1.g4 opening is losing?

[jp]

They might be OK for predicting a move at low depth, but if your opponent is using a big net and multiple GPU's I don't think it would be of much use. You definitely can't use it to play engine matches with. I tried that and one couldn't mate the other in a KQK endgame!

Leela still can't do that? Which nets were these?

[Ovyron]

I guess you need Leela more than I.

Probably not. But if we ever end playing a game, I'd like to see you aim for a position where high depth Leela can maneuver while Stockfish cannot, so I'd lose because Stockfish is useless and my Leela can't see beyond her nose. I'd love to see the kind of moves I'd miss.

[Zenmastur]

They might be OK for predicting a move at low depth, but if your opponent is using a big net and multiple GPU's I don't think it would be of much use. You definitely can't use it to play engine matches with. I tried that and one couldn't mate the other in a KQK endgame!

Leela still can't do that? Which nets were these?

I used these:
caab04e9ae8b7f09bed1b1d608eb2510880890442a7ee2545dac58c7be8f1450
Badgyal 128X10
128x10-2771

These are all 128x10 nets. caab04 seemed the best. I tried a bunch of different sizes, all the way up to 512x40-312.PB

[Zenmastur]

I guess you need Leela more than I.

Probably not. But if we ever end playing a game, I'd like to see you aim for a position where high depth Leela can maneuver while Stockfish cannot, so I'd lose because Stockfish is useless and my Leela can't see beyond her nose. I'd love to see the kind of moves I'd miss.

You know you may have trouble upgrading to a newer video card because of the age of your motherboard. You might have a PCIe version 2 MB which is only half as fast as PCIe Ver.3.

[Ovyron]

Yeah, so I'd just add a new motherboard.

[Uri Blass]

I think it also takes a long time to find the shortest mate for 40.Bf4

I think that assisted analysis is basically slower than unassisted analysis.

Do you mean just for that position or generally?

verified all the short mates by chest.

Is Chest still effectively limited to mates in about 13 or shorter?


1)I think generally assisted analysis is not productive in most cases.
In the past assisted analysis could be more useful because engines search most of the time garbage lines but stockfish became too smart.

2)Chest effectively limited to short mates because it practically needs a lot of time to solve long mates.
In some simple positions it can prove that a mate is the shortest mate for more moves than 13 but in most cases it takes too much time.

I guess with a lot of hash and good hardware chest can prove after some hours the following is mate in exactly 14 moves and it is relatively simple position.
8/2Bk2p1/8/4R3/3p4/8/PPP5/2K1b3 w - - 3 49

[zullil]

A lot of pages in this thread. Please tell me what was the conclusion, 1. g4 loses?

There is no conclusion, so what you want is the current summary:

One correspondence game on this bulletin board has been lost by White.
Another game is ongoing, but everyone predicts White will lose.

And that's about it.

Just for fun, I've started a game between Stockfish-dev (with Contempt = 0) and Stockfish-dev (with default Contempt = 24). The starting position has Black to move after 1. g4 d5 2. g5. Each side has 20 threads, 32 GB hash and 6-man Syzygy tables. Pondering is disabled. The time control is game-in-12-hours for each side.

Here's where things are now. Probably very few updates before the game is concluded.

1. g4 book d5 book
2. g5 book e5 +1.30/46 2484s
3. d4 -1.21/47 1834s exd4 +1.40/44 217s

Well, 1. g4 was certainly losing here.

