Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

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MikeB
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Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by MikeB » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:26 am

Guenther wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:31 am
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:21 am

My guess is that he will win 2 or 3 and draw the rest. Rooks odds are very tough for the engine.
I was able to pull this win off after losing 3 straight, and I'm nowhere near an FIDE Master. I did give a bishop back , but still had enough to win. The early exchanges of the Queens on move 8 helped me tremendously in this game. Single core/thread - that was enough for me.

...
Have you tried raising contempt a lot? That should help SF in such handicap games vs. Humans.
I personally did not, but yes, I agree , contempt should very high in human handicap games. I was surprised I was I able to win even just once - so next time I will try it with very high contempt.

Uri Blass
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Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:53 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:53 am
Ovyron wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:46 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:56 am
Let's say that thinking on the opponent's time is worth 30% of thinking on our own time (I think this is roughly what ponder stats say).
I think stats would be very different in time handicap matches, specially against computers. And it doesn't matter what happens on the game in general, or on 99% of the moves, the only thing that matters is the position where the GM blunders. The difference between knowing what the engine has played and being able to play the blunder on the board, and being unable to make it on the board (because the engine is still thinking) can be significant if in that time the human finds the move is bad and switches to another.

I guess another way to do this is forcing the human to think, instead of move delay, the engine plays instantly, but there's a set time every move where the human has to wait before making their move, and this set time doesn't decrease the human's time. This is all psychological, and about the human blundering because they have to move fast to avoid losing on time. This is different from Fischer increment in that it can be advantageous with FI to play fast to accumulate time for future moves, and different to just starting the human with more time, because it's clear that if the human played a blunder, they played too fast on this position.

Anyway, probably take-back handicap solves for all of this (who cares if the human blunders if they can just take it back?), so I'm looking forward to such a match. I wonder what other handicaps have yet to be discussed on the thread.
Take-back is a bad idea since even a very weak player in the near 1500-1600 Elo if you allow him to take as many take-backs as possible he can prolong a game for months if NOT for years and make it longer than any correspondence game, and eventually he will find the best and stronger move by try and error after many many many take-backs and constantly watch the evaluation of the engine and know if he is standing slightly better or not and continue the game until he finally beat the best engine.
Take back does not mean there is no limited time for the human to finish the game.

It is possible to have unlimited times of takeback but that the human need to finish playing the game in 8 hours(otherwise it is a loss for the human when the engine get a constant time of 30 seconds per move).

Chessqueen
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Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:53 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:36 pm
I might be able to play a top engine with rook odds against the following player - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dreyer.

In a six game match, how do you think he'd fare?
A Rook is way too much material for any player rated more than 1750 and I see that In the year 1993 this person was rated 2345, but depending how active he still is, a players over time lose somewhere between 50 to 100 rating points and in 26 years it could be very different than was he used to be. I would say based on that point of view that he might get one or two win versus Komodo with a knight odds, but with a Rook odds Komodo does not have a chance unless you get LC0 with the latest GPU available or Komodo with 4 super fast cpus and under Rapid or slow Blitz TC, and under this scenario Komodo might get a few draws and lose the rest. Now if you can get a player rated 1600 thru 1750 then I would say that Komodo with a Rook odds might win 1 and lose 1 and draw the rest.

PS: You can also find a lot of players rated between 1400 thru 1450 here on CCC Forum that can play with a Queen odds and that would be interesting to see at TC 30 minutes per game :roll:

Chessqueen
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Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:02 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:53 am
Graham Banks wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:36 pm
I might be able to play a top engine with rook odds against the following player - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dreyer.

In a six game match, how do you think he'd fare?
A Rook is way too much material for any player rated more than 1750 and I see that In the year 1993 this person was rated 2345, but depending how active he still is, a players over time lose somewhere between 50 to 100 rating points and in 26 years it could be very different than what he used to be. I would say based on that point of view that he might get one or two win versus Komodo with a knight odds, but with a Rook odds Komodo does not have a chance unless you get LC0 with the latest GPU available or Komodo with 4 super fast cpus and under Rapid or slow Blitz TC, and under this scenario Komodo might get a few draws and lose the rest. Now if you can get a player rated 1600 thru 1750 then I would say that Komodo with a Rook odds might win 1 and lose 1 and draw the rest.

PS: You can also find a lot of players rated between 1400 thru 1450 here on CCC Forum that can play with a Queen odds and that would be interesting to see at TC 30 minutes per game. It is only interesting in the sense that when the 1400 thru 1450 failed to win, here people like uri and larry Kaufman can point out what they failed to do to take advantage of the Queen odds and where they went wrong. It would be nice to know what kind of odds to give to players of different levels, so when they purchase Komodo they will be practicing with that type of odds which will make it challenging to different levels of Elo strength :mrgreen:

Chessqueen
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Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:37 pm

adams161 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:26 am
Another problem with odds games is standard chess programs like Stockfish are not typically optimized to play them. The Alpha Beta search wants to find the best move and if that is trading queens it will do it in a heart beat. But the odds player usually uses some non best move intelligence like i need to get into certain positions, avoid to many trades etc which until you have chess programs programming for these types of games its a bit haphazard to say well give up a knights probably 2700. Would depend on how it wound up playing and what strategies that the human was using against it that without a heavy amount of code changes the engine would not defend against.

You are correct, here is a game that my 7 years old daughter rated 1275 played versus Stockfish at Queens odds


lkaufman
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Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by lkaufman » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:34 pm

MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:21 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:46 am
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:00 am
Graham Banks wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:36 pm
I might be able to play a top engine with rook odds against the following player - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dreyer.

In a six game match, how do you think he'd fare?
My guess is that he will win 2 or 3 and draw the rest. Rooks odds are very tough for the engine.
I was able to pull this win off after losing 3 straight, and I'm nowhere near an FIDE Master. I did give a bishop back , but still had enough to win. The early exchanges of the Queens on move 8 helped me tremendously in this game. Single core/thread - that was enough for me.

