/1BRQ2K1 w - - bm Bxh7+;
rn1r2k1/1bqpbppp/pp2pn2/6N1/2P5/1PN1P3/PBQ1BPPP/3R1RK1 w - - bm Nd5;
r1b1rk2/2qp1pp1/2p2n1p/p3pP2/1bB1P3/2N3R1/PPPBQ1PP/R6K w - - bm Qe3;
6k1/rnqb3p/5ppQ/2pPp3/p1N1P3/2PB3P/5PP1/1R4K1 w - - bm f4;
2kr3r/ppp1qpp1/2p5/2b2b1p/2P1pPn1/1P2P1PP/PBQPB3/RN2K2R b KQ - bm h4;
2r2rk1/5qp1/1pN2p1p/pPnRp3/P1P5/5PP1/2Q1R1KP/8 w - - bm Rxc5;

Solutions within seconds.

Compare with the default setting.

Strength loss 150-200 elo.

Is that what you want?
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OliverBr
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Re: Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

Post by OliverBr »

mclane wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:20 am There are people who are always open for new ways and interesting things.

We dont need another 1000 stockfish clones.
OliThink is no stockfish clone. There are others, too.
Chess Engine OliThink: http://brausch.org/home/chess
OliThink GitHub:https://github.com/olithink
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mclane
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Re: Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

Post by mclane »

Sure.
I am sure there are many others too.

But what do they want ?
Beeing number 1 one day ?
Trying out things ?

Computerchess is science, art, fun, everything.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
syzygy
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Re: Which of the many chess engines in this forum use b strategy ?

Post by syzygy »

mclane wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:20 am There are people who are always open for new ways and interesting things.

We dont need another 1000 stockfish clones.
But you have absolutely no business criticising people who are actually creating something whereas you are just... not creating something.