Smith Morra Bust?

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zenpawn
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Smith Morra Bust?

Post by zenpawn »

18-year old USCF Expert Elijah Logozar claims to have refuted the Smith Morra Gambit. His mainline goes:
[pgn]1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 Nge7!? 7.Bg5 h6!{N}[/pgn]
US Chess is offering an unspecified prize to the best counter-analysis submitted before Aug 15, 2019.
See https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/ for the teen's comments on the line.
Erin Dame
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jdart
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Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by jdart »

6. .. a6 is usual but Nge7 does not look bad.

However, White doesn't have to play 6. Bc4, although that is by far the most popular. Bd3 is possible for example.

--Jon
todd
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Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by todd »

"Bust" is a bit of an extreme word in this case.

I have been communicating with him, and I found forced draws for white in his proposed line (and he agreed with my analysis).

Nevertheless, I think he correctly claims that in his lines, black is the one pressing and white is (successfully, with good play) trying to hold, which is a pretty good outcome for black in chess.
zullil
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Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by zullil »

todd wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:44 pm "Bust" is a bit of an extreme word in this case.

I have been communicating with him, and I found forced draws for white in his proposed line (and he agreed with my analysis).

Nevertheless, I think he correctly claims that in his lines, black is the one pressing and white is (successfully, with good play) trying to hold, which is a pretty good outcome for black in chess.
At https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/ he claims that the following is 0-1. If he now accepts that it's a draw, then a correction/addendum should be added.

[pgn]1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Nge7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Nb5 d5 9. exd5 hxg5 10. dxc6 Nxc6 11. Qxd8+ Kxd8 12. O-O-O+ Ke7 13. Nxg5 g6 [/pgn]

Cfish-dev doesn't seem to believe 0-1:

-0.30 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 e5 16. Kb1 Bg4 17. Nxb7 Nd4 18. Nxd4 Bxd1 19. Nc6+ Kd7 20. Nxe5+ fxe5 21. Rxd1+ Kc7 22. Bd5 Rb8 23. Na5 Bc5 24. Rc1 Kd6 25. Bf3 Bb6 26. Rc6+ Ke7 27. Nc4 Bd4 28. Rxg6 Rxh2 29. Be4 Rc8 30. Bd5 Rd8 31. Be4 Bxf2 32. Nxe5 Rd2 33. a4 Bd4 34. Nc4 Rf2 35. Rc6 Rh1+ 36. Ka2 Re1 37. Bf3 Kf8 38. Rd6 Bg7 39. Rc6 Re8 40. Rc7 Rb8 41. Rxa7 Bxb2 42. Nxb2 Rfxb2+ 43. Ka1 R8b4 44. Bd5 Rd2 45. Bf3 Rc4 46. Kb1 Rc3 47. Bh5 (depth 53, 1:17:43)
Nay Lin Tun
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Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by Nay Lin Tun »

todd wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:44 pm "Bust" is a bit of an extreme word in this case.

I have been communicating with him, and I found forced draws for white in his proposed line (and he agreed with my analysis).

Nevertheless, I think he correctly claims that in his lines, black is the one pressing and white is (successfully, with good play) trying to hold, which is a pretty good outcome for black in chess.
I agreed. Most of gambits are unsound in today technology with tons of analysis.

Busted is unsound media claim in exaggeration. Yes, white will end up with one pawn deficit if black can play accurately.

Because chess is an extremely drawish game with big margin of error. One pawn advantage is not generally gauranteed for the win for the advantaged side. Almost all endgame with one pawn advantage end as draw unless the advantaged side can control the pawn promoting square. I saw smith morgan and similar unsound gambits in TCEC, white is still able to get a draw with one pawn material deficit.


P.S, my personal feeling is one pawn handicap in starting position with 31 men Tablebase is still draw ( unless it is not "f" pawn handicap). :)
zullil
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Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by zullil »

zullil wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:05 am
todd wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:44 pm "Bust" is a bit of an extreme word in this case.

I have been communicating with him, and I found forced draws for white in his proposed line (and he agreed with my analysis).

Nevertheless, I think he correctly claims that in his lines, black is the one pressing and white is (successfully, with good play) trying to hold, which is a pretty good outcome for black in chess.
At https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/ he claims that the following is 0-1. If he now accepts that it's a draw, then a correction/addendum should be added.

