Komodo 13.3 released

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Joerg Oster
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Re: Komodo 13.3 released

Post by Joerg Oster » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:26 pm

mjlef wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:10 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:54 pm
Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:47 am
At the very beginning he thanks for the reply. I would like to ask you to change the attempt at issuing free versions for people. Please make available to everyone to the version apart from last paid for people - and in order not to take money from it. So that he isn't amateurish pieces of work from your side.
I think their business model is trying to maximize profits (if they made any other version free it'd hurt their sales), since the next version of Komodo that would need to become free has important features (such as one that would make it the strongest free chess engine available when using MultiPV) they might want to delay the point it becomes free as much as possible, for those people that are willing to pay money for them, but wouldn't if the free version already has those features.
There is not very much money in computer chess. A lot of the money goes into buying more machines to test with (or renting them). If a customer thinks a version is amateurish, they will not buy. We try to do the best work we can, but they can be the judges.

As Larry said we normally make a version a few year older free when we release a new major version number. Many thousands of people seem to like them. I think we will do the same later this year.

Mark
And this is very much appreciated!
Jörg Oster

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Ovyron
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Re: Komodo 13.3 released

Post by Ovyron » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:11 pm

mjlef wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:10 pm
There is not very much money in computer chess.
But enough to keep Komodo commercial :wink:

Anyway, I also appreciate that old versions become free eventually, I'm looking forward to check what MCTS is about once K12 goes free.

Alayan
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Re: Komodo 13.3 released

Post by Alayan » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:57 pm

I have no issue with Komodo authors making money from their work by providing an useful product, even if it doesn't have as much raw elo as Stockfish.

The one thing I don't like is that the engine being commercial incentivizes not sharing their good ideas while nonetheless taking some good ideas from elsewhere. It also incentivizes not giving credit for the good ideas they found in other engines.

I checked the release announcements at talkchess of Komodo since version 12: not once was credit given for some idea from Stockfish. It's obvious that in that timespan some of Komodo's elo gainers came from a Stockfish idea. Meanwhile authors of most free engines don't mind giving credit where credit is due.

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MikeB
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Re: Komodo 13.3 released

Post by MikeB » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:36 pm

Alayan wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:57 pm
I have no issue with Komodo authors making money from their work by providing an useful product, even if it doesn't have as much raw elo as Stockfish.

The one thing I don't like is that the engine being commercial incentivizes not sharing their good ideas while nonetheless taking some good ideas from elsewhere. It also incentivizes not giving credit for the good ideas they found in other engines.

I checked the release announcements at talkchess of Komodo since version 12: not once was credit given for some idea from Stockfish. It's obvious that in that timespan some of Komodo's elo gainers came from a Stockfish idea. Meanwhile authors of most free engines don't mind giving credit where credit is due.
I think that is true with many young authors today, but the majority of the old school authors would perhaps discuss ideas - but they would never look at code from another engines. I seriously doubt that Mark looks at SF code at all period. My opinion , and you made a point insinuating that Komodo authors have taken ideas from SF and I believe that idea is 100% completely false. I agree with your suggestion IF they WERE to do that , they should acknowledge it as such - but for you to suggest they have is totally out of bounds and requires you to know something which you have no way of knowing. One should not indulge in gossip.

James 14:11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
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Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: Komodo 13.3 released

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:43 pm

Alayan wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:57 pm
I have no issue with Komodo authors making money from their work by providing an useful product, even if it doesn't have as much raw elo as Stockfish.

The one thing I don't like is that the engine being commercial incentivizes not sharing their good ideas while nonetheless taking some good ideas from elsewhere. It also incentivizes not giving credit for the good ideas they found in other engines.

I checked the release announcements at talkchess of Komodo since version 12: not once was credit given for some idea from Stockfish. It's obvious that in that timespan some of Komodo's elo gainers came from a Stockfish idea. Meanwhile authors of most free engines don't mind giving credit where credit is due.
I don't have anything against it except a few important things:

after 1 - if a new version of the program comes out, then developers should provide for free the latest version that is not paid
after 2 - if I buy an engine I should have all updates for free, instead of paying $ 100 every year - here a greed and a vindictiveness are appearing to money

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Ovyron
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Re: Komodo 13.3 released

Post by Ovyron » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:59 pm

MikeB wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:36 pm
I seriously doubt that Mark looks at SF code at all period.
I clearly remember mjlef mentioning that he tried SF ideas in Komodo and that they didn't work. How did he do that without looking at SF's code?

Dann Corbit
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Re: Komodo 13.3 released

Post by Dann Corbit » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:12 pm

Most of the work on Stockfish is in evaluation.
It is Larry who designs the Komodo evaluation.
I think right now they are focusing on the monte carlo stuff.
I think that Mark and Larry are both really nice guys.

I also think that there is nothing wrong with understanding what another program does and writing your own implementation of it.

The Komodo eval is clearly different in my view. Look at the queen sacrifices in TCEC by Komodo. Nobody else does that.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

lkaufman
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Re: Komodo 13.3 released

Post by lkaufman » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:47 pm

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:43 pm
Alayan wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:57 pm
I have no issue with Komodo authors making money from their work by providing an useful product, even if it doesn't have as much raw elo as Stockfish.

The one thing I don't like is that the engine being commercial incentivizes not sharing their good ideas while nonetheless taking some good ideas from elsewhere. It also incentivizes not giving credit for the good ideas they found in other engines.

I checked the release announcements at talkchess of Komodo since version 12: not once was credit given for some idea from Stockfish. It's obvious that in that timespan some of Komodo's elo gainers came from a Stockfish idea. Meanwhile authors of most free engines don't mind giving credit where credit is due.
I don't have anything against it except a few important things:

after 1 - if a new version of the program comes out, then developers should provide for free the latest version that is not paid
after 2 - if I buy an engine I should have all updates for free, instead of paying $ 100 every year - here a greed and a vindictiveness are appearing to money
We always offer for free the version below the one we have on sale, currently Komodo 11 is on sale very cheap, so Komodo 10 is free.
Suppose we said all updates are free for purchasers, but the price is $100. Then we said if you don't want the updates we would give 40% discount. That would of course be exactly the same as what we are doing now, but perhaps it would look less "greedy"? If we only sold Komodo with a year's updates, the price would probably be in the middle, let's say $80, but I think that on average our customers would be less happy and we would make less money. It's better not to charge people for something they don't want to buy.
Komodo rules!

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MikeB
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Re: Komodo 13.3 released

Post by MikeB » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:49 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:59 pm
MikeB wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:36 pm
I seriously doubt that Mark looks at SF code at all period.
I clearly remember mjlef mentioning that he tried SF ideas in Komodo and that they didn't work. How did he do that without looking at SF's code?
Even if what you posted above is correct , you still do not know. According to you , he tried "ideas" - that does not mean he looked at code. If you want to find out , ask Mark, but do not make stuff up because your logic is faulty. That falls under the category of "fake news" when you make up stuff or your conjecture is flawed.
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BrendanJNorman
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Re: Komodo 13.3 released

Post by BrendanJNorman » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:57 pm

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:43 pm
if I buy an engine I should have all updates for free, instead of paying $ 100 every year - here a greed and a vindictiveness are appearing to money
Would you suggest the same business advice for Apple with regard to iPhone releases?

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