Giving up the center

[Henk]

Stockfish 11 shows that ed4: is best for black? I remember M. Euwe wrote in his book "Praktische Schaaklessen: deel 2" that center formation d4 e4 d6 e5 better for black than e4 d6. So ed4: would be the last move to play. Looks like you still can't trust engines nowadays.

[d] rnbqkb1r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/4p3/3PP3/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R b KQkq - 3 4

[Werewolf]

Your conclusion is way too simplistic.

"Max says don't play pawn takes pawn, therefore Stockfish is wrong" ?
Stockfish would score 99% against Euwe.

I'm not saying ed is good or bad, but you need more testing than this: what score is the opening getting in tournaments? What depth did SF reach in analysis? And so on.

[Henk]

Depth above 30. Maybe ed: is playable for engines but not for humans. Very difficult to equalize after ed:
It is common knowledge that giving up center is bad. Ok Stockfish would win from Euwe but that is because of better tactics.
I am using Stockfish for preparation but if it suggests moves that are only playable for super tactical engines it still is worthless for me.

Anything wrong with Nd7 or maybe Nc6.

[zullil]

Depth above 30. Maybe ed: is playable for engines but not for humans. Very difficult to equalize after ed:
It is common knowledge that giving up center is bad. Ok Stockfish would win from Euwe but that is because of better tactics.
I am using Stockfish for preparation but if it suggests moves that are only playable for super tactical engines it still is worthless for me.

Anything wrong with Nd7 or maybe Nc6.

Lc0 (network 384x30-swa-3350000):

info depth 14 seldepth 39 time 286575 nodes 4617155 score cp -33 wdl 234 307 459 nps 16248 tbhits 0 pv b8d7 f1c4 f8e7 a2a4 e5d4 d1d4 d7c5 e1g1 e8g8 h2h3 c8e6 a4a5 c7c6 f1d1 e6c4 d4c4 b7b5 a5b6 a7b6 c1e3 b6b5 c4b4 a8a1 d1a1 f8e8 e4e5 f6d7 e5d6 e7d6

[Henk]

Nc6 bad move too because you can't play de de. So only alternative or only move Nd7.

[BrendanJNorman]

Nc6 bad move too because you can't play de de. So only alternative or only move Nd7.

Nbd7 is standard Philidor's Defense, Improved Hanham Variation.

Analyzing such early and ridiculously broad variations with an engine is a waste of time.

Get to the tabiya first and then analyze.

[Karol Majewski]

I have a question to a similar position:

[d]r1bqkb1r/ppp2ppp/2np1n2/8/3NP3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - 0 6

This can happen out of Philidor or Scotch, so that's very common position on an amateur level. So what's White's best way to continue? I guess many good moves here. Leela favours Bb5, while Stockfish switches between Bf4, Be2, Nxc6. Can someone with a strong CPU run Stockfish for a long time in this position?

[BrendanJNorman]

Nc6 bad move too because you can't play de de.

Also de is fine for black, white should play the space-gaining d5. After de equalizes quickly.

[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "18"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. dxe5 Nxe5 6. Nxe5 dxe5 7. Qxd8+ Kxd8
8. Bg5 c6 9. O-O-O+ Kc7 *[/pgn]

Petrosian was already playing with the structure as black in the 40s.

[pgn][Event "Tbilisi"]
[Site "Tbilisi"]
[Date "1945.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Agamalian"]
[Black "Petrosian, Tigran V"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A53"]
[PlyCount "68"]
[EventDate "1945.??.??"]
[EventType "game"]
[EventCountry "URS"]
[SourceTitle "EXT 1999"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1998.11.16"]
[SourceVersion "1"]
[SourceVersionDate "1998.11.16"]
[SourceQuality "1"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 e5 4. dxe5 dxe5 5. Qxd8+ Kxd8 6. Bg5 c6 7. O-O-O+ Kc7
8. Nf3 Nbd7 9. a3 Ng4 10. Bh4 f6 11. h3 Nh6 12. g4 Nf7 13. Bg3 a5 14. Nd4 Nc5
15. e3 Nd6 16. Nc2 Nde4 17. Nxe4 Nxe4 18. Bh4 g5 19. Bg3 h5 20. gxh5 Nxg3 21.
fxg3 Rxh5 22. Bg2 Be6 23. Bf1 a4 24. Rd2 Bc5 25. Rf2 f5 26. Rg1 Rah8 27. Kd2 f4
28. g4 Rxh3 29. Bxh3 Rxh3 30. Kd3 Bxe3 31. Nxe3 Rxe3+ 32. Kd2 Bxc4 33. Re1 Rxe1
34. Kxe1 e4 0-1[/pgn]

This is why it is important to know the classics instead of blindly following the engine.

[Henk]

It is different when pawn on c4 because you can't play Bc4. Stockfish suggests you have to play Be6 after Bc4 instead of Bg5.
But I don't like Be6 fe6. And you are stuck with an isolated double pawn.

[pgn]
[Event "Edited game"]
[Date "2020.05.02"]
[Round "-"]
[White "-"]
[Black "-"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 e5 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. dxe5 dxe5 6. Qxd8+ Kxd8 7. Bc4
Be6 8. Bxe6 fxe6
*
[/pgn]

[MonteCarlo]

A few points on the original post:

1) Even if we were blindly trusting that SF's first choice at some arbitrary depth was "the truth", the evals for exd4 and Nbd7 are very close at most depths, certainly not different enough to think SF clearly prefers one over the other. Which it prefers could easily change at a future iteration.

2) Unassisted engine analysis from a position so early in the game is unlikely to distinguish all that well between similar options, i.e., we shouldn't blindly trust them.

3) exd4 Nxd4 transposes to the old main line of the Philidor, played thousands of times over the last ~180 years by humans. It's not some crazy engine line no human could manage to play.

4) Some rule of thumb articulated by a master of yore shouldn't be blindly trusted either.

Especially for human play, you're better off choosing between those moves based on which one leads to positions you enjoy playing the most, as you'll be more likely to put time into understanding the position.

For human play, you're much better off playing something you enjoy and will stick with long enough to understand well, even if all engines think it's 15 cp worse than some alternative, and even if it violates a rule of thumb articulated by some strong human player.

Cheers!