"Tactics is what you do when there is something to do. Strategy is what you do when there is nothing to do."
BTW, the NN engines do not prove that tactics is not important. They prove they can avoid it against conventional engines. But the conventional engineswere never tuned to seek tactical complexity, and it is very questionable whether the NN engines could still avoid the tactics when a tactically strong opponent seeks it.
Tactics cannot be very important for chess
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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
That is an interesting point
One of the complaints of the test I performed is that more than half of the positions are composed tactical problems
But if a human can compose a tactical problem, then a computer can do that too. Hence incredibly complicated tactical problems could be built by computers. Perhaps some of them are currently out of reach for a computer to build, but within ten years a computer could build tactical problems beyond human comprehension.
On the other hand, I think it is probably possible to train a net for tactical situations, just by feeding these positions to the computer over and over on both offense and defense. Eventually, the computer would learn every possible theme.
One of the complaints of the test I performed is that more than half of the positions are composed tactical problems
But if a human can compose a tactical problem, then a computer can do that too. Hence incredibly complicated tactical problems could be built by computers. Perhaps some of them are currently out of reach for a computer to build, but within ten years a computer could build tactical problems beyond human comprehension.
On the other hand, I think it is probably possible to train a net for tactical situations, just by feeding these positions to the computer over and over on both offense and defense. Eventually, the computer would learn every possible theme.
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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Test progress with the x256 net:
Code: Select all
Analysis of G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd
Analyzing engine: Lc0
10/29/2019 9:25:14 AM Level: 720 Seconds
Source : List of EPD/PGN files
G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd
G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
Colours : White moves=True, Black moves=True
Direction : forward
Games (PGN) : From 1 to 999999
Moves : From 1 to 250
Positions (EPD) : From 1 to 999999
Use Engine(s) : List
Lc0
Use seconds per move : 720 Seconds per move
Analysis Lines : Minimum search depth=2
Activate abort analysis : False
1) Nd5-b4 a3-a4
2) Ba8-h1 Ba8-h1 * 10 Seconds
3) e6xd7 Bf1-a6
4) Rg1-h1 Rg1-h1 * 7 Seconds
5) Nb7-d8 Nb7-d8 * 2 Seconds
6) Qc8-c3 Be6xd5
7) Rf5-f8 g6xh7
8) Bb8xd6 Bb8xd6 * 166 Seconds
9) b2-b3 Nd5-f6
10) b6-b7 b6-b7 * 4 Seconds
11) Be2-c4 Be2-h5
12) Bc3-d2 Bc3-d2 * 4 Seconds
13) Kg7-h8 Ba7-d4
14) Ke6-f5 Ke6-f5 * 0 Seconds
15) b4-b5 b4-b5 * 1 Second
16) Rc2-c5 Qh8-h7
17) Kb3-c3 Nd8-c6
18) Bf6-g7 Kh3-h4
19) Qc1-a3 Qc1xc2
20) Ne5-c4 Ne5-f7
21) Rh4-a4 Rh4-a4 * 0 Seconds
22) Nb3-c1 Nf1-e3
23) Be5-b8 Be5-d4
