Computer Chess and Capitalism

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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chrisw
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Computer Chess and Capitalism

Post by chrisw » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:35 pm

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:54 am
jewelmind wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:23 am
I still find Chessmaster the most beautiful interface, easier on the eye and less cluttered than anything released since. So I want to keep using it, and I want to watch matches between good engines on it.

I've successfully imported Greko into Chessmaster 10, and the games are great, as Greko is around the same strength. Greko can even use Chessmaster opening books, which is fantastic.

For variety, I would like to import some more Winboard engines into Chessmaster at least as strong as Chessmaster 10 (or 11 - just bought it), but Greko is the only available one I could find. Everything seems to be UCI now. I find the instructions out there on how to import UCI engines into Chessmaster completely bamboozling! An example is this page:

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/genera ... ci-engines

I can't use advice like this as I'm not a programmer. I don't know what a binary is, or an ini file, or how to edit it or with what etc. I'm completely lost with this. I looked at the Polyglot download page and it may as well have been written in ancient Sumerian.

So I think it's best if I just hunt for Winboard engines that can be easily imported into Chessmaster, like Greko. What's good and available and where is it? I've seen someone state that earlier versions of Crafty and Fruit were Winboard - is that true? If so, where are they?!

Note: Please don't post links to old general info like the Wikipedia list of Winboard engines - most of the links are dead now and most of the engines are weak. I need specific links to where I can get good Winboard engines now, as strong or stronger than Greko.
I completely agree. Chessmaster ALWAYS had a stunningly beautiful interface, and I'd be using it now (Polyglot nonsense, I finally figured out), but one cannot include external engines in engine tournaments...that was a deal-breaker for me.

About Winboard Engines:

Thinker (versions 5.1c, 5.1e, 5.4d, 5.3b,5.2c are good place to start)

Frenzee 3.5.19

Dimitri (not so strong, but lots of fun)

ZChess 2.0
Oh, crap, Brendon! Chessmaster was a criminal class venture capitalist program, moving through a stream of bankrupting companies burning their way through outrageous sums of investor cash, advertising, branding with massive budgets and effectively extracting huge amounts of consumer funds which might otherwise have found their way into actual chess programming pockets, rather than making some crooked venture capitalists (who really couldn’t care less what they were selling) rich and ripping off others. The guy on the cover was an old homeless guy they found on the street, like the woman on the cover of Mavis Beacon teaches typing, same marketing guy’s idea, was called in from somewhere, and couldn’t type. This whole thing was marketing over content and they moved from any one engine programmer to another at will, for no apparent good reason. Painful just how many people were taken in by it. Cripes, even Chessbase, great satan in many peoples books, at least are/were a company that actually concentrated on and took an interest in the content of what they are/were selling. Chessmaster?! Pass the sick bag.

BrendanJNorman
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Computer Chess and Capitalism

Post by BrendanJNorman » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:04 am

chrisw wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:35 pm
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:54 am
jewelmind wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:23 am
I still find Chessmaster the most beautiful interface, easier on the eye and less cluttered than anything released since. So I want to keep using it, and I want to watch matches between good engines on it.

I've successfully imported Greko into Chessmaster 10, and the games are great, as Greko is around the same strength. Greko can even use Chessmaster opening books, which is fantastic.

For variety, I would like to import some more Winboard engines into Chessmaster at least as strong as Chessmaster 10 (or 11 - just bought it), but Greko is the only available one I could find. Everything seems to be UCI now. I find the instructions out there on how to import UCI engines into Chessmaster completely bamboozling! An example is this page:

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/genera ... ci-engines

I can't use advice like this as I'm not a programmer. I don't know what a binary is, or an ini file, or how to edit it or with what etc. I'm completely lost with this. I looked at the Polyglot download page and it may as well have been written in ancient Sumerian.

So I think it's best if I just hunt for Winboard engines that can be easily imported into Chessmaster, like Greko. What's good and available and where is it? I've seen someone state that earlier versions of Crafty and Fruit were Winboard - is that true? If so, where are they?!

Note: Please don't post links to old general info like the Wikipedia list of Winboard engines - most of the links are dead now and most of the engines are weak. I need specific links to where I can get good Winboard engines now, as strong or stronger than Greko.
I completely agree. Chessmaster ALWAYS had a stunningly beautiful interface, and I'd be using it now (Polyglot nonsense, I finally figured out), but one cannot include external engines in engine tournaments...that was a deal-breaker for me.