[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2020.03.05"]
[Round "?"]
[White "StockfishW"]
[Black "StockfishB"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Opening "Grob's attack"]
[PlyCount "184"]
[TimeControl "43200"]

1. g4 {book} d5 {book} 2. g5 {book} e5 {+1.30/46 2484s} 3. d4 {-1.21/47 1834s}
exd4 {+1.40/44 217s} 4. Qxd4 {-1.30/46 865s} Nc6 {+1.56/42 375s}
5. Qa4 {-1.30/44 499s} Bd7 {+1.65/43 326s} 6. Bg2 {-1.28/48 997s}
Bc5 {+1.83/45 350s} 7. Bxd5 {-1.56/48 633s} Nd4 {+1.74/48 499s}
8. Qc4 {-1.53/50 487s} Qe7 {+1.68/49 519s} 9. a4 {-1.53/48 413s}
Bf5 {+1.65/52 1286s} 10. Na3 {-1.44/49 347s} O-O-O {+1.68/49 304s}
11. Be3 {-1.49/53 557s} Be4 {+1.83/50 370s} 12. Bxe4 {-1.61/53 598s}
Qxe4 {+1.80/50 399s} 13. Nf3 {-1.49/52 450s} Nxf3+ {+1.85/50 374s}
14. exf3 {-1.61/55 849s} Qxf3 {+1.89/53 667s} 15. O-O {-1.50/50 337s}
Rd5 {+1.92/55 711s} 16. Qf4 {-1.58/51 337s} Qxf4 {+1.92/50 352s}
17. Bxf4 {-1.55/55 766s} Ne7 {+1.82/50 463s} 18. Kh1 {-1.65/54 904s}
a6 {+1.80/50 480s} 19. Be3 {-1.65/53 563s} Ng6 {+1.94/51 516s}
20. Nc4 {-1.61/53 757s} Re8 {+1.91/53 469s} 21. Rae1 {-1.90/55 2310s}
Re6 {+1.82/52 387s} 22. Rg1 {-1.91/54 357s} Bxe3 {+1.92/53 401s}
23. Nxe3 {-1.69/50 1223s} Rd2 {+2.04/53 1406s} 24. Ref1 {-1.93/53 798s}
Re4 {+2.11/58 743s} 25. b3 {-1.99/52 410s} Nf8 {+2.12/53 497s}
26. h3 {-1.96/54 373s} Ne6 {+2.26/54 1218s} 27. Rg4 {-2.02/60 2232s}
Rxg4 {+2.36/54 513s} 28. hxg4 {-2.09/55 481s} b6 {+2.30/58 1123s}
29. Kg2 {-2.21/52 525s} Nxg5 {+2.38/54 699s} 30. Kg3 {-2.07/59 3124s}
Ne6 {+3.09/46 596s} 31. Rc1 {-2.34/54 940s} Nd4 {+3.30/47 522s}
32. Kg2 {-3.22/53 1612s} Kb7 {+3.65/47 635s} 33. Kf1 {-2.25/52 276s}
c5 {+3.85/47 687s} 34. Ke1 {-3.79/46 843s} Nf3+ {+3.91/44 387s}
35. Kf1 {-1.71/1 0.001s} b5 {+4.00/47 518s} 36. axb5 {-3.88/45 794s}
axb5 {+4.22/46 501s} 37. b4 {-4.38/46 1248s} cxb4 {+4.37/47 393s}
38. Rb1 {-4.52/44 399s} Rxc2 {+4.48/47 431s} 39. Rxb4 {-5.07/47 2503s}
Rc5 {+4.48/46 366s} 40. Ke2 {-5.13/41 467s} Ng5 {+4.64/44 365s}
41. Rb1 {-4.02/41 355s} Ne6 {+4.71/46 363s} 42. Kd3 {-4.75/44 688s}
h6 {+4.86/46 378s} 43. Kd2 {-5.08/47 659s} Kb6 {+5.16/47 981s}
44. Kd3 {-5.20/47 541s} Kc6 {+5.23/44 422s} 45. Nf5 {-5.22/47 293s}