24) .. Qd1-e1 Qd1-e1 * 6 Seconds
25) Rb1-a1 Rb1-d1
26) Ne1-g2 Ne1xd3
27) Qa1-f6 Nc1-b3
28) f3-f4 Ng7-e6
29) Nh4-g6 Nh4-g6 * 65 Seconds
30) Nd3-c5 Nd3-c5 * 46 Seconds
31) Bb4xa5 Bb4-e1
32) d2-d3 g7-g8B
33) Rc1-c7 Rc1-c7 * 25 Seconds
34) Bb1-a2 Nf5-d4
35) Be3xd2 Kh4-g5
36) g7xh8N g7xh8N * 252 Seconds
37) Nd8-e6 Kd6-d5
38) Rg7-h7 Rg7-g3
39) Bb7-c6, c3-c4 Bb7-c6 * 2 Seconds
40) f5xg6 f5xg6 * 16 Seconds
41) e7-e8Q, e7-e8R e7-e8Q * 30 Seconds
42) Qb6-d4 Qb6-e3
43) Ng8-h6 Ng8-h6 * 58 Seconds
44) a5xb6 a5xb6 * 0 Seconds
45) Re3-c3 Nh4-f5
46) Ne7-d5 Re8-f8
47) Rf6-h6 Rf6-f7
48) Qa2-f7 Qa2-e6
49) Be4-d5 Qe3xg5
50) Bg1-a7 Bg1-a7 * 2 Seconds
51) Bg6-f5 Bg6-f5 * 494 Seconds
52) Rf7-h7 Rf7-h7 * 5 Seconds
53) Bd4xg7 Bd4xg7 * 6 Seconds
54) Bb4-d6 Bb4-c5
55) Ne6-c7 Rh7-h8
56) Rh2-h1 h3-h4
57) Re3-e1 Re3-e5
58) f4-f5 Qa5-c5
59) Bg7xe5 Qh1-c6
60) Bh7-b1 a4-a5
61) Bg4-f5 Bg4-e2
62) Rh3-h2 Ba8xb7
63) Rh3xh6 Rh3xh6 * 1 Second
64) Rg2-a2 Rg2-a2 * 31 Seconds
65) Nh8-f7 Nh8-f7 * 21 Seconds
66) .. h6-h5 Ne3-c4
67) c5-c6 c5-c6 * 0 Seconds
68) Ba7-b6 Nc7xa8
69) Rc8-a8 Rc8-a8 * 1 Second
70) Nc8-e7 Nc8-e7 * 80 Seconds
71) Ka2-a3 Ka2-a3 * 0 Seconds
72) a2-a3 a2-a3 * 148 Seconds
73) Nd6-b5 Nb6xc8
74) Kd5-e6 Qd4-f2
75) Ra6-a7 Ra6-a7 * 685 Seconds
76) Ne2-c1 b6-b7
77) Re8-a8 b3-b4
78) Bd2-e3 b3-b4
79) Bd4-h8 Bd4-g7
80) Ke1-d2 Qe6-c6
81) a7-a8N a7-a8Q
82) Be3-d4 Be3-d4 * 104 Seconds
83) Nb7-d6 Nb7-d6 * 12 Seconds
84) Ne5-g4 Ne5xf7
85) Ne4-d6 Ne8-d6
86) Qg6-c6 Qg6-c6 * 33 Seconds
87) Re1-d1 Bg8xd5
88) Bh4-f6 Bh4-g3
89) b2-b3 b2-b3 * 52 Seconds
90) Nc7-a8 Nc7-a8 * 0 Seconds
91) Kf8-g7 Kf8-g7 * 63 Seconds
92) Nf2-g4 Nf2-g4 * 73 Seconds
93) Ne7-g6 Kc8-b7
94) Kf4-e4 Kf4-e4 * 490 Seconds
95) c2-c3 Nh5-f6
96) Ng3-e4 Ng3-e4 * 63 Seconds
97) a3-a4 a3-a4 * 0 Seconds
98) Bg5-f6 Bg5-f6 * 0 Seconds
99) Qf2-f7 Ne4-g5
100) Bg4-e6 Bg4-e6 * 575 Seconds
44 of 100 matching moves
10/30/2019 5:26:45 AM, Total time: 8:01:31 PM Rated time: 12:12:33 = 43953 Seconds
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analysis of G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
Analyzing engine: Lc0
10/30/2019 5:27:01 AM Level: 720 Seconds
Source : List of EPD/PGN files
G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd
G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
Colours : White moves=True, Black moves=True
Direction : forward
Games (PGN) : From 1 to 999999
Moves : From 1 to 250
Positions (EPD) : From 1 to 999999
Use Engine(s) : List
Lc0
Use seconds per move : 720 Seconds per move
Analysis Lines : Minimum search depth=2
Activate abort analysis : False
1) Nc1-b3 Nc1-b3 * 10 Seconds
2) Ra3-a8 Bb8xc7
3) Ne4-c5 Ne4-g5
4) Kd3-c4 Kd3-e3
5) Nd2-f3 Nd2-f3 * 56 Seconds
6) Kd3-e2 Kd3-e2 * 0 Seconds
7) a5-a6 Ra8xb8
8) Nd5-f4 Nd5-e7
9) Rb7-a7 Rb7-a7 * 0 Seconds
10) b5-b6 b5xa6
11) g7xf8N g7xf8N * 0 Seconds
12) Ra4-a8 Ra4-a8 * 134 Seconds
13) b5xc6 b5xc6 * 1 Second
14) h5-h6 h5-h6 * 5 Seconds
15) b5-b6 b5-b6 * 15 Seconds
16) Bg1-d4 Qg5xf6
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Another important point, I guess that a few LC0 answers will also be new solutions. I did not analyze for that yet
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
I like that: I've added it to my archive!