[pgn]1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Nge7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Nb5 d5 9. exd5 hxg5 10. dxc6 Nxc6 11. Qxd8+ Kxd8 12. O-O-O+ Ke7 13. Nxg5 g6 [/pgn]

Cfish-dev doesn't seem to believe 0-1:

-0.30 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 e5 16. Kb1 Bg4 17. Nxb7 Nd4 18. Nxd4 Bxd1 19. Nc6+ Kd7 20. Nxe5+ fxe5 21. Rxd1+ Kc7 22. Bd5 Rb8 23. Na5 Bc5 24. Rc1 Kd6 25. Bf3 Bb6 26. Rc6+ Ke7 27. Nc4 Bd4 28. Rxg6 Rxh2 29. Be4 Rc8 30. Bd5 Rd8 31. Be4 Bxf2 32. Nxe5 Rd2 33. a4 Bd4 34. Nc4 Rf2 35. Rc6 Rh1+ 36. Ka2 Re1 37. Bf3 Kf8 38. Rd6 Bg7 39. Rc6 Re8 40. Rc7 Rb8 41. Rxa7 Bxb2 42. Nxb2 Rfxb2+ 43. Ka1 R8b4 44. Bd5 Rd2 45. Bf3 Rc4 46. Kb1 Rc3 47. Bh5 (depth 53, 1:17:43)
And even less like 0-1 now:

-0.15 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 Bh6+ 16. Kb1 Rd8 17. Nxc8+ Raxc8 18. Rhe1 Rxd1+ 19. Rxd1 Rd8 20. Rxd8 Nxd8 21. Kc2 Bg7 22. a3 f5 23. b4 e5 24. g3 e4 25. Nh4 Kf6 26. Ng2 Nf7 27. h4 Nd6 28. Ba2 Nb5 29. a4 Nd4+ 30. Kd2 b5 31. axb5 Nxb5 32. Bc4 Nd4 33. Ne3 Nf3+ 34. Kd1 Bf8 35. Bb5 Kg7 36. Nd5 Kf7 37. Bc4 Ne5 38. Bb5 Ke6 39. Nf4+ Kf6 40. Nd5+ Kf7 41. Ke2 Bh6 42. Ne3 Nf3 43. Bc4+ Ke7 44. Kd1 Bxe3 45. fxe3 Kf6 46. Kc2 Kg7 47. Kc3 Kh6 (depth 62, 8:21:44)
zullil
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Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by zullil »

zullil wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:18 pm
zullil wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:05 am
todd wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:44 pm "Bust" is a bit of an extreme word in this case.

I have been communicating with him, and I found forced draws for white in his proposed line (and he agreed with my analysis).

Nevertheless, I think he correctly claims that in his lines, black is the one pressing and white is (successfully, with good play) trying to hold, which is a pretty good outcome for black in chess.
At https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/ he claims that the following is 0-1. If he now accepts that it's a draw, then a correction/addendum should be added.

[pgn]1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Nge7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Nb5 d5 9. exd5 hxg5 10. dxc6 Nxc6 11. Qxd8+ Kxd8 12. O-O-O+ Ke7 13. Nxg5 g6 [/pgn]

Cfish-dev doesn't seem to believe 0-1:

-0.30 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 e5 16. Kb1 Bg4 17. Nxb7 Nd4 18. Nxd4 Bxd1 19. Nc6+ Kd7 20. Nxe5+ fxe5 21. Rxd1+ Kc7 22. Bd5 Rb8 23. Na5 Bc5 24. Rc1 Kd6 25. Bf3 Bb6 26. Rc6+ Ke7 27. Nc4 Bd4 28. Rxg6 Rxh2 29. Be4 Rc8 30. Bd5 Rd8 31. Be4 Bxf2 32. Nxe5 Rd2 33. a4 Bd4 34. Nc4 Rf2 35. Rc6 Rh1+ 36. Ka2 Re1 37. Bf3 Kf8 38. Rd6 Bg7 39. Rc6 Re8 40. Rc7 Rb8 41. Rxa7 Bxb2 42. Nxb2 Rfxb2+ 43. Ka1 R8b4 44. Bd5 Rd2 45. Bf3 Rc4 46. Kb1 Rc3 47. Bh5 (depth 53, 1:17:43)
And even less like 0-1 now:

-0.15 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 Bh6+ 16. Kb1 Rd8 17. Nxc8+ Raxc8 18. Rhe1 Rxd1+ 19. Rxd1 Rd8 20. Rxd8 Nxd8 21. Kc2 Bg7 22. a3 f5 23. b4 e5 24. g3 e4 25. Nh4 Kf6 26. Ng2 Nf7 27. h4 Nd6 28. Ba2 Nb5 29. a4 Nd4+ 30. Kd2 b5 31. axb5 Nxb5 32. Bc4 Nd4 33. Ne3 Nf3+ 34. Kd1 Bf8 35. Bb5 Kg7 36. Nd5 Kf7 37. Bc4 Ne5 38. Bb5 Ke6 39. Nf4+ Kf6 40. Nd5+ Kf7 41. Ke2 Bh6 42. Ne3 Nf3 43. Bc4+ Ke7 44. Kd1 Bxe3 45. fxe3 Kf6 46. Kc2 Kg7 47. Kc3 Kh6 (depth 62, 8:21:44)
-0.15 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 e5 16. Kb1 Bg4 17. Nxb7 Nd4 18. Nxd4 Bxd1 19. Nc6+ Kd7 20. Nxe5+ fxe5 21. Rxd1+ Kc7 22. Bd5 Rb8 23. Na5 Bc5 24. Nc4 Bxf2 25. Nxe5 Rbe8 26. Nxg6 Rxh2 27. Bf3 Re1 28. Rxe1 Bxe1 29. Nf4 Bg3 30. Nd3 Kb6 31. Kc2 Kb5 32. Kc3 Bh4 33. Kb3 Rh1 34. a4+ Kb6 35. Kc4 Ra1 36. b3 Bg3 37. Kd4 Ka5 38. Bc6 Ra2 39. Bf3 a6 40. Kd5 Kb6 41. Kc4 a5 42. Kd4 Ra3 43. Kc4 Ra1 44. Be4 Rh1 45. b4 Rh4 46. Kd4 Rh8 47. bxa5+ Kxa5 48. Ke3 Rf8 49. Bc6 Rc8 50. Bd5 Rc3 51. Ke4 Kxa4 52. Nf4 Ka5 (depth 64, 11:41:10)
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Ovyron
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Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by Ovyron »

Nay Lin Tun wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:29 amBusted is unsound media claim in exaggeration.
Nah, they're using the same word I used when this happened to the Italian, except those lines remain private :mrgreen: (what's the point of finding 7...h6 if you don't use it to beat anybody?)

My analysis has 7...f6!! as best move instead, with a similar end score at the end of the line. I wonder if I missed my chance to become famous claiming I busted the Smith Morra with 7...f6 :roll:
Uri Blass
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Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by Uri Blass »

zenpawn wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:11 pm 18-year old USCF Expert Elijah Logozar claims to have refuted the Smith Morra Gambit. His mainline goes:
[pgn]1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 Nge7!? 7.Bg5 h6!{N}[/pgn]
US Chess is offering an unspecified prize to the best counter-analysis submitted before Aug 15, 2019.
See https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/ for the teen's comments on the line.
h6 is not a novelty

I can find in chesstempo that
White won against h6 in the following human-human game in 1994

Carrion-Lara, Luis vs Schermer, Anton

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Nge7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Nb5 d5 9. exd5 exd5 10. Bf4 Ng6 11. Nc7+ Ke7 12. Nxd5+ Ke8 13. Nc7+ Ke7 14. Qe2+
zullil
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Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by zullil »

Ovyron wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:43 pm
Nay Lin Tun wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:29 amBusted is unsound media claim in exaggeration.
Nah, they're using the same word I used when this happened to the Italian, except those lines remain private :mrgreen: (what's the point of finding 7...h6 if you don't use it to beat anybody?)

My analysis has 7...f6!! as best move instead, with a similar end score at the end of the line. I wonder if I missed my chance to become famous claiming I busted the Smith Morra with 7...f6 :roll:
I find it difficult to believe that you'd beat anyone with 7...h6. Even at 12+2 time control. Unless the hardware and software you compete against is very weak. The line does seem to show that the gambit, like most gambits, has no chance of being winning for White, at least against decent (i.e., non-human) opposition.