Rd5+ {+5.58/47 929s} 46. Ke3 {-5.09/48 221s} Kc5 {+6.08/39 238s}
47. Ke4 {-7.22/54 1872s} Rd2 {+6.47/41 354s} 48. Rc1+ {-7.35/44 380s}
Kb4 {+6.99/40 386s} 49. Rb1+ {-7.35/45 217s} Ka4 {+7.40/42 406s}
50. Ke3 {-7.35/42 163s} Rc2 {+7.71/42 576s} 51. Kd3 {-7.85/42 508s}
Rxf2 {+8.10/43 540s} 52. Ra1+ {-7.91/39 84s} Kb4 {+8.25/45 515s}
53. Rb1+ {-8.07/41 507s} Kc5 {+8.38/47 302s} 54. Rc1+ {-8.31/38 126s}
Kb6 {+8.51/51 260s} 55. Ke3 {-8.46/39 103s} Rg2 {+8.64/46 306s}
56. Kf3 {-8.46/39 69s} Ra2 {+8.77/42 219s} 57. Rc8 {-8.87/44 549s}
Rd2 {+9.30/44 388s} 58. Rb8+ {-8.92/41 60s} Kc5 {+9.36/46 210s}
59. Rc8+ {-9.27/43 127s} Kb4 {+9.62/45 298s} 60. Ke3 {-9.91/40 336s}
Rd7 {+9.77/38 396s} 61. Ng3 {-10.15/38 216s} Rc7 {+10.05/37 226s}
62. Rb8 {-8.64/31 25s} Rc3+ {+10.44/37 230s} 63. Kf2 {-9.81/36 216s}
Rc4 {+10.93/35 398s} 64. Ke3 {-10.74/40 435s} Rxg4 {+11.59/35 232s}
65. Nf1 {-10.69/34 115s} h5 {+12.52/33 185s} 66. Kd2 {-12.03/36 254s}
h4 {+14.44/34 189s} 67. Ne3 {-12.71/35 106s} Rd4+ {+16.00/31 167s}
68. Ke2 {-12.82/33 92s} Ka4 {+18.48/32 225s} 69. Rh8 {-16.74/29 135s}
b4 {+21.88/33 217s} 70. Nf5 {-17.86/29 46s} Re4+ {+31.20/32 164s}
71. Kd2 {-24.54/30 72s} Kb3 {+63.69/41 153s} 72. Nxh4 {-8.68/33 50s}
Rd4+ {+M57/59 774s} 73. Ke3 {-148.89/37 17s} Rd8 {+M53/63 145s}
74. Rh5 {-148.93/38 9.2s} Kc3 {+M47/63 169s} 75. Nf3 {-148.96/41 12s}
b3 {+M45/70 136s} 76. Kf2 {-148.99/45 11s} b2 {+M39/77 136s}
77. Rb5 {-M98/50 27s} Nd4 {+M33/81 133s} 78. Rxb2 {-M36/53 34s}
Kxb2 {+M31/84 139s} 79. Ng5 {-M32/66 11s} Rd5 {+M27/89 155s}
80. Nh3 {-M28/67 13s} Rf5+ {+M25/93 137s} 81. Ke3 {-M24/71 9.3s}
Rf3+ {+M23/95 129s} 82. Kxd4 {-M22/76 5.7s} Rxh3 {+M21/77 119s}
83. Ke5 {-M20/63 5.6s} Rd3 {+M19/72 122s} 84. Kf4 {-M18/89 5.4s}
Kc3 {+M17/122 112s} 85. Ke4 {-M16/112 5.9s} Kc4 {+M15/227 110s}
86. Kf5 {-M14/149 5.3s} Kd5 {+M13/245 6.8s} 87. Kf4 {-M12/245 1.8s}
Kd4 {+M11/245 1.6s} 88. Kg5 {-M10/245 0.30s} Ke4 {+M9/245 0.20s}
89. Kg4 {-M8/245 0.011s} Rb3 {+M7/245 0.015s} 90. Kh5 {-M6/245 0.010s}
Kf5 {+M5/245 0.014s} 91. Kh4 {-M4/1 0s} g5+ {+M3/245 0.010s} 92. Kh5 {-M2/1 0s}
Rh3# {+M1/245 0.009s, Black mates} 0-1
[/pgn]