I'm not familiar with the engine "McCain", but every strong engine should know that rooks are more valuable in the endgame and so you don't trade queens voluntarily when down a rook. Komodo would surely not do this. By the way, it would help if you mention the time limit and your own rating, estimated or actual.
The trade was not in the endgame and even Komodo might trade the queens a rook down if you catch it just right. Once black played 7....Qe7, the queens were coming off...
Komodo 12.3 single core analysis

Code: Select all

dep	score	nodes	time	(not shown:  tbhits	knps	seldep)
 28	 -6.18?	63.4M  	0:52.06	O-O O-O? 
 28	 -6.13!	61.6M  	0:50.51	O-O O-O Be6! 
 28	 -6.25?	55.9M  	0:45.65	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 28	 -6.17?	51.6M  	0:42.15	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 27	 -6.11 	48.2M  	0:39.51	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 c6 Rae1 O-O Kd2 Nd7 Ne2 Nf6 Nf4 Ng4 Re2 Bd7 c3 a6 Bc2 Bc8 Nd3 Nf6 Kc1 Ne4 Nd2 Nf6 Ne5 Be6 f3 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 
 27	 -6.11?	39.4M  	0:32.43	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 27	 -6.06!	38.1M  	0:31.42	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 27	 -6.14!	37.4M  	0:30.84	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 26	 -6.20 	34.4M  	0:28.36	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 c6 Rae1 Nd7 Kd2 O-O Ne2 Nf6 Nf4 Ng4 Rhf1 Bd7 c3 g6 Ne5 Nxe5 dxe5 Bb8 e6 Bxf4+ gxf4 Bxe6 Bxg6 fxg6 Rxe6 
 26	 -6.17?	30.0M  	0:24.81	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.11 	26.9M  	0:22.22	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 a6 Nd1 O-O Ne3 Re8 c3 Nd7 b4 Nf6 Ne5 c6 Kd2 Bc8 f4 Ne4+ Bxe4 dxe4 a4 Bc7 Rae1 f6 Ng6 Kf7 
 25	 -6.08?	24.2M  	0:20.00	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.01!	23.6M  	0:19.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 25	 -6.06?	19.6M  	0:16.44	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.02!	19.3M  	0:16.14	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 24	 -6.08 	18.5M  	0:15.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Be6 Rae1 Nd7 Nd1 O-O Ne3 Re8 c3 Nf6 a3 Bc7 Ne5 c5 Bc2 a6 Nf3 Bg4 Kd3 c4+ Kd2 
 24	 -6.07?	17.1M  	0:14.32	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 23	 -6.01 	16.4M  	0:13.73	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Be6 Rae1 O-O Nd1 Nd7 Ne3 Re8 c3 Nf6 a3 Bc7 Ne5 c5 Bc2 a6 f3 cxd4 cxd4 
 23	 -5.95!	16.1M  	0:13.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 23	 -6.05?	15.5M  	0:13.03	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 23	 -5.98!	15.4M  	0:12.94	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 23	 -6.14?	14.9M  	0:12.50	O-O O-O? 
 23	 -6.03?	13.8M  	0:11.72	O-O O-O? 
 23	 -5.99!	13.5M  	0:11.49	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 23	 -6.11?	13.1M  	0:11.14	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 22	 -6.05 	12.0M  	0:10.28	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Nf4+ Kf1 Nxd3 cxd3 Nc6 Nxd5 Bf5 Rd1 Bg4 Re1+ Kd7 Bg3 Bxf3 gxf3 Nxd4 Kg2 f5 Bxd6 Kxd6 Ne7 Ra8 Ng6 Rd8 
 22	 -6.20?	11.1M  	0:09.48	O-O O-O? 
 22	 -6.09?	8.29M  	0:07.20	O-O O-O? 
 22	 -6.01?	7.15M  	0:06.28	O-O O-O? 
 21	 -5.95 	6.65M  	0:05.85	O-O O-O Bg4 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Bxf3 Qxf3 Bxg3 hxg3 Qb6 Ne2 Re8 Rab1 Nf8 a3 Ne6 c3 Kh8 
 21	 -6.02!	6.44M  	0:05.67	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 21	 -6.07?	6.13M  	0:05.37	O-O O-O? 
 21	 -6.03!	5.93M  	0:05.20	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 20	 -6.09 	4.77M  	0:04.20	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 c6 Qd2 c5 dxc5 Nxc5 Nb5 Be7 Bxf6 Bxf6 Nbd4 Qb6 Rab1 Bg4 c3 Bxf3 Nxf3 Ne6 Bf5 Qc6 Ne5 
 20	 -6.09?	3.69M  	0:03.23	O-O O-O? 
 19	 -6.03 	2.82M  	0:02.45	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Re8 Nc3 c6 Bg3 a6 a3 Bxg3 hxg3 Nbd7 Qd2 Ng4 Rab1 g6 Rbd1 Ndf6 
 19	 -6.11?	2.70M  	0:02.35	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 19	 -5.96?	2.38M  	0:02.09	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 19	 -5.91!	2.24M  	0:01.96	Qe7+ Qe2 Be6! 
 19	 -6.03?	2.09M  	0:01.82	O-O O-O? 
 19	 -5.95?	1.67M  	0:01.46	O-O O-O? 
 18	 -5.89 	1.37M  	0:01.19	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 Nc6 Nbd2 Bb6 Nb3 d4 Nbxd4 Nxd4 cxd4 g5 Bg3 g4 
 18	 -5.94!	1.31M  	0:01.13	O-O O-O Be6! 
 18	 -5.98?	1.14M  	0:00.99	O-O O-O? 
 17	 -5.92 	979406	0:00.83	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 a6 Ne5 c6 Qf3 Qc7 Qe3 c5 f4 c4 f5 cxd3 fxe6 
 17	 -5.92!	968913	0:00.82	O-O O-O Be6! 
 17	 -5.96?	868990	0:00.73	O-O O-O? 
 16	 -5.90 	753699	0:00.62	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 a6 Nbd2 Nbd7 Ne5 c5 Nxd7 Bxd7 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 g5 Bg3 Re8 
 16	 -5.90!	699613	0:00.57	O-O O-O Be6! 
 16	 -5.97?	543817	0:00.44	O-O O-O? 
 16	 -5.92!	526936	0:00.42	O-O O-O Be6! 
 16	 -6.04?	498881	0:00.40	c5 dxc5? 
 16	 -5.96?	415675	0:00.34	c5 dxc5? 
 15	 -5.90 	350469	0:00.29	c5 dxc5 Bxc5 O-O O-O c3 Nc6 Nbd2 Be6 Re1 g5 Nb3 Bb6 Bg3 d4 Nfxd4 Nxd4 
 15	 -5.93?	296280	0:00.25	O-O O-O? 
 14	 -5.87 	279790	0:00.23	O-O O-O Na6 c3 c6 Ne5 Nc5 Nxf7 Rxf7 dxc5 Bxc5 Nd2 g5 Bg3 Bd6 Bxd6 
 14	 -5.87?	180752	0:00.15	O-O O-O? 
 14	 -5.78?	134953	0:00.11	O-O O-O? 
 13	 -5.72 	113473	0:00.10	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 Nc6 Nbd2 g5 Bg3 g4 Nb3 Bb6 
 12	 -5.73 	87663  	0:00.07	O-O O-O Be6 Nc3 Nc6 Re1 a6 a3 Re8 h3 Kh8 Bg3 Bxg3 
 12	 -5.72?	61634  	0:00.05	O-O O-O? 
 12	 -5.63?	32349  	0:00.03	O-O O-O? 
 11	 -5.57 	28258  	0:00.02	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Re1 a6 Bg3 Bxg3 hxg3 Bg4 
 11	 -5.59!	27237  	0:00.02	O-O O-O Nc6! 
 11	 -5.63?	17270  	0:00.02	O-O O-O? 
 10	 -5.57 	11358  	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Nb5 g5 Bg3 Re8 Nxd6 
 10	 -5.51?	8584    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  9	 -5.45 	7188    	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Nb5 g5 Bg3 Re8 
  9	 -5.40?	5310    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  8	 -5.34 	4457    	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 a3 Re8 Re1 
  8	 -5.28?	3674    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  7	 -5.22 	3036    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Bxf6 
  7	 -5.32!	2727    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  6	 -5.39 	2460    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Re1 
  6	 -5.31?	2112    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -5.10?	1905    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -4.95?	1579    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -4.84?	1378    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  5	 -4.78 	1198    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Bxf6 
  5	 -4.78!	1083    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  5	 -5.01!	1003    	0:00.00	O-O Ne5 Nc6! 
  5	 -5.16!	923      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  5	 -5.27!	867      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  4	 -5.33 	573      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Bg4 Nc3 
  3	 -4.52 	376      	0:00.00	O-O O-O g5 
  2	 -5.11 	197      	0:00.00	O-O O-O 
  1	 -1.32 	131      	0:00.00	O-O Bxf6 
game was set to 2 to 3, but I had auto flag turned off and went two or 3 minutes over . as I did glanced at the clock now and then. There was no pondering.