If one has built a fast-searching engine, one jolly well SHOULD tune it to seek tactical complexity!BTW, the NN engines do not prove that tactics is not important. They prove they can avoid it against conventional engines. But the conventional engineswere never tuned to seek tactical complexity, and it is very questionable whether the NN engines could still avoid the tactics when a tactically strong opponent seeks it.
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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
I don't think so. Or, at least, that experiment has been tried. Tuning a chess engine to solve tactical test sets definitely lowers the strength in game play. At least, that is what has happened when it was tried before.
It is also interesting that Komodo is not a tactical monster, yet it plays about as well as Houdini which is a tactical monster.
But your point is well taken, and it seems that logically it should work. After all, that is about how we play. After we develop, get space, and achieve some strategic aims, then we look for mating plans and tactical victories. Why shouldn't chess engines do the same thing.
I guess that maybe tactical tuning makes engines forget Sierawan's warning: "Don't search for tactical shots before you have completed development."
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Aha, so maybe the problem has been that people tune their engines to be great at tactical tests, and the problem is that they use the tuning the whole game, while what would be better is to start without it and turning it on at an appropriate time. Maybe even gradually.
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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
I would say NNs have the *most* tactical potential due to superior move ordering & eval. The issues present in the most prevalent networks are more the result of search, training method(s), and input parameters (lack thereof) than any inherent deficit in NNs themselves. Just my 2cp anyway.....
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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Not heard of Tartakowerhgm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:20 pm "Tactics is what you do when there is something to do. Strategy is what you do when there is nothing to do."
BTW, the NN engines do not prove that tactics is not important. They prove they can avoid it against conventional engines. But the conventional engineswere never tuned to seek tactical complexity, and it is very questionable whether the NN engines could still avoid the tactics when a tactically strong opponent seeks it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savielly_Tartakower
Tartakower has made some comments about chess, some of which are cynical:
"It's always better to sacrifice your opponent's men."
"An isolated pawn spreads gloom all over the chessboard."
"The blunders are all there on the board, waiting to be made."
"The winner of the game is the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
"The move is there, but you must see it." (Horowitz 1971:137)
"No game was ever won by resigning."
"I never defeated a healthy opponent." (This quotation refers to players who blame an illness, sometimes imaginary, for their loss.)
"Tactics is what you do when there is something to do; strategy is what you do when there is nothing to do."
"Moral victories do not count."
"Chess is a fairy tale of 1001 blunders."
"The great master places a knight on e5; checkmate follows by itself."
"A master can sometimes play badly, a fan never!"
"A match demonstrates less than a tournament. But a tournament demonstrates nothing at all."
"Chess is a struggle against one's own errors."
"Every chessplayer should have a hobby."
"A game of chess has three phases: the opening, where you hope you stand better; the middlegame, where you think you stand better; and the ending, where you know you stand to lose."
"As long as an opening is reputed to be weak it can be played."
"Stalemate is the tragicomedy of chess."
"Erro ergo sum."