About Winboard Engines:

Thinker (versions 5.1c, 5.1e, 5.4d, 5.3b,5.2c are good place to start)

Frenzee 3.5.19

Dimitri (not so strong, but lots of fun)

ZChess 2.0
Oh, crap, Brendon! Chessmaster was a criminal class venture capitalist program, moving through a stream of bankrupting companies burning their way through outrageous sums of investor cash, advertising, branding with massive budgets and effectively extracting huge amounts of consumer funds which might otherwise have found their way into actual chess programming pockets, rather than making some crooked venture capitalists (who really couldn’t care less what they were selling) rich and ripping off others. The guy on the cover was an old homeless guy they found on the street, like the woman on the cover of Mavis Beacon teaches typing, same marketing guy’s idea, was called in from somewhere, and couldn’t type. This whole thing was marketing over content and they moved from any one engine programmer to another at will, for no apparent good reason. Painful just how many people were taken in by it. Cripes, even Chessbase, great satan in many peoples books, at least are/were a company that actually concentrated on and took an interest in the content of what they are/were selling. Chessmaster?! Pass the sick bag.
Even if the company was funded by crooked capitalists, how does this make my statement that the interface is beautiful, "crap"?

Should I be "revolutionary" and only use Winboard? :lol:

Google was funded by the CIA, but I still sometimes use it when duckduckgo gives poor results...

As I mentioned to you elsewhere, I use the light switch because I like light, but I rarely ponder how a light switch works.

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hgm
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Re: Computer Chess and Capitalism

Post by hgm » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:44 am

[Moderation] These postings were split off from the Chessmaster engine-install thread, because they were rather off-topic there, which annoyed some people.

chrisw
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Re: Computer Chess and Capitalism

Post by chrisw » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:23 am

hgm wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:44 am
[Moderation] These postings were split off from the Chessmaster engine-install thread, because they were rather off-topic there, which annoyed some people.
Not a problem to split off threads. But it is a problem to misattribute. 1. I have not started off any new thread and 2. “Computer Chess and Capitalism” is not my title, nor would it be.

Kindly, and I know it is perfectly possible, attribute the thread to yourself (since you effectively started the thread off) and own the thread title yourself (since you made up the title). ie put yourself with moderator hat at the start if the thread, not the end, nor the middle. Thanks.

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mclane
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Re: Computer Chess and Capitalism

Post by mclane » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:45 am

Maybe something for CTF ??
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

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hgm
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Re: Computer Chess and Capitalism

Post by hgm » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:54 am

chrisw wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:23 am
Not a problem to split off threads. But it is a problem to misattribute. 1. I have not started off any new thread and 2. “Computer Chess and Capitalism” is not my title, nor would it be.

Kindly, and I know it is perfectly possible, attribute the thread to yourself (since you effectively started the thread off) and own the thread title yourself (since you made up the title). ie put yourself with moderator hat at the start if the thread, not the end, nor the middle. Thanks.
1) I did not say anywhere you started a new thread.
2) That I wrote that the postings were split off from another thread should make it obvious that they first had the title of that other thread, and the new title is mine.

If you don't like how it ended up, you should have started the thread yourself, rather than hijacking someone else's thread for a wildly off-topic subject. A moderator is something else than your private secretary, and it is bad enough that your behavior required me to intervene...

Peter Berger
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Re: Computer Chess and Capitalism

Post by Peter Berger » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:17 pm

chrisw wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:23 am
hgm wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:44 am
[Moderation] These postings were split off from the Chessmaster engine-install thread, because they were rather off-topic there, which annoyed some people.
Not a problem to split off threads. But it is a problem to misattribute. 1. I have not started off any new thread and 2. “Computer Chess and Capitalism” is not my title, nor would it be.

Kindly, and I know it is perfectly possible, attribute the thread to yourself (since you effectively started the thread off) and own the thread title yourself (since you made up the title). ie put yourself with moderator hat at the start if the thread, not the end, nor the middle. Thanks.
LOL. And you are right: I seriously wondered why the heck you'd post such a thread about "Computer Chess and Capitalism" with +this+ kind of content. It would definitely be out of character IMHO.

chrisw
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Re: Computer Chess and Capitalism

Post by chrisw » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:55 pm

hgm wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:54 am
chrisw wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:23 am
Not a problem to split off threads. But it is a problem to misattribute. 1. I have not started off any new thread and 2. “Computer Chess and Capitalism” is not my title, nor would it be.