McCain is my own personal Stockfish derivative , probably plays 95% of the time just like SF. The initial driver for me to make fork was not playing strength - SF is plenty strong for me, but the additional options I wanted to see in SF, MCCain today can use 4 polyglot books in sequential order., it has play by ELO option which I developed on my own. It is not based on randomness, but the strength is reduced simply by reducing the nps , if effect reducing the horizon. A ussr can pick specific level World Champion, SIM etc or one can pick an ELo and its pretty accurate - not perfect . but pretty close. At the Word Champion level, McCain wills about 80,000 nps. At the FIDE Master level, it wills see about 1600 NPS. At the Expert level , it wills see about 500 nps.

You can try it yourself. I get the lower nps by introducing a sleep command and if you have a super strong computer , you can adjust the setting to match your computer, It assumes your computer would bench McCain at about 1500K nps, but you can adjust it if you need to.

It also has Jekyll & Hyde setting that can make McCain play a little bizarrely.

Binaries of all flavors can be found here:

https://github.com/MichaelB7/Stockfish/releases/tag/X4

I played in a chess club for years and I'm an average club player in the 1600 to 1700 range.
Thanks for the info. It sounds like your McCain engine will already do what Oviron here has been asking for. Regarding the queen trade in your game, something is strange, because it moves the game stage well towards the endgame, where rooks are more valuable. Based on what I know about Komodo's eval, it makes no sense that it should play the queen check that leads to this exchange. I'll have to investigate.
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:02 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:34 pm
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:21 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:46 am
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:00 am
Graham Banks wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:36 pm
I might be able to play a top engine with rook odds against the following player - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dreyer.

In a six game match, how do you think he'd fare?
My guess is that he will win 2 or 3 and draw the rest. Rooks odds are very tough for the engine.
I was able to pull this win off after losing 3 straight, and I'm nowhere near an FIDE Master. I did give a bishop back , but still had enough to win. The early exchanges of the Queens on move 8 helped me tremendously in this game. Single core/thread - that was enough for me.

I'm not familiar with the engine "McCain", but every strong engine should know that rooks are more valuable in the endgame and so you don't trade queens voluntarily when down a rook. Komodo would surely not do this. By the way, it would help if you mention the time limit and your own rating, estimated or actual.
The trade was not in the endgame and even Komodo might trade the queens a rook down if you catch it just right. Once black played 7....Qe7, the queens were coming off...
Komodo 12.3 single core analysis

