Winning after Qf6+!

[jp]

27.h4 is still drawn, but 27...Nd6 (?) (...Nxd4 instead holds) loses, yet not as soon as after 28..Qd8( ?) (better 28...Ne8).

Hi Peter, Are you saying that White wins here?

[d]1r3rk1/5p1R/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 1 6

Stockfish-dev isn't seeing it.

Hang on... After which moves from the starting position is all this (27.h4 etc.)?

[peter]

Hi Louis!

27.h4 is still drawn, but 27...Nd6 (?) (...Nxd4 instead holds) loses, yet not as soon as after 28..Qd8( ?) (better 28...Ne8).

Are you saying that White wins here?

[d]1r3rk1/5p1R/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 1 6

Stockfish-dev isn't seeing it.

Actually I was writing about this one line (taken from Fat- Fritz- output)

22. Qf6+ Bxf6 23.gxf6+ Kg8 24. Ng5 Nxa3 25. Rxh7 Nb5 26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. h4 Nd6

and this one position:

[d]1r3r1k/5pR1/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by asmFishWCP_2019-10-11_popcnt:

28.Th7+ Kg8 29.Lg3 Dd8 30.Tg7+ Kh8 31.Kg2 Se8 32.Txf7 Txf7 33.Sxf7+ Kh7 34.Sxd8 Txd8 35.h5 g5 36.Tf1 Sc7 37.Le1 Tb8 38.f7 a3 39.bxa3 b2 40.Ld2 La4 41.Tb1 Kg7 42.h6+ Kxh6 43.Txb2 Tf8 44.Tb1 Lc2 45.Tf1 Lf5 46.Kg3 Kg6 47.Th1 Kxf7 48.Lxg5 Tg8 49.Lh5+ Kf8 50.Kf4 Sb5 51.Tc1 Sxa3 52.Ta1 Sb5 53.Lf6 Tg6 54.Lxg6 Lxg6 55.Tc1 Ke8 56.Ke3 Kd7 57.Kd2 Sa3 58.Lh4 Lf5 59.Le1 Lb1 60.Ke2 Kc7 61.Ke3 Kc6 62.Lh4 Lg6 63.Tf1
+- (1.96) Tiefe: 40/77 00:02:00 3458MN

But it differs from your position only by the one 28.Rh7+ Kg8 already in the new output, and Bh3 could be played already there as well, so not much difference.

[peter]

and Bh3 could be played already there as well,

Typo: Bg3, not Bh3. Anyhow Bg3 already works from your position onwards as well, even already from 27.h4 Nd6(?) at once.

[zullil]

27.h4 is still drawn, but 27...Nd6 (?) (...Nxd4 instead holds) loses, yet not as soon as after 28..Qd8( ?) (better 28...Ne8).

Hi Peter, Are you saying that White wins here?

[d]1r3rk1/5p1R/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 1 6

Stockfish-dev isn't seeing it.

Hang on... After which moves from the starting position is all this (27.h4 etc.)?

Sorry for the confusion.

1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6

[d]1r3rk1/5p1R/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 1 6

Stockfish-dev doesn't seem to see this as winning for White. Evaluation seems stable at 1.40 or so.

[jp]

22. Qf6+ Bxf6 23.gxf6+ Kg8 24. Ng5 Nxa3 25. Rxh7 Nb5 26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. h4 Nd6
and this one position:

1r3r1k/5pR1/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by asmFishWCP_2019-10-11_popcnt:

28.Th7+ Kg8 29.Lg3 Dd8 30.Tg7+ Kh8 31.Kg2 Se8 32.Txf7 Txf7 33.Sxf7+ Kh7 34.Sxd8 Txd8 35.h5 g5 36.Tf1 Sc7 37.Le1 Tb8 38.f7 a3 39.bxa3 b2 40.Ld2 La4 41.Tb1 Kg7 42.h6+ Kxh6 43.Txb2 Tf8 44.Tb1 Lc2 45.Tf1 Lf5 46.Kg3 Kg6 47.Th1 Kxf7 48.Lxg5 Tg8 49.Lh5+ Kf8 50.Kf4 Sb5 51.Tc1 Sxa3 52.Ta1 Sb5 53.Lf6 Tg6 54.Lxg6 Lxg6 55.Tc1 Ke8 56.Ke3 Kd7 57.Kd2 Sa3 58.Lh4 Lf5 59.Le1 Lb1 60.Ke2 Kc7 61.Ke3 Kc6 62.Lh4 Lg6 63.Tf1
+- (1.96) Tiefe: 40/77 00:02:00 3458MN

But it differs from your position only by the one 28.Rh7+ Kg8 already in the new output, and Bh3 could be played already there as well, so not much difference.

1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6

1r3rk1/5p1R/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 1 6

Stockfish-dev doesn't seem to see this as winning for White. Evaluation seems stable at 1.40 or so.