Kindly, and I know it is perfectly possible, attribute the thread to yourself (since you effectively started the thread off) and own the thread title yourself (since you made up the title). ie put yourself with moderator hat at the start if the thread, not the end, nor the middle. Thanks.
1) I did not say anywhere you started a new thread.
BS. The main board listing says it because you put it there not me.
2) That I wrote that the postings were split off from another thread should make it obvious that they first had the title of that other thread, and the new title is mine.
From the main board titles it looks “obvious” that the title is mine, when actually it is yours. That’s a clear misattribution and IIRC Bob Hyatt used to get extremely angry, justifiably, when moderators edited his posts to remove content or even add things he didn’t write. Attributing titles to people who didn’t write them is on the same lines.

Ok, you’re as stubborn as a mule, so I will not bother arguing to get you to change your actions. But I register a firm protest.

If you don't like how it ended up, you should have started the thread yourself, rather than hijacking someone else's thread for a wildly off-topic subject.
More BS, the thread was about the product Chessmaster. I happen to know background history because I negotiated with and was friends with some of the prime movers/principals back at the time. If my opinion about the product is “off-topic” because it is negative then this forum has become a mindless glad-handing echo-chamber. Obviously it is not off-topic.
A moderator is something else than your private secretary, and it is bad enough that your behavior required me to intervene...
What utter pompous BS. I point to a chain of company busts, mergers, acquisitions and more busts with the brand “Chessmaster” getting bought up and passed on each time, and you refer to that as “behaviour”. Doh!

Don’t bother replying.

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Ozymandias
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Re: Computer Chess and Capitalism

Post by Ozymandias » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:20 pm

chrisw wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:55 pm
hgm wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:54 am
chrisw wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:23 am
Not a problem to split off threads. But it is a problem to misattribute. 1. I have not started off any new thread and 2. “Computer Chess and Capitalism” is not my title, nor would it be.

Kindly, and I know it is perfectly possible, attribute the thread to yourself (since you effectively started the thread off) and own the thread title yourself (since you made up the title). ie put yourself with moderator hat at the start if the thread, not the end, nor the middle. Thanks.
1) I did not say anywhere you started a new thread.
BS. The main board listing says it because you put it there not me.
2) That I wrote that the postings were split off from another thread should make it obvious that they first had the title of that other thread, and the new title is mine.
From the main board titles it looks “obvious” that the title is mine, when actually it is yours. That’s a clear misattribution and IIRC Bob Hyatt used to get extremely angry, justifiably, when moderators edited his posts to remove content or even add things he didn’t write. Attributing titles to people who didn’t write them is on the same lines.

Ok, you’re as stubborn as a mule, so I will not bother arguing to get you to change your actions. But I register a firm protest.

If you don't like how it ended up, you should have started the thread yourself, rather than hijacking someone else's thread for a wildly off-topic subject.
More BS, the thread was about the product Chessmaster. I happen to know background history because I negotiated with and was friends with some of the prime movers/principals back at the time. If my opinion about the product is “off-topic” because it is negative then this forum has become a mindless glad-handing echo-chamber. Obviously it is not off-topic.
A moderator is something else than your private secretary, and it is bad enough that your behavior required me to intervene...
What utter pompous BS. I point to a chain of company busts, mergers, acquisitions and more busts with the brand “Chessmaster” getting bought up and passed on each time, and you refer to that as “behaviour”. Doh!

Don’t bother replying.
I usually agree with HG, but in this case I see your (4) points.

BTW, that was some interesting info on CM, if not hilarious because of the wording.

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hgm
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Re: Computer Chess and Capitalism

Post by hgm » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:32 pm

Then you are wrong on all counts. The thread was not about ChessMaster, but was asking for WinBoard engines. Anyone not suggesting a WinBoard engine was already off-topic. This was a clear example of thread hijacking, to which other people took offense. Thread hijacking is an undesired behavior on any forum. Decent people would apologize for it to the O.P., if they did it unintentionally. Only a anarchistic trouble-maker would attack the moderator for cleaning up his mess.

If you don't like the result, don't do it again. It is as simple as that.

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