Code: Select all

dep	score	nodes	time	(not shown:  tbhits	knps	seldep)
 28	 -6.18?	63.4M  	0:52.06	O-O O-O? 
 28	 -6.13!	61.6M  	0:50.51	O-O O-O Be6! 
 28	 -6.25?	55.9M  	0:45.65	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 28	 -6.17?	51.6M  	0:42.15	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 27	 -6.11 	48.2M  	0:39.51	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 c6 Rae1 O-O Kd2 Nd7 Ne2 Nf6 Nf4 Ng4 Re2 Bd7 c3 a6 Bc2 Bc8 Nd3 Nf6 Kc1 Ne4 Nd2 Nf6 Ne5 Be6 f3 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 
 27	 -6.11?	39.4M  	0:32.43	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 27	 -6.06!	38.1M  	0:31.42	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 27	 -6.14!	37.4M  	0:30.84	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 26	 -6.20 	34.4M  	0:28.36	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 c6 Rae1 Nd7 Kd2 O-O Ne2 Nf6 Nf4 Ng4 Rhf1 Bd7 c3 g6 Ne5 Nxe5 dxe5 Bb8 e6 Bxf4+ gxf4 Bxe6 Bxg6 fxg6 Rxe6 
 26	 -6.17?	30.0M  	0:24.81	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.11 	26.9M  	0:22.22	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 a6 Nd1 O-O Ne3 Re8 c3 Nd7 b4 Nf6 Ne5 c6 Kd2 Bc8 f4 Ne4+ Bxe4 dxe4 a4 Bc7 Rae1 f6 Ng6 Kf7 
 25	 -6.08?	24.2M  	0:20.00	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.01!	23.6M  	0:19.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 25	 -6.06?	19.6M  	0:16.44	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.02!	19.3M  	0:16.14	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 24	 -6.08 	18.5M  	0:15.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Be6 Rae1 Nd7 Nd1 O-O Ne3 Re8 c3 Nf6 a3 Bc7 Ne5 c5 Bc2 a6 Nf3 Bg4 Kd3 c4+ Kd2 
 24	 -6.07?	17.1M  	0:14.32	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 23	 -6.01 	16.4M  	0:13.73	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Be6 Rae1 O-O Nd1 Nd7 Ne3 Re8 c3 Nf6 a3 Bc7 Ne5 c5 Bc2 a6 f3 cxd4 cxd4 
 23	 -5.95!	16.1M  	0:13.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 23	 -6.05?	15.5M  	0:13.03	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 23	 -5.98!	15.4M  	0:12.94	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 23	 -6.14?	14.9M  	0:12.50	O-O O-O? 
 23	 -6.03?	13.8M  	0:11.72	O-O O-O? 
 23	 -5.99!	13.5M  	0:11.49	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 23	 -6.11?	13.1M  	0:11.14	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 22	 -6.05 	12.0M  	0:10.28	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Nf4+ Kf1 Nxd3 cxd3 Nc6 Nxd5 Bf5 Rd1 Bg4 Re1+ Kd7 Bg3 Bxf3 gxf3 Nxd4 Kg2 f5 Bxd6 Kxd6 Ne7 Ra8 Ng6 Rd8 
 22	 -6.20?	11.1M  	0:09.48	O-O O-O? 
 22	 -6.09?	8.29M  	0:07.20	O-O O-O? 
 22	 -6.01?	7.15M  	0:06.28	O-O O-O? 
 21	 -5.95 	6.65M  	0:05.85	O-O O-O Bg4 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Bxf3 Qxf3 Bxg3 hxg3 Qb6 Ne2 Re8 Rab1 Nf8 a3 Ne6 c3 Kh8 
 21	 -6.02!	6.44M  	0:05.67	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 21	 -6.07?	6.13M  	0:05.37	O-O O-O? 
 21	 -6.03!	5.93M  	0:05.20	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 20	 -6.09 	4.77M  	0:04.20	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 c6 Qd2 c5 dxc5 Nxc5 Nb5 Be7 Bxf6 Bxf6 Nbd4 Qb6 Rab1 Bg4 c3 Bxf3 Nxf3 Ne6 Bf5 Qc6 Ne5 
 20	 -6.09?	3.69M  	0:03.23	O-O O-O? 
 19	 -6.03 	2.82M  	0:02.45	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Re8 Nc3 c6 Bg3 a6 a3 Bxg3 hxg3 Nbd7 Qd2 Ng4 Rab1 g6 Rbd1 Ndf6 
 19	 -6.11?	2.70M  	0:02.35	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 19	 -5.96?	2.38M  	0:02.09	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 19	 -5.91!	2.24M  	0:01.96	Qe7+ Qe2 Be6! 
 19	 -6.03?	2.09M  	0:01.82	O-O O-O? 
 19	 -5.95?	1.67M  	0:01.46	O-O O-O? 
 18	 -5.89 	1.37M  	0:01.19	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 Nc6 Nbd2 Bb6 Nb3 d4 Nbxd4 Nxd4 cxd4 g5 Bg3 g4 
 18	 -5.94!	1.31M  	0:01.13	O-O O-O Be6! 
 18	 -5.98?	1.14M  	0:00.99	O-O O-O? 
 17	 -5.92 	979406	0:00.83	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 a6 Ne5 c6 Qf3 Qc7 Qe3 c5 f4 c4 f5 cxd3 fxe6 
 17	 -5.92!	968913	0:00.82	O-O O-O Be6! 
 17	 -5.96?	868990	0:00.73	O-O O-O? 
 16	 -5.90 	753699	0:00.62	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 a6 Nbd2 Nbd7 Ne5 c5 Nxd7 Bxd7 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 g5 Bg3 Re8 
 16	 -5.90!	699613	0:00.57	O-O O-O Be6! 
 16	 -5.97?	543817	0:00.44	O-O O-O? 
 16	 -5.92!	526936	0:00.42	O-O O-O Be6! 
 16	 -6.04?	498881	0:00.40	c5 dxc5? 
 16	 -5.96?	415675	0:00.34	c5 dxc5? 
 15	 -5.90 	350469	0:00.29	c5 dxc5 Bxc5 O-O O-O c3 Nc6 Nbd2 Be6 Re1 g5 Nb3 Bb6 Bg3 d4 Nfxd4 Nxd4 
 15	 -5.93?	296280	0:00.25	O-O O-O? 
 14	 -5.87 	279790	0:00.23	O-O O-O Na6 c3 c6 Ne5 Nc5 Nxf7 Rxf7 dxc5 Bxc5 Nd2 g5 Bg3 Bd6 Bxd6 
 14	 -5.87?	180752	0:00.15	O-O O-O? 
 14	 -5.78?	134953	0:00.11	O-O O-O? 
 13	 -5.72 	113473	0:00.10	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 Nc6 Nbd2 g5 Bg3 g4 Nb3 Bb6 
 12	 -5.73 	87663  	0:00.07	O-O O-O Be6 Nc3 Nc6 Re1 a6 a3 Re8 h3 Kh8 Bg3 Bxg3 
 12	 -5.72?	61634  	0:00.05	O-O O-O? 
 12	 -5.63?	32349  	0:00.03	O-O O-O? 
 11	 -5.57 	28258  	0:00.02	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Re1 a6 Bg3 Bxg3 hxg3 Bg4 
 11	 -5.59!	27237  	0:00.02	O-O O-O Nc6! 
 11	 -5.63?	17270  	0:00.02	O-O O-O? 
 10	 -5.57 	11358  	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Nb5 g5 Bg3 Re8 Nxd6 
 10	 -5.51?	8584    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  9	 -5.45 	7188    	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Nb5 g5 Bg3 Re8 
  9	 -5.40?	5310    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  8	 -5.34 	4457    	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 a3 Re8 Re1 
  8	 -5.28?	3674    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  7	 -5.22 	3036    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Bxf6 
  7	 -5.32!	2727    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  6	 -5.39 	2460    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Re1 
  6	 -5.31?	2112    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -5.10?	1905    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -4.95?	1579    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -4.84?	1378    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  5	 -4.78 	1198    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Bxf6 
  5	 -4.78!	1083    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  5	 -5.01!	1003    	0:00.00	O-O Ne5 Nc6! 
  5	 -5.16!	923      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  5	 -5.27!	867      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  4	 -5.33 	573      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Bg4 Nc3 
  3	 -4.52 	376      	0:00.00	O-O O-O g5 
  2	 -5.11 	197      	0:00.00	O-O O-O 
  1	 -1.32 	131      	0:00.00	O-O Bxf6 
game was set to 2 to 3, but I had auto flag turned off and went two or 3 minutes over . as I did glanced at the clock now and then. There was no pondering.