I also recall in some of the positions with Ng5 & Rxh7 that may be the same or similar, old SF with PV=2 was thinking that White had to give perpetual check on g7 or h7 or else Black would put a R on b7 guarding f7, and then move the R on f8, and then the Black K could escape and Black would win.

So I'd like to see how that sort of thing is avoided by White in these lines.

[MikeGL]

Hi Louis!

27.h4 is still drawn, but 27...Nd6 (?) (...Nxd4 instead holds) loses, yet not as soon as after 28..Qd8( ?) (better 28...Ne8).

Are you saying that White wins here?

[d]1r3rk1/5p1R/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 1 6

Stockfish-dev isn't seeing it.

Actually I was writing about this one line (taken from Fat- Fritz- output)

22. Qf6+ Bxf6 23.gxf6+ Kg8 24. Ng5 Nxa3 25. Rxh7 Nb5 26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. h4 Nd6

and this one position:

[d]1r3r1k/5pR1/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by asmFishWCP_2019-10-11_popcnt:

28.Th7+ Kg8 29.Lg3 Dd8 30.Tg7+ Kh8 31.Kg2 Se8 32.Txf7 Txf7 33.Sxf7+ Kh7 34.Sxd8 Txd8 35.h5 g5 36.Tf1 Sc7 37.Le1 Tb8 38.f7 a3 39.bxa3 b2 40.Ld2 La4 41.Tb1 Kg7 42.h6+ Kxh6 43.Txb2 Tf8 44.Tb1 Lc2 45.Tf1 Lf5 46.Kg3 Kg6 47.Th1 Kxf7 48.Lxg5 Tg8 49.Lh5+ Kf8 50.Kf4 Sb5 51.Tc1 Sxa3 52.Ta1 Sb5 53.Lf6 Tg6 54.Lxg6 Lxg6 55.Tc1 Ke8 56.Ke3 Kd7 57.Kd2 Sa3 58.Lh4 Lf5 59.Le1 Lb1 60.Ke2 Kc7 61.Ke3 Kc6 62.Lh4 Lg6 63.Tf1
+- (1.96) Tiefe: 40/77 00:02:00 3458MN

But it differs from your position only by the one 28.Rh7+ Kg8 already in the new output, and Bh3 could be played already there as well, so not much difference.

Thanks peter,
Does this mean Ng5 line instead of Bd2 also wins?

[pgn] [Event "Computer chess game"] [Site "talkchess"] [Date "2019.10.13"] [Round "?"] [White "SF"] [Black "Stockfish"] [Result "*"] [BlackElo "2000"] [WhiteElo "2400"] [TimeControl "300+5"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "1r3r1k/5pR1/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 1"] [Termination "unterminated"] [PlyCount "71"] [WhiteType "human"] [BlackType "program"] 1. Rh7+ Kg8 2. Bg3 Qd8 3. Rg7+ Kh8 4. Kg2 Ne8 5. Rxf7 Rxf7 6. Nxf7+ Kh7 7. Nxd8 Rxd8 8. h5 g5 9. Rf1 Nc7 10. Be1 Rb8 11. f7 a3 12. bxa3 b2 13. Bd2 Ba4 14. Rb1 Kg7 15. h6+ Kxh6 16. Rxb2 Rf8 17. Rb1 Bc2 18. Rf1 Bf5 19. Kg3 Kg6 20. Rh1 Kxf7 21. Bxg5 Rg8 22. Bh5+ Kf8 23. Kf4 Nb5 24. Rc1 Nxa3 25. Ra1 Nb5 26. Bf6 Rg6 27. Bxg6 Bxg6 28. Rc1 Ke8 29. Ke3 Kd7 30. Kd2 Na3 31. Bh4 Bf5 32. Be1 Bb1 33. Ke2 Kc7 34. Ke3 Kc6 35. Bh4 Bg6 36. Rf1 {+- (1.96) Tiefe: 40/77 00:02:00 3458MN} [/pgn]

Endgame at the end of this line looks winning for white.

[peter]

Does this mean Ng5 line instead of Bd2 also wins?

No, that was after a blunder of Black again,

22. Qf6+ Bxf6 23. gxf6+ Kg8 24. Ng5 (?) Nxa3 25. Rxh7 Nb5 26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. h4 Nd6 ?

It was just an output- line of Fat Fritz.

viewtopic.php?p=815375#p815375

...
BTW Fat Fritz at 2xRTX2080 4 threads and 2G hash sticked to 24.Ng5(?) still after 10 minutes, stopped it then.

