The Busted Dutch

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
zullil
Posts: 5617
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by zullil » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:12 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:13 pm

Anyway, guys, I have busted the Dutch.

Really! It's not like I want to steal the spotlight from Lyudmil, but the actual move to play is...

2.Bg5!!
Well, Stockfish-dev doesn't (yet) appreciate the profundity of either 2.d5 or 2.Bg5. It does agree with Lc0 that 2.g3 is likely a good choice. :D

+0.59 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nc3 c6 5. Nf3 e6 6. O-O d5 7. Na4 Bd6 8. c4 Nbd7 9. b3 Qe7 10. Nb2 b6 11. Nd3 O-O 12. Bf4 c5 13. cxd5 exd5 14. Rc1 Ne4 15. h4 Bb7 16. e3 Rac8 17. Bxd6 Qxd6 18. Nf4 Ba6 19. Re1 c4 20. bxc4 Bxc4 21. a4 Qa3 22. Nd2 Qa2 23. Bxe4 fxe4 24. Nxc4 Rxc4 25. Rxc4 dxc4 26. Qg4 Qxa4 27. Ne6 (depth 47, 6:45:57)

+0.54 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. b3 d6 7. Bb2 e6 8. c4 Ne4 9. Nc3 Nc6 10. Rc1 a5 11. Nb5 Bd7 12. e3 Nb4 13. a3 Nd5 14. Nd2 Nxd2 15. Qxd2 Bxb5 16. cxb5 Qd7 17. Qd3 c6 18. bxc6 bxc6 19. Qc2 Rfc8 20. Rfe1 c5 21. Qd2 a4 22. bxa4 c4 23. a5 Qa4 24. Bc3 Qxa3 25. Bxd5 exd5 26. f3 Rab8 (depth 47, 6:45:57)

+0.53 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 c6 4. Bg2 g6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Nc3 Bg7 7. Rb1 O-O 8. O-O Nbd7 9. b3 e5 10. Ng5 Nb6 11. dxe5 dxe5 12. Ba3 Re8 13. e4 Qxd1 14. Rbxd1 f4 15. Bd6 fxg3 16. hxg3 h6 17. Nh3 Be6 18. f3 Nbd7 19. Nf2 Bf8 20. Rd2 h5 21. Bxf8 Kxf8 22. Nh3 Ke7 23. Kf2 Rad8 24. Ng5 Nc5 25. Rdd1 Rd3 26. Rxd3 (depth 47, 6:45:57)

ouachita
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:33 pm
Location: Ritz-Carlton, NYC
Full name: Bobby Johnson

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by ouachita » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:25 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:20 am
I want to post one more topic since my last essential topic message some couple hundred years ago.
Forget about hundred.

Some say I have been original. Is that really so?

Now, Harm will really go crazy, and also Henk, Eelco (how are you doing, buddy?) and (unfortunately) Houdart.
Matter of fact is though, the Dutch (Defence) is busted.
Or at least, far far from optimal.
What do my year-long investigations show?



It proves that, on above tabiya position, representing the Dutch, white is in a possession of a very potent and incisive continuation, namely 2. d5!, after which, if black is ot indeed altogether busted, he is very very close to throwing in the handkerchief, towel, I mean.
How long for your engines to "discover" the abslutely best move, 2. d5! ?
If they are unable to do so after a reasonable time, what scores and what lines would they exhibit after 2. d5 has been forced?
I guess a score of +30-40 centipawns in white's favour is an appropriate assessment of the real situation, but what scores do your pet engines show?

PS. In case you are unable to make sense why 2. d5 is optimal, git a copy of my new book to know the truth, lo-ol. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
I just won a two year long correspondence game as white against the Dutch so it does seem pretty much busted as of today
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

User avatar
Graham Banks
Posts: 33022
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:02 pm

I had the following Dutch lines in my opening book:

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. c4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 O-O 6. a3 Be7 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. c4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 O-O 6. Ngf3 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 O-O 6. Nd2 c5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 O-O 6. c4 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 O-O 6. Nf3 Ne4 7. O-O Nc6 8. c4 e6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 O-O 6. Nf3 Ne4 7. O-O b6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 O-O 6. Nf3 Ne4 7. Nbd2 c5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 O-O 6. Nf3 Ne4 7. Qc1 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Qd3 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. b4 Nc6 6. c3 d6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. b4 Nc6 6. a3 d6 7. Bb2 e5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Nbd2 O-O 6. O-O e6 7. c3 Nc6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Nbd2 O-O 6. O-O d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b4 Bg7 5. Bb2 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d6 5. Bc4 Nf6 6. Nf3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d5 5. Nf3 c6 6. h4 Nd7 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d5 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Bd3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. e4 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. e3 h6 5. Bh4 Nf6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. Ngf3 h6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. c4 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. b3 Nf6 3. Bb2 e6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. e3 e6 5. h4 Be7 *
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. e3 e6 5. Nf3 a6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. e3 e6 5. g4 fxg4 6. h3 g3 7. fxg3 c5 *
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. e3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. f3 c6 5. Qd2 Nbd7 *
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bf4 a6 4. e3 Nf6 5. Bd3 e6 6. Nf3 c5 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. O-O O-O 9. Ne2 Nc6 *


Guess I'll add Lyudmil's suggestion as well. :P
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 2530
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:08 pm

ouachita wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:25 pm
I just won a two year long correspondence game as white against the Dutch so it does seem pretty much busted as of today
Against who? I think I could easily hold the Dutch against anybody in the world (and I know some people that could beat me in the French, so at least 1...f5 seems better than 1...e6). The only reason the Dutch would be busted is that it offers no chance for black to win whatsoever, and white has a wide selection of good choices about how to continue (black can't prepare against all of them) so there's no reason to play it at all.
Graham Banks wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:02 pm
I had the following Dutch lines in my opening book:

<snip>
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d6 5. Bc4 Nf6 6. Nf3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d5 5. Nf3 c6 6. h4 Nd7 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d5 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Bd3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. e4 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. e3 h6 5. Bh4 Nf6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. Ngf3 h6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. c4 c6 *
<snip>


Guess I'll add Lyudmil's suggestion as well. :P
Just make sure to add the other 19 moves better than 2.d5 that you're missing :P

Seriously, though, 1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6! might be the best defense on that line, so it's weird that it's missing.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

supersharp77
Posts: 749
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:54 am
Location: Southwest USA

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by supersharp77 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:17 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:20 am
I want to post one more topic since my last essential topic message some couple hundred years ago.
Forget about hundred.

Some say I have been original. Is that really so?

Now, Harm will really go crazy, and also Henk, Eelco (how are you doing, buddy?) and (unfortunately) Houdart.
Matter of fact is though, the Dutch (Defence) is busted.
Or at least, far far from optimal.
What do my year-long investigations show?



It proves that, on above tabiya position, representing the Dutch, white is in a possession of a very potent and incisive continuation, namely 2. d5!, after which, if black is ot indeed altogether busted, he is very very close to throwing in the handkerchief, towel, I mean.
How long for your engines to "discover" the abslutely best move, 2. d5! ?
If they are unable to do so after a reasonable time, what scores and what lines would they exhibit after 2. d5 has been forced?
I guess a score of +30-40 centipawns in white's favour is an appropriate assessment of the real situation, but what scores do your pet engines show?

PS. In case you are unable to make sense why 2. d5 is optimal, git a copy of my new book to know the truth, lo-ol. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
A nice title for a Book..'The Busted Dutch" but compared to many D-4 defenses actually the Dutch Defence is very little played and analyzed....1. d4 f5 2. d5? c5! transposes into a bad variation of the dangerous "Dutch-Benoni" Defence
The "Lost of Tempo Must Favor Black"....Heres my 3 cents.... :) :wink:


Variation 1
[Event "?"]
[Site "?]
[Date "1991.??.??"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Dutch Test"]
[Black "Dutch Test"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A80"]
[Annotator "AR-SF Ipman SE-3"]
[PlyCount "137"]

.............

Variation 2

[Event "Future Test"]
[Site ?"]
[Date "2019.09.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dutch 2"]
[Black "Dutch 2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A80"]
[Annotator "AR-SF Ipman SE-3"]
[PlyCount "12"]
[TimeControl "60/300+5:40/60+5:60+5"]

...............

User avatar
Graham Banks
Posts: 33022
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:35 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:08 pm
Graham Banks wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:02 pm
I had the following Dutch lines in my opening book:

<snip>
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d6 5. Bc4 Nf6 6. Nf3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d5 5. Nf3 c6 6. h4 Nd7 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d5 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Bd3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. e4 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. e3 h6 5. Bh4 Nf6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. Ngf3 h6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. c4 c6 *
<snip>


Guess I'll add Lyudmil's suggestion as well. :P
Just make sure to add the other 19 moves better than 2.d5 that you're missing :P

Seriously, though, 1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6! might be the best defense on that line, so it's weird that it's missing.
Looks like I need to revise those Bg5 lines, as h6 does indeed have a better record for black.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

zullil
Posts: 5617
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by zullil » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:48 pm

zullil wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:13 pm

Anyway, guys, I have busted the Dutch.