McCain is my own personal Stockfish derivative , probably plays 95% of the time just like SF. The initial driver for me to make fork was not playing strength - SF is plenty strong for me, but the additional options I wanted to see in SF, MCCain today can use 4 polyglot books in sequential order., it has play by ELO option which I developed on my own. It is not based on randomness, but the strength is reduced simply by reducing the nps , if effect reducing the horizon. A ussr can pick specific level World Champion, SIM etc or one can pick an ELo and its pretty accurate - not perfect . but pretty close. At the Word Champion level, McCain wills about 80,000 nps. At the FIDE Master level, it wills see about 1600 NPS. At the Expert level , it wills see about 500 nps.

You can try it yourself. I get the lower nps by introducing a sleep command and if you have a super strong computer , you can adjust the setting to match your computer, It assumes your computer would bench McCain at about 1500K nps, but you can adjust it if you need to.

It also has Jekyll & Hyde setting that can make McCain play a little bizarrely.

Binaries of all flavors can be found here:

https://github.com/MichaelB7/Stockfish/releases/tag/X4

I played in a chess club for years and I'm an average club player in the 1600 to 1700 range.
Thanks for the info. It sounds like your McCain engine will already do what Oviron here has been asking for. Regarding the queen trade in your game, something is strange, because it moves the game stage well towards the endgame, where rooks are more valuable. Based on what I know about Komodo's eval, it makes no sense that it should play the queen check that leads to this exchange. I'll have to investigate.
I just finished pitting Stockfish versus 4 weak club players averaging from 1375 to 1490 at 10 minutes per game and stockfish lost every single game with a Rook odds; for 2 games I removed the a1 Rook and for two games I removed the h1 rook. It could be that Stockfish is NOT programmed to play with odds. I am pretty sure that Komodo can at least win 2 and draw 2 games.

Uri Blass
Posts: 8605
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:38 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:02 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:34 pm
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:21 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:46 am
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:00 am
Graham Banks wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:36 pm
I might be able to play a top engine with rook odds against the following player - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dreyer.

In a six game match, how do you think he'd fare?
My guess is that he will win 2 or 3 and draw the rest. Rooks odds are very tough for the engine.
I was able to pull this win off after losing 3 straight, and I'm nowhere near an FIDE Master. I did give a bishop back , but still had enough to win. The early exchanges of the Queens on move 8 helped me tremendously in this game. Single core/thread - that was enough for me.

I'm not familiar with the engine "McCain", but every strong engine should know that rooks are more valuable in the endgame and so you don't trade queens voluntarily when down a rook. Komodo would surely not do this. By the way, it would help if you mention the time limit and your own rating, estimated or actual.
The trade was not in the endgame and even Komodo might trade the queens a rook down if you catch it just right. Once black played 7....Qe7, the queens were coming off...
Komodo 12.3 single core analysis

