The day when imagination and will was stronger than artificial intelligence. Man against chess machine. November 2019

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BrendanJNorman
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Re: The day when imagination and will was stronger than artificial intelligence. Man against chess machine. November 201

Post by BrendanJNorman » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:52 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 pm
Ah, this one wasn't beating just the lag or GUI bugs, so I'm impressed. Good job Father :)
Tim Ferriss once talked about how he became the first foreigner to win the Chinese Kickboxing Championships...

To do so, he noticed a loophole in the rules, and that is this:

"If a fighter steps out of the ring (outside a certain circle drawn on the floor), he is disqualified"

So all Ferriss did, was dance around to avoid hits, and then pounce and literally push his opponents out of the ring.

According to the rules, his opponents lose by disqualification.

Funny to win in such a dishonorable way, but winning is everything, right? :roll:

This brings to our attention my point:

Just like Ferriss, Father is playing AGAINST the game, not playing the game itself.

He is exploiting a loophole.

So even if what we see on the board (or in the ring) looks aesthetically disgusting...it gets the job done.

And Father has a special talent for what he does, it really isn't that easy to set up those blocked positions against a tactical monster.

Not my cup of tea though...

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Ovyron
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Re: The day when imagination and will was stronger than artificial intelligence. Man against chess machine. November 201

Post by Ovyron » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:34 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:52 pm
And Father has a special talent for what he does, it really isn't that easy to set up those blocked positions against a tactical monster.
Right, that's why it's an achievement. I don't like it when it's about GUI bugs (it has been demonstrated that wins on time wouldn't have happened in GUIs that inform the engine correctly about the time they have left) or lag (this is a problem of the person that runs the engine, who should set the "Move Overhead" of the engine to something higher than the lag, so the engine won't lose on time.)

But a 2 second increment shows that Father is able to equalize the engine's level, and that the +3.00 eval advantage shown by engines in such scenarios is nonsense, because Father could draw them from those positions every single time. So where did the 2000 elo advantage go to?

EroSennin
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Re: The day when imagination and will was stronger than artificial intelligence. Man against chess machine. November 201

Post by EroSennin » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:41 am

tmokonen wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:09 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:20 am
I still don't see increment and I'm still not impressed.
I still don't see any wins or draws against lc0. Shuffling doesn't seem to work so well against NN engines on good hardware.
As a side note I managed to draw Leela 2x RTX 2080 in 3+2 time control as white very easily in 30 moves. Berlin and all the pieces were exchanged until repetition happened.

tmokonen
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Re: The day when imagination and will was stronger than artificial intelligence. Man against chess machine. November 201

Post by tmokonen » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:39 pm

EroSennin wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:41 am
tmokonen wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:09 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:20 am
I still don't see increment and I'm still not impressed.
I still don't see any wins or draws against lc0. Shuffling doesn't seem to work so well against NN engines on good hardware.
As a side note I managed to draw Leela 2x RTX 2080 in 3+2 time control as white very easily in 30 moves. Berlin and all the pieces were exchanged until repetition happened.
Nicely done. I actually think what Father is able to do against Stockfish is impressive. He just uses a different technique than you do, to exploit a particular weakness of Stockfish (not being able to see fortresses until it's too late). lc0 is a totally different beast, which is much less prone to fall into an unwanted fortress, and I have my doubts that the lock 'em up and shuffle, anti alpha-beta technique will work. lc0 has its own weaknesses (endgame play, occasional tactical blunders), and you used almost the opposite strategy of Father to earn your draw. You have to adapt to your opponent.

Father
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My first experience against Fat Fritz November 12 2019. Man versus Machine

Post by Father » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:36 pm

A simple letter with respect,

My Parents to whom I owe my life and my existence taught me to be grateful.

If there is something that produces pain, it is the lack of thanks to those who owe them thanks. The example of autonomy is the parable of the cured lepers of whom only one again thanked God. For this reason I want to thank today and here, to chessbase for allowing me to play against chess computers in the machine room, and I thank all those who have allowed me to play against their softwares and hardwares.

Today my gratitude is again to the legendary Hydra and its super hardware and to Fat Fritz and its intelligent support team; I also thank Komodo, Hiarcs, and all of you with your creations. For me, losing is the path of victory, getting a step towards health, dying, the door to eternity, and playing against computers and receiving a beating, an incentive to stop me and hit them in the jaw.

My battle against chess computers is not over, my elastic, and recursive intelligence, and volunteers are full of surprises, I am a stubborn donkey who wants to reach the top of the mountain. Thanks to Erdo for inviting me to try Fat Fritz. My first game was going very well. I received four nockouts I felt fighting against Tisson but that does not scare me, it gives me courage to be a better warrior and to understand and decipher the unsolvable mysteries of the psychology of chess computers.

Sincerely,

Pablo Ignacio Restrepo
Father and Grand-Father playchess.com user









I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.

Father
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Zeus versus Father Novembre 2019

Post by Father » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:35 pm

Zeus 0.0 64 M (5 threads): 28.9 plies; 6.783kN/s Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU X 980 @ 3.33GHz 3331MHz, (1 cores, 12 threads) New Elo: 2008 (+15), Classic.

I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.

todd
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Re: The day when imagination and will was stronger than artificial intelligence. Man against chess machine. November 201

Post by todd » Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:59 am

tmokonen wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:39 pm
lc0 is a totally different beast, which is much less prone to fall into an unwanted fortress, and I have my doubts that the lock 'em up and shuffle, anti alpha-beta technique will work. lc0 has its own weaknesses (endgame play, occasional tactical blunders), and you used almost the opposite strategy of Father to earn your draw. You have to adapt to your opponent.
Leela without an opening book is also

1) Very deterministic and rarely deviates from playing the same lines over and over (making prep and finding improvements between games very easy)

2) With black, plays extremely solid lines that are almost impossible for a strong white opponent to crack. While that is reasonable when the opponent is Stockfish or another Leela, the downside is that there are almost no winning chances for black in many of these lines unless white makes a serious blunder. Even humans have a decent chance to draw with white in some of these lines (like the Re1 Berlin, for instance).

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Ovyron
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Re: My first experience against Fat Fritz November 12 2019. Man versus Machine

Post by Ovyron » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:59 am

Father wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:36 pm








Thanks for playing these games, this is what I expected to see.

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Re: My first experience against Fat Fritz November 12 2019. Man versus Machine

Post by Father » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:22 am

Ovyron wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:59 am
Father wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:36 pm








Thanks for playing these games, this is what I expected to see.
Not prob. I don't know how long I will still have the strength to play against the chess computers; It has been a long experience and struggle. notes that the lag has nothing to do with these examples against Fat Fritz; Here I am facing is a against a way of thinking on the part of the computer very different from the way traditional of the chess programs that I have faced. it is still too early to know what the final result will be between my battle against computers and the final result; but beyond all, written writing is.
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.

Father
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Zeus in long way of 224 steps...

Post by Father » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:06 pm

Classic. Zeus 0.0 64 M (5 threads): 30.9 plies; 7.581kN/s Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU X 980 @ 3.33GHz 3331MHz, (1 cores, 12 threads)

I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.

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