Really! It's not like I want to steal the spotlight from Lyudmil, but the actual move to play is...

2.Bg5!!
Well, Stockfish-dev doesn't (yet) appreciate the profundity of either 2.d5 or 2.Bg5. It does agree with Lc0 that 2.g3 is likely a good choice. :D

+0.59 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nc3 c6 5. Nf3 e6 6. O-O d5 7. Na4 Bd6 8. c4 Nbd7 9. b3 Qe7 10. Nb2 b6 11. Nd3 O-O 12. Bf4 c5 13. cxd5 exd5 14. Rc1 Ne4 15. h4 Bb7 16. e3 Rac8 17. Bxd6 Qxd6 18. Nf4 Ba6 19. Re1 c4 20. bxc4 Bxc4 21. a4 Qa3 22. Nd2 Qa2 23. Bxe4 fxe4 24. Nxc4 Rxc4 25. Rxc4 dxc4 26. Qg4 Qxa4 27. Ne6 (depth 47, 6:45:57)

+0.54 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. b3 d6 7. Bb2 e6 8. c4 Ne4 9. Nc3 Nc6 10. Rc1 a5 11. Nb5 Bd7 12. e3 Nb4 13. a3 Nd5 14. Nd2 Nxd2 15. Qxd2 Bxb5 16. cxb5 Qd7 17. Qd3 c6 18. bxc6 bxc6 19. Qc2 Rfc8 20. Rfe1 c5 21. Qd2 a4 22. bxa4 c4 23. a5 Qa4 24. Bc3 Qxa3 25. Bxd5 exd5 26. f3 Rab8 (depth 47, 6:45:57)

+0.53 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 c6 4. Bg2 g6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Nc3 Bg7 7. Rb1 O-O 8. O-O Nbd7 9. b3 e5 10. Ng5 Nb6 11. dxe5 dxe5 12. Ba3 Re8 13. e4 Qxd1 14. Rbxd1 f4 15. Bd6 fxg3 16. hxg3 h6 17. Nh3 Be6 18. f3 Nbd7 19. Nf2 Bf8 20. Rd2 h5 21. Bxf8 Kxf8 22. Nh3 Ke7 23. Kf2 Rad8 24. Ng5 Nc5 25. Rdd1 Rd3 26. Rxd3 (depth 47, 6:45:57)
Still no 2.d5 or 2.Bg5, but a new ordering for the top 3:

+0.54 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. g3 Bb4 5. Bd2 O-O 6. Bg2 d6 7. a3 Bxc3 8. Bxc3 Nbd7 9. e3 Ne4 10. Qd3 Nxc3 11. Qxc3 Nf6 12. Ne2 Ne4 13. Qc2 e5 14. O-O Qe7 15. b4 Be6 16. Rfc1 Rad8 17. a4 c6 18. Qb2 Rfe8 19. a5 Qf7 20. c5 Bc4 21. cxd6 Bxe2 22. Qxe2 exd4 23. a6 d3 24. Qxd3 Rxd6 25. Qc4 Qxc4 26. Rxc4 bxa6 27. Rcc1 Rd2 28. Rxa6 (depth 48, 10:03:17)

+0.53 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. b3 d6 7. Bb2 Re8 8. c4 Nbd7 9. Ng5 Nf8 10. Nh3 c6 11. d5 Bd7 12. Nc3 h6 13. Qd2 Qa5 14. Nf4 g5 15. Nd3 e6 16. Rfd1 Rad8 17. e3 Ng6 18. e4 exd5 19. exd5 c5 20. a4 a6 21. h3 Re7 22. Re1 Rxe1+ 23. Rxe1 Re8 24. Rxe8+ Bxe8 25. Qc2 Nd7 26. Ne2 Bxb2 27. Qxb2 (depth 48, 10:03:17)

+0.47 2. g3 Nf6 3. b3 a5 4. Bg2 e6 5. Bb2 d5 6. Nh3 Nc6 7. a3 a4 8. b4 b5 9. Nd2 Be7 10. c4 bxc4 11. Nxc4 Ne4 12. Nd2 Nxd2 13. Qxd2 O-O 14. Nf4 Na7 15. Nd3 Nb5 16. O-O Nd6 17. Rfc1 Bd7 18. Qc2 Qe8 19. Nc5 Bc8 20. e3 g5 21. Qe2 Rf6 22. h3 Ra7 23. Qc2 Nc4 24. Bf1 Nxb2 25. Qxb2 f4 26. Qe2 Bxc5 27. Rxc5 fxg3 28. fxg3 (depth 48, 10:03:17)