Code: Select all

dep	score	nodes	time	(not shown:  tbhits	knps	seldep)
 28	 -6.18?	63.4M  	0:52.06	O-O O-O? 
 28	 -6.13!	61.6M  	0:50.51	O-O O-O Be6! 
 28	 -6.25?	55.9M  	0:45.65	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 28	 -6.17?	51.6M  	0:42.15	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 27	 -6.11 	48.2M  	0:39.51	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 c6 Rae1 O-O Kd2 Nd7 Ne2 Nf6 Nf4 Ng4 Re2 Bd7 c3 a6 Bc2 Bc8 Nd3 Nf6 Kc1 Ne4 Nd2 Nf6 Ne5 Be6 f3 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 
 27	 -6.11?	39.4M  	0:32.43	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 27	 -6.06!	38.1M  	0:31.42	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 27	 -6.14!	37.4M  	0:30.84	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 26	 -6.20 	34.4M  	0:28.36	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 c6 Rae1 Nd7 Kd2 O-O Ne2 Nf6 Nf4 Ng4 Rhf1 Bd7 c3 g6 Ne5 Nxe5 dxe5 Bb8 e6 Bxf4+ gxf4 Bxe6 Bxg6 fxg6 Rxe6 
 26	 -6.17?	30.0M  	0:24.81	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.11 	26.9M  	0:22.22	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 a6 Nd1 O-O Ne3 Re8 c3 Nd7 b4 Nf6 Ne5 c6 Kd2 Bc8 f4 Ne4+ Bxe4 dxe4 a4 Bc7 Rae1 f6 Ng6 Kf7 
 25	 -6.08?	24.2M  	0:20.00	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.01!	23.6M  	0:19.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 25	 -6.06?	19.6M  	0:16.44	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.02!	19.3M  	0:16.14	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 24	 -6.08 	18.5M  	0:15.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Be6 Rae1 Nd7 Nd1 O-O Ne3 Re8 c3 Nf6 a3 Bc7 Ne5 c5 Bc2 a6 Nf3 Bg4 Kd3 c4+ Kd2 
 24	 -6.07?	17.1M  	0:14.32	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 23	 -6.01 	16.4M  	0:13.73	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Be6 Rae1 O-O Nd1 Nd7 Ne3 Re8 c3 Nf6 a3 Bc7 Ne5 c5 Bc2 a6 f3 cxd4 cxd4 
 23	 -5.95!	16.1M  	0:13.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 23	 -6.05?	15.5M  	0:13.03	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 23	 -5.98!	15.4M  	0:12.94	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 23	 -6.14?	14.9M  	0:12.50	O-O O-O? 
 23	 -6.03?	13.8M  	0:11.72	O-O O-O? 
 23	 -5.99!	13.5M  	0:11.49	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 23	 -6.11?	13.1M  	0:11.14	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 22	 -6.05 	12.0M  	0:10.28	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Nf4+ Kf1 Nxd3 cxd3 Nc6 Nxd5 Bf5 Rd1 Bg4 Re1+ Kd7 Bg3 Bxf3 gxf3 Nxd4 Kg2 f5 Bxd6 Kxd6 Ne7 Ra8 Ng6 Rd8 
 22	 -6.20?	11.1M  	0:09.48	O-O O-O? 
 22	 -6.09?	8.29M  	0:07.20	O-O O-O? 
 22	 -6.01?	7.15M  	0:06.28	O-O O-O? 
 21	 -5.95 	6.65M  	0:05.85	O-O O-O Bg4 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Bxf3 Qxf3 Bxg3 hxg3 Qb6 Ne2 Re8 Rab1 Nf8 a3 Ne6 c3 Kh8 
 21	 -6.02!	6.44M  	0:05.67	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 21	 -6.07?	6.13M  	0:05.37	O-O O-O? 
 21	 -6.03!	5.93M  	0:05.20	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 20	 -6.09 	4.77M  	0:04.20	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 c6 Qd2 c5 dxc5 Nxc5 Nb5 Be7 Bxf6 Bxf6 Nbd4 Qb6 Rab1 Bg4 c3 Bxf3 Nxf3 Ne6 Bf5 Qc6 Ne5 
 20	 -6.09?	3.69M  	0:03.23	O-O O-O? 
 19	 -6.03 	2.82M  	0:02.45	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Re8 Nc3 c6 Bg3 a6 a3 Bxg3 hxg3 Nbd7 Qd2 Ng4 Rab1 g6 Rbd1 Ndf6 
 19	 -6.11?	2.70M  	0:02.35	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 19	 -5.96?	2.38M  	0:02.09	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 19	 -5.91!	2.24M  	0:01.96	Qe7+ Qe2 Be6! 
 19	 -6.03?	2.09M  	0:01.82	O-O O-O? 
 19	 -5.95?	1.67M  	0:01.46	O-O O-O? 
 18	 -5.89 	1.37M  	0:01.19	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 Nc6 Nbd2 Bb6 Nb3 d4 Nbxd4 Nxd4 cxd4 g5 Bg3 g4 
 18	 -5.94!	1.31M  	0:01.13	O-O O-O Be6! 
 18	 -5.98?	1.14M  	0:00.99	O-O O-O? 
 17	 -5.92 	979406	0:00.83	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 a6 Ne5 c6 Qf3 Qc7 Qe3 c5 f4 c4 f5 cxd3 fxe6 
 17	 -5.92!	968913	0:00.82	O-O O-O Be6! 
 17	 -5.96?	868990	0:00.73	O-O O-O? 
 16	 -5.90 	753699	0:00.62	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 a6 Nbd2 Nbd7 Ne5 c5 Nxd7 Bxd7 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 g5 Bg3 Re8 
 16	 -5.90!	699613	0:00.57	O-O O-O Be6! 
 16	 -5.97?	543817	0:00.44	O-O O-O? 
 16	 -5.92!	526936	0:00.42	O-O O-O Be6! 
 16	 -6.04?	498881	0:00.40	c5 dxc5? 
 16	 -5.96?	415675	0:00.34	c5 dxc5? 
 15	 -5.90 	350469	0:00.29	c5 dxc5 Bxc5 O-O O-O c3 Nc6 Nbd2 Be6 Re1 g5 Nb3 Bb6 Bg3 d4 Nfxd4 Nxd4 
 15	 -5.93?	296280	0:00.25	O-O O-O? 
 14	 -5.87 	279790	0:00.23	O-O O-O Na6 c3 c6 Ne5 Nc5 Nxf7 Rxf7 dxc5 Bxc5 Nd2 g5 Bg3 Bd6 Bxd6 
 14	 -5.87?	180752	0:00.15	O-O O-O? 
 14	 -5.78?	134953	0:00.11	O-O O-O? 
 13	 -5.72 	113473	0:00.10	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 Nc6 Nbd2 g5 Bg3 g4 Nb3 Bb6 
 12	 -5.73 	87663  	0:00.07	O-O O-O Be6 Nc3 Nc6 Re1 a6 a3 Re8 h3 Kh8 Bg3 Bxg3 
 12	 -5.72?	61634  	0:00.05	O-O O-O? 
 12	 -5.63?	32349  	0:00.03	O-O O-O? 
 11	 -5.57 	28258  	0:00.02	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Re1 a6 Bg3 Bxg3 hxg3 Bg4 
 11	 -5.59!	27237  	0:00.02	O-O O-O Nc6! 
 11	 -5.63?	17270  	0:00.02	O-O O-O? 
 10	 -5.57 	11358  	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Nb5 g5 Bg3 Re8 Nxd6 
 10	 -5.51?	8584    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  9	 -5.45 	7188    	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Nb5 g5 Bg3 Re8 
  9	 -5.40?	5310    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  8	 -5.34 	4457    	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 a3 Re8 Re1 
  8	 -5.28?	3674    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  7	 -5.22 	3036    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Bxf6 
  7	 -5.32!	2727    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  6	 -5.39 	2460    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Re1 
  6	 -5.31?	2112    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -5.10?	1905    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -4.95?	1579    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -4.84?	1378    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  5	 -4.78 	1198    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Bxf6 
  5	 -4.78!	1083    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  5	 -5.01!	1003    	0:00.00	O-O Ne5 Nc6! 
  5	 -5.16!	923      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  5	 -5.27!	867      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  4	 -5.33 	573      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Bg4 Nc3 
  3	 -4.52 	376      	0:00.00	O-O O-O g5 
  2	 -5.11 	197      	0:00.00	O-O O-O 
  1	 -1.32 	131      	0:00.00	O-O Bxf6 
game was set to 2 to 3, but I had auto flag turned off and went two or 3 minutes over . as I did glanced at the clock now and then. There was no pondering.