1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by Fat Fritz v1.22.2:

22.Df6+ Lxf6 23.gxf6+ Kg8 24.Sg5 h5 25.Lxh5 Sxa3 26.Lf2 Tb7 27.Lf3 Sb5 28.Th7 Sd6 29.Tg7+ Kh8 30.Th7+ Kg8 31.Tg1 Se8 32.Tg4 Dd8 33.Tf4 a3 34.Le3 axb2 35.Tfh4 Dxf6 36.exf6 b1D+
+- (2.04) Tiefe: 17/40 00:00:07 204kN
...
22.Df6+ Lxf6 23.gxf6+ Kg8 24.Sg5 Sxa3 25.Txh7 Sb5 26.Tg7+ Kh8 27.h4 Sd6 28.Kg2 Dd8 29.Lg3 a3 30.h5 Se4 31.Tf1 axb2 32.Th7+ Kg8 33.hxg6 Sxf6 34.exf6 b1D 35.Tg7+ Kh8 36.Tf4 Dxf6 37.Th7+ Kg8 38.Txf6 Dc2 39.gxf7+ Txf7 40.Tfxf7 Dxe2+ 41.Kh3 Tb7 42.Thg7+ Kh8 43.Le5 De3+ 44.Kh2 De2+ 45.Kg3 De3+ 46.Kg4 De2+ 47.Kg3 De1+ 48.Kg4 De2+ 49.Kh4 De1+ 50.Kh5 Dd1+ 51.Kg6 Db1+ 52.Kh5 Dh1+ 53.Kg4 Dg1+ 54.Kh5 Dh1+ 55.Kg4 Dg1+ 56.Kh4 De1+ 57.Kh3 Dh1+ 58.Kg3 Dg1+ 59.Kh4
+/- (1.21) Tiefe: 41/86 00:10:29 21130kN, tb=166

27.h4 is still drawn, but 27...Nd6 (?) (...Nxd4 instead holds) loses, yet not as soon as after 28..Qd8( ?) (better 28...Ne8).

[jp]

Thanks peter,
Does this mean Ng5 line instead of Bd2 also wins?

That line after ...Nd6 may still be unclear, but anyway Peter posted on the first page that "...Nxd4 instead [of ... Nd6 (?)] holds".

Edit: see Peter's post above. FF does not come out of this looking good.

[peter]

1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6

[d]1r3rk1/5p1R/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 1 6

Stockfish-dev doesn't seem to see this as winning for White. Evaluation seems stable at 1.40 or so.

Try to give in 6. (27.) Bg3 at once already there and then wait and see.

To be sure, not to be misunderstood again, that works only after 5... (26...) Nd6 (?), not after 5...Nxd4, which draws again.

[zullil]

1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6

[d]1r3rk1/5p1R/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 1 6

Stockfish-dev doesn't seem to see this as winning for White. Evaluation seems stable at 1.40 or so.

Try to give in 6. (27.) Bg3 at once already there and then wait and see.

To be sure, not to be misunderstood again, that works only after 5... (26...) Nd6 (?), not after 5...Nxd4, which draws again.

Stockfish-dev has the following:

[pgn][Event ""] [Site ""] [Date ""] [Round ""] [White ""] [Black ""] [Result ""] [FEN "1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1"] [Setup "1"] 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6 6. Bg3 Qd8 7. Rg7+ Kh8 8. Kg2 Ne8 9. Rxf7 Rxf7 10. Nxf7+ Kg8 11. Nxd8 Rxd8 12. h5 g5 13. Rf1 Nc7 14. f7+ Kg7 15. Be1 Rf8 16. Bd2 Rxf7 17. h6+ Kg8 18. Rxf7 Kxf7 19. Bh5+ Kg8 20. Bg6 Be8 21. Bb1 Bh5 22. Bxg5 Ne8 23. Be7 Ng7 24. hxg7 Kxg7 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Bc5 Bd1 27. Ke3 Bg4 28. Bb6 Bh5 29. Ba5 Bg4 30. Kd2 Bh5 31. Bd8 Bg4 32. Kc1 Be2 33. Bc7 Bh5 34. Bb6 Bg4 35. Ba5 Bh5 36. Kd2 Bf3 37. Bc7 Bh5 38. Bb8 Bg4 39. Kc1 Kg7 40. Bd6 Kf7 41. Bb4 Bf3 42. Ba3 Kg7 43. Bd6 Kf7 44. Kd2 Bh5 45. Ba3 Kg7 46. Ke3 Kf7 47. Kf4 Be2 48. Bd6 Bd1 49. Ke3 Bg4 50. Bc5 Bh5 51. Ba3 Bd1 52. Kd2 Bh5 53. Ke1 Bf3 54. Bc5 Bg4 55. Bd6 Bh5 56. Bb4 Bg4 57. Bc5 Bh5 58. Kf1 Bg4 59. Bd6 Bf3 60. Kf2 Bg4 61. Ba3 Bh5 62. Kg3 Kg7 63. Bd6 Bd1 64. Be7 Kf7 65. Ba3 Bh5 66. Kh2 Be2 67. Kg2 Bd3 68. Bxd3 cxd3 69. Kf2 { 1.23} [/pgn]