User avatar
Graham Banks
Posts: 33022
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Graham Banks » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:35 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:35 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:08 pm
Graham Banks wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:02 pm
I had the following Dutch lines in my opening book:

<snip>
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d6 5. Bc4 Nf6 6. Nf3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d5 5. Nf3 c6 6. h4 Nd7 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d5 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Bd3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. e4 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. e3 h6 5. Bh4 Nf6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. Ngf3 h6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. c4 c6 *
<snip>


Guess I'll add Lyudmil's suggestion as well. :P
Just make sure to add the other 19 moves better than 2.d5 that you're missing :P

Seriously, though, 1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6! might be the best defense on that line, so it's weird that it's missing.
Looks like I need to revise those Bg5 lines, as h6 does indeed have a better record for black.
My revised Dutch lines:

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b4 Bg7 5. Bb2 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b4 Bg7 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. c3 d6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Qd3 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 O-O 6. Nd2 c5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 O-O 6. c4 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 O-O 6. Nf3 Ne4 7. Nbd2 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 O-O 6. Nf3 Ne4 7. O-O Nc6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nd2 Bg7 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nd2 Bg7 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nh3 Bg7 6. O-O d6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nh3 Bg7 6. Qb3 d6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nh3 Bg7 6. Nf4 e5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nh3 Nc6 5. c4 Bg7 6. Nf4 d6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nh3 Nc6 5. c3 Bg7 6. O-O d6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nh3 Nc6 5. c3 Bg7 6. Qb3 e6 7. Bg5 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nh3 Nc6 5. c3 Bg7 6. Qb3 e6 7. Nd2 d5 8. Nf4 Qe7 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Nbd2 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. b4 Nc6 6. a3 d6 7. Bb2 e5 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nf3 e6 6. O-O O-O 7. b3 d6 8. Nc3 Ne4 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nf3 e6 6. O-O O-O 7. b3 d6 8. Bb2 Nbd7 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nc3 e6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. b3 O-O 6. Nf3 c5 7. O-O Nc6 *
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. b3 Ne4 6. O-O c6 7. Bb2 d6 *
1. d4 f5 2. d5 Nf6 3. c4 *
1. d4 f5 2. b3 Nf6 3. Bb2 e6 4. Nf3 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bh4 g5 4. e3 Nf6 5. Bg3 d6 6. Nc3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bh4 g5 4. e3 Nf6 5. Bg3 d6 6. Nc3 Bg7 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bf4 Nf6 4. Nc3 d5 5. h4 e6 6. e3 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bf4 Nf6 4. Nc3 d5 5. e3 d6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bf4 d6 4. Nf3 Nf6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bd2 Nf6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bf4 a6 4. e3 e6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. f3 d5 4. Bg5 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. e3 Be6 5. Bd3 g6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. e3 Be6 5. Bd3 Nbd7 *
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

ouachita
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:33 pm
Location: Ritz-Carlton, NYC
Full name: Bobby Johnson

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by ouachita » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:58 am

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:08 pm
ouachita wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:25 pm
I just won a two year long correspondence game as white against the Dutch so it does seem pretty much busted as of today
Against who? I think I could easily hold the Dutch against anybody in the world (and I know some people that could beat me in the French, so at least 1...f5 seems better than 1...e6). The only reason the Dutch would be busted is that it offers no chance for black to win whatsoever, and white has a wide selection of good choices about how to continue (black can't prepare against all of them) so there's no reason to play it at all.
Graham Banks wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:02 pm
I had the following Dutch lines in my opening book:

<snip>
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d6 5. Bc4 Nf6 6. Nf3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d5 5. Nf3 c6 6. h4 Nd7 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e3 d5 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Bd3 c6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. e4 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. e3 h6 5. Bh4 Nf6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nd2 Bg7 4. Ngf3 h6 *
1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. c4 c6 *
<snip>


Guess I'll add Lyudmil's suggestion as well. :P
Just make sure to add the other 19 moves better than 2.d5 that you're missing :P

Seriously, though, 1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6! might be the best defense on that line, so it's weird that it's missing.
A GM. The game was analyzed more than the Kennedy assassination.
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 2530
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:19 am

Thanks. It's strange that my wish is to play someone so strong they can beat me on the Dutch.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

Post Reply