McCain is my own personal Stockfish derivative , probably plays 95% of the time just like SF. The initial driver for me to make fork was not playing strength - SF is plenty strong for me, but the additional options I wanted to see in SF, MCCain today can use 4 polyglot books in sequential order., it has play by ELO option which I developed on my own. It is not based on randomness, but the strength is reduced simply by reducing the nps , if effect reducing the horizon. A ussr can pick specific level World Champion, SIM etc or one can pick an ELo and its pretty accurate - not perfect . but pretty close. At the Word Champion level, McCain wills about 80,000 nps. At the FIDE Master level, it wills see about 1600 NPS. At the Expert level , it wills see about 500 nps.

You can try it yourself. I get the lower nps by introducing a sleep command and if you have a super strong computer , you can adjust the setting to match your computer, It assumes your computer would bench McCain at about 1500K nps, but you can adjust it if you need to.

It also has Jekyll & Hyde setting that can make McCain play a little bizarrely.

Binaries of all flavors can be found here:

https://github.com/MichaelB7/Stockfish/releases/tag/X4

I played in a chess club for years and I'm an average club player in the 1600 to 1700 range.
Thanks for the info. It sounds like your McCain engine will already do what Oviron here has been asking for. Regarding the queen trade in your game, something is strange, because it moves the game stage well towards the endgame, where rooks are more valuable. Based on what I know about Komodo's eval, it makes no sense that it should play the queen check that leads to this exchange. I'll have to investigate.
I just finished pitting Stockfish versus 4 weak club players averaging from 1375 to 1490 at 10 minutes per game and stockfish lost every single game with a Rook odds; for 2 games I removed the a1 Rook and for two games I removed the h1 rook. It could be that Stockfish is NOT programmed to play with odds. I am pretty sure that Komodo can at least win 2 and draw 2 games.
I wonder if you changed the contempt of stockfish.
I think that it is better to increase the contempt of stockfish to the maximal value(100) when you play with rook odds.

Note that rook is a lot in every case and I do not know if komodo can get the result that you expect.

Chessqueen
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:56 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:38 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:02 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:34 pm
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:21 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:46 am
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:00 am
Graham Banks wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:36 pm
I might be able to play a top engine with rook odds against the following player - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dreyer.

In a six game match, how do you think he'd fare?
My guess is that he will win 2 or 3 and draw the rest. Rooks odds are very tough for the engine.
I was able to pull this win off after losing 3 straight, and I'm nowhere near an FIDE Master. I did give a bishop back , but still had enough to win. The early exchanges of the Queens on move 8 helped me tremendously in this game. Single core/thread - that was enough for me.

I'm not familiar with the engine "McCain", but every strong engine should know that rooks are more valuable in the endgame and so you don't trade queens voluntarily when down a rook. Komodo would surely not do this. By the way, it would help if you mention the time limit and your own rating, estimated or actual.
The trade was not in the endgame and even Komodo might trade the queens a rook down if you catch it just right. Once black played 7....Qe7, the queens were coming off...
Komodo 12.3 single core analysis