[Dann Corbit]

re: "Is Chest still effectively limited to mates in about 13 or shorter?"

The answer is yes and no.
For absolute proofs, 13 is pretty well the limit for chest319

But ChestUCI has special parameters for much deeper mates. I have found mates of more than 60 plies with ChestUCI. However, you lose the "proof of minimal mate" in the special ChestUCI mates. So it finds a sure mate, but there could be a shorter one.

[Zenmastur]

A summary may makes things clearer.

Initial position:

[d]2b3k1/r2r2p1/p1N1q3/1B6/3p4/2b1B2R/PPP5/2K4R w - - 0 36
Three black main moves:

Variation 1:
+M27 36.Rh8+ Kf7 37.Rf1+ Qf5 38.Rxf5+ Kg6 39.Rg5+ Kf6 40.Bf4 axb5 41.Nxa7 Rxa7 42.Rf8+ Rf7 43.Rxc8 Be1 44.Rc6+ Ke7 45.Rc7+ Kf6 46.Rxb5 Rxc7 47.Bxc7 Ke6 48.Re5+ Kd7 49.Rxe1 Kxc7 50.a4 g5 51.Kd2 Kc6 52.Kd3 g4 53.Kxd4 g3 54.Ke5 Kd7 55.Rg1 Kc6 56.Rxg3 Kb6 57.Kd6 Kb7 58.Rg7+ Kc8 59.b3 Kb8 60.Kc6 Ka8 61.Kb6 Kb8 62.Rg8+

Variation 2:
+M26 36.Rh8+ Kf7 37.Rf1+ Qf5 38.Rxf5+ Ke6 39.Re5+ Kd6 40.Bf4 axb5 41.Nxa7 Rxa7 42.Rxc8 Ba5 43.a4 Rf7 44.Rf5+ Kd7 45.Rc7+ Bxc7 46.Rxf7+ Ke6 47.Rxc7 bxa4 48.Rxg7 Kf5 49.Bg3 Ke6 50.Ra7 d3 51.cxd3 a3 52.bxa3 Kf6 53.d4 Kg6 54.d5 Kf5 55.d6 Kg4 56.d7 Kxg3 57.d8Q Kf4 58.Re7 Kf5 59.Qf8+ Kg4 60.Rg7+ Kh5 61.Qh8+

Variation 3:
+M24 36.Rh8+ Kf7 37.Rf1+ Qf6 38.Bc4+ Rd5 39.Bxd5+ Be6 40.Bxe6+ Kxe6 41.Rxf6+ gxf6 42.Nxa7 Be1 43.Bxd4 Kf5 44.Kd1 Bb4 45.Rh6 Ke4 46.Rxf6 Ba5 47.Bb6 Ke5 48.Bxa5 Kxf6 49.c4 Ke6 50.c5 Kf7 51.c6 Kg6 52.c7 Kf5 53.c8Q+ Kf4 54.Kd2 Kg5 55.Qe6 Kh4 56.Qg6 Kh3 57.Ke3 Kh2 58.Kf2 Kh3 59.Qg3+

My claim: the initial position is checkmate in 27 moves at least.
I think I can prove it for any black best defensive moves.

Andreas

Sorry, I didn't get much work done on your lines today. I guess I should post something so here is the first un resolved issue I have with your first solution, the 38. ... Kg6 line:

Code: Select all

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2020.03.05"]
[Round "?"]
[White "FastGM solution 2"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[EventDate "2020.03.05"]
[FEN "2b3k1/r2r2p1/p1N1q3/1B6/3p4/2b1B2R/PPP5/2K4R w - - 0 36"]

36.Rh8+ Kf7
37.Rf1+ Qf5 
38.Rxf5+ Kg6 
39.Rg5+ Kf6 
40.Bf4 axb5 
( [Stockfish 250220 64 POPCNT] 97:M23 40...Bxb2+ 41.Kxb2 Rab7 42.Rf8+ 42.Rf7 43.Rxf7+ 43.Rxf7 44.Bd3 Rb7+ 45.Kc1 Rb5 46.Bxb5 axb5 47.Rxb5 d3 48.Bg5+ Kf7 49.Rb6 Kg6 50.Ne7+ Kxg5 51.Nxc8 Kf5 52.Ne7+ Ke4 53.Rg6 Kf3 54.cxd3 Ke3 55.a4 Kxd3 56.a5 Kc4 57.a6 Kc5 58.a7 Kc4 59.Kc2 Kb4 60.a8=Q Kc5 61.Qd5+ Kb4 62.Rg4+ Ka3 63.Qb3# )

... snip ... snip...

Working from the bottom up,when I got to move 40. I found the move 40. ... Bxb2+. I let it run for several hours with no luck.
Regards,

Zenmastur

[fastgm]

Sorry, I didn't get much work done on your lines today. I guess I should post something so here is the first un resolved issue I have with your first solution, the 38. ... Kg6 line:

Code: Select all

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2020.03.05"]
[Round "?"]
[White "FastGM solution 2"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[EventDate "2020.03.05"]
[FEN "2b3k1/r2r2p1/p1N1q3/1B6/3p4/2b1B2R/PPP5/2K4R w - - 0 36"]

36.Rh8+ Kf7
37.Rf1+ Qf5 
38.Rxf5+ Kg6 
39.Rg5+ Kf6 
40.Bf4 axb5 
( [Stockfish 250220 64 POPCNT] 97:M23 40...Bxb2+ 41.Kxb2 Rab7 42.Rf8+ Rf7 43.Rxf7+ Rxf7 44.Bd3 Rb7+ 45.Kc1 Rb5 46.Bxb5 axb5 47.Rxb5 d3 48.Bg5+ Kf7 49.Rb6 Kg6 50.Ne7+ Kxg5 51.Nxc8 Kf5 52.Ne7+ Ke4 53.Rg6 Kf3 54.cxd3 Ke3 55.a4 Kxd3 56.a5 Kc4 57.a6 Kc5 58.a7 Kc4 59.Kc2 Kb4 60.a8=Q Kc5 61.Qd5+ Kb4 62.Rg4+ Ka3 63.Qb3# )

... snip ... snip...

Working from the bottom up,when I got to move 40. I found the move 40. ... Bxb2+. I let it run for several hours with no luck.
Regards,

Zenmastur

Up to move 47. Stockfish finds the moves that lead to the fastest checkmate:

36.Rh8+ Kf7 37.Rf1+ Qf5 38.Rxf5+ Kg6 39.Rg5+ Kf6 40.Bf4 Bxb2+ 41.Kxb2 Rab7 42.Rf8+ Rf7 43.Rxf7+ Rxf7 44.Bd3 Rb7+ 45.Kc1 Rb5 46.Bxb5 axb5 47.Rxb5 d3 but now not 48.Bg5+ but

[d]2b5/6p1/2N2k2/1R6/5B2/3p4/P1P5/2K5 w - - 0 48
48.a4 Bh3 49.a5 Bf1 50.Rb6 d2+ 51.Kxd2 g5 52.a6 Bxa6 53.Nd4+ Ke7 54.Bxg5+ Kd7 55.Rxa6 Kc7 56.Ra7+ Kb6 57.Rg7 Kc5 58.Kd3 Kd5 59.Rg6 Ke5 60.Kc4 Ke4 61.Re6+

After 48.a4 mate in 13 moves:

[d]2b5/6p1/2N2k2/1R6/P4B2/3p4/2P5/2K5 b - a3 0 48

Code: Select all

-M13	48. ... Bg4 49.a5 Be2 50.Rb6 d2+ 51.Kxd2 Bf1 52.a6 Bxa6 53.Rxa6 g5 54.Nd4+ Ke7 55.Bxg5+ Kd7 56.Ra7+ Kc8 57.Rg7 Kb8 58.Bf4+ Ka8 59.Rc7 Kb8 60.Nc6+ Ka8 61.Ra7+
-M13	48. ... Ke6 49.a5 Ba6 50.Rb6 g5 51.Bxg5 Bc4 52.cxd3 Bxd3 53.Nb4+ Kf5 54.Nxd3 Ke4 55.a6 Kxd3 56.a7 Ke4 57.a8Q+ Kf5 58.Rb5+ Kg4 59.Qg2+ Kh5 60.Bd2+ Kh4 61.Be1+
-M13	48. ... d2+ 49.Kxd2 Kf7 50.a5 Ke6 51.Rb6 g5 52.Na7+ Kf5 53.Nxc8 gxf4 54.a6 f3 55.Ke1 f2+ 56.Kxf2 Ke5 57.a7 Kd5 58.a8Q+ Ke5 59.Qa5+ Kd4 60.Rb5 Ke4 61.Qa4+
-M13	48. ... Be6 49.cxd3 Bg4 50.a5 Bc8 51.Rb6 g5 52.Nd4+ Kg7 53.a6 Bxa6 54.Be5+ Kf8 55.Rxa6 Kf7 56.Rb6 Kg8 57.Rb7 g4 58.Ne6 g3 59.Rg7+ Kh8 60.Rg6+ Kh7 61.Nf8+
-M13	48. ... Ba6 49.Rb6 Bc4 50.cxd3 Kf5 51.dxc4 Kxf4 52.a5 g5 53.a6 g4 54.a7 g3 55.a8Q g2 56.Qg8 g1Q+ 57.Qxg1 Kf5 58.Rb7 Kf6 59.Qg7+ Kf5 60.Rf7+ Ke6 61.Rf6+
-M13	48. ... Kf7 49.cxd3 Ke6 50.a5 g5 51.Bxg5 Kf7 52.Ne7 Ba6 53.Rb6 Bxd3 54.Rd6 Be4 55.Nc6 Bxc6 56.Rxc6 Kg7 57.a6 Kh7 58.a7 Kg7 59.a8Q Kf7 60.Qb7+ Ke8 61.Rc8+
-M13	48. ... Bh3 49.a5 Bc8 50.Bg5+ Kf7 51.cxd3 Ba6 52.Rb6 Kg6 53.Rxa6 Kxg5 54.Rb6 Kf6 55.a6 Ke6 56.a7 Kf5 57.a8Q Kf4 58.Nd4 Kg5 59.Qg2+ Kh5 60.Rg6 Kh4 61.Qg4+
-M13	48. ... Bd7 49.a5 Bc8 50.Bg5+ Kf7 51.cxd3 Ba6 52.Rb6 Kg6 53.Rxa6 Kxg5 54.Rb6 Kf6 55.a6 Ke6 56.a7 Kf5 57.a8Q Kf4 58.Nd4 Kg5 59.Qg2+ Kh5 60.Rg6 Kh4 61.Qg4+
-M13	48. ... g6 49.Bg5+ Ke6 50.a5 Bd7 51.Rb6 d2+ 52.Kxd2 Kf5 53.a6 Kg4 54.a7 Kxg5 55.Ne5 Bc6 56.Rxc6 Kf4 57.a8Q Kxe5 58.Qa4 Kf5 59.Qd4 Kg5 60.Rc5+ Kh6 61.Qh8+
-M13	48. ... g5 49.Bxg5+ Ke6 50.a5 Kf7 51.Rb6 d2+ 52.Kxd2 Kg6 53.Ne7+ Kxg5 54.Nxc8 Kg4 55.Rg6+ Kf4 56.Ne7 Ke5 57.a6 Ke4 58.a7 Kf4 59.a8Q Ke5 60.Qd5+ Kf4 61.Qf5+

Andreas