Code: Select all

dep	score	nodes	time	(not shown:  tbhits	knps	seldep)
 28	 -6.18?	63.4M  	0:52.06	O-O O-O? 
 28	 -6.13!	61.6M  	0:50.51	O-O O-O Be6! 
 28	 -6.25?	55.9M  	0:45.65	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 28	 -6.17?	51.6M  	0:42.15	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 27	 -6.11 	48.2M  	0:39.51	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 c6 Rae1 O-O Kd2 Nd7 Ne2 Nf6 Nf4 Ng4 Re2 Bd7 c3 a6 Bc2 Bc8 Nd3 Nf6 Kc1 Ne4 Nd2 Nf6 Ne5 Be6 f3 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 
 27	 -6.11?	39.4M  	0:32.43	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 27	 -6.06!	38.1M  	0:31.42	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 27	 -6.14!	37.4M  	0:30.84	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 26	 -6.20 	34.4M  	0:28.36	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 c6 Rae1 Nd7 Kd2 O-O Ne2 Nf6 Nf4 Ng4 Rhf1 Bd7 c3 g6 Ne5 Nxe5 dxe5 Bb8 e6 Bxf4+ gxf4 Bxe6 Bxg6 fxg6 Rxe6 
 26	 -6.17?	30.0M  	0:24.81	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.11 	26.9M  	0:22.22	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 a6 Nd1 O-O Ne3 Re8 c3 Nd7 b4 Nf6 Ne5 c6 Kd2 Bc8 f4 Ne4+ Bxe4 dxe4 a4 Bc7 Rae1 f6 Ng6 Kf7 
 25	 -6.08?	24.2M  	0:20.00	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.01!	23.6M  	0:19.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 25	 -6.06?	19.6M  	0:16.44	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.02!	19.3M  	0:16.14	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 24	 -6.08 	18.5M  	0:15.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Be6 Rae1 Nd7 Nd1 O-O Ne3 Re8 c3 Nf6 a3 Bc7 Ne5 c5 Bc2 a6 Nf3 Bg4 Kd3 c4+ Kd2 
 24	 -6.07?	17.1M  	0:14.32	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 23	 -6.01 	16.4M  	0:13.73	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Be6 Rae1 O-O Nd1 Nd7 Ne3 Re8 c3 Nf6 a3 Bc7 Ne5 c5 Bc2 a6 f3 cxd4 cxd4 
 23	 -5.95!	16.1M  	0:13.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 23	 -6.05?	15.5M  	0:13.03	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 23	 -5.98!	15.4M  	0:12.94	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 23	 -6.14?	14.9M  	0:12.50	O-O O-O? 
 23	 -6.03?	13.8M  	0:11.72	O-O O-O? 
 23	 -5.99!	13.5M  	0:11.49	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 23	 -6.11?	13.1M  	0:11.14	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 22	 -6.05 	12.0M  	0:10.28	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Nf4+ Kf1 Nxd3 cxd3 Nc6 Nxd5 Bf5 Rd1 Bg4 Re1+ Kd7 Bg3 Bxf3 gxf3 Nxd4 Kg2 f5 Bxd6 Kxd6 Ne7 Ra8 Ng6 Rd8 
 22	 -6.20?	11.1M  	0:09.48	O-O O-O? 
 22	 -6.09?	8.29M  	0:07.20	O-O O-O? 
 22	 -6.01?	7.15M  	0:06.28	O-O O-O? 
 21	 -5.95 	6.65M  	0:05.85	O-O O-O Bg4 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Bxf3 Qxf3 Bxg3 hxg3 Qb6 Ne2 Re8 Rab1 Nf8 a3 Ne6 c3 Kh8 
 21	 -6.02!	6.44M  	0:05.67	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 21	 -6.07?	6.13M  	0:05.37	O-O O-O? 
 21	 -6.03!	5.93M  	0:05.20	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 20	 -6.09 	4.77M  	0:04.20	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 c6 Qd2 c5 dxc5 Nxc5 Nb5 Be7 Bxf6 Bxf6 Nbd4 Qb6 Rab1 Bg4 c3 Bxf3 Nxf3 Ne6 Bf5 Qc6 Ne5 
 20	 -6.09?	3.69M  	0:03.23	O-O O-O? 
 19	 -6.03 	2.82M  	0:02.45	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Re8 Nc3 c6 Bg3 a6 a3 Bxg3 hxg3 Nbd7 Qd2 Ng4 Rab1 g6 Rbd1 Ndf6 
 19	 -6.11?	2.70M  	0:02.35	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 19	 -5.96?	2.38M  	0:02.09	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 19	 -5.91!	2.24M  	0:01.96	Qe7+ Qe2 Be6! 
 19	 -6.03?	2.09M  	0:01.82	O-O O-O? 
 19	 -5.95?	1.67M  	0:01.46	O-O O-O? 
 18	 -5.89 	1.37M  	0:01.19	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 Nc6 Nbd2 Bb6 Nb3 d4 Nbxd4 Nxd4 cxd4 g5 Bg3 g4 
 18	 -5.94!	1.31M  	0:01.13	O-O O-O Be6! 
 18	 -5.98?	1.14M  	0:00.99	O-O O-O? 
 17	 -5.92 	979406	0:00.83	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 a6 Ne5 c6 Qf3 Qc7 Qe3 c5 f4 c4 f5 cxd3 fxe6 
 17	 -5.92!	968913	0:00.82	O-O O-O Be6! 
 17	 -5.96?	868990	0:00.73	O-O O-O? 
 16	 -5.90 	753699	0:00.62	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 a6 Nbd2 Nbd7 Ne5 c5 Nxd7 Bxd7 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 g5 Bg3 Re8 
 16	 -5.90!	699613	0:00.57	O-O O-O Be6! 
 16	 -5.97?	543817	0:00.44	O-O O-O? 
 16	 -5.92!	526936	0:00.42	O-O O-O Be6! 
 16	 -6.04?	498881	0:00.40	c5 dxc5? 
 16	 -5.96?	415675	0:00.34	c5 dxc5? 
 15	 -5.90 	350469	0:00.29	c5 dxc5 Bxc5 O-O O-O c3 Nc6 Nbd2 Be6 Re1 g5 Nb3 Bb6 Bg3 d4 Nfxd4 Nxd4 
 15	 -5.93?	296280	0:00.25	O-O O-O? 
 14	 -5.87 	279790	0:00.23	O-O O-O Na6 c3 c6 Ne5 Nc5 Nxf7 Rxf7 dxc5 Bxc5 Nd2 g5 Bg3 Bd6 Bxd6 
 14	 -5.87?	180752	0:00.15	O-O O-O? 
 14	 -5.78?	134953	0:00.11	O-O O-O? 
 13	 -5.72 	113473	0:00.10	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 Nc6 Nbd2 g5 Bg3 g4 Nb3 Bb6 
 12	 -5.73 	87663  	0:00.07	O-O O-O Be6 Nc3 Nc6 Re1 a6 a3 Re8 h3 Kh8 Bg3 Bxg3 
 12	 -5.72?	61634  	0:00.05	O-O O-O? 
 12	 -5.63?	32349  	0:00.03	O-O O-O? 
 11	 -5.57 	28258  	0:00.02	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Re1 a6 Bg3 Bxg3 hxg3 Bg4 
 11	 -5.59!	27237  	0:00.02	O-O O-O Nc6! 
 11	 -5.63?	17270  	0:00.02	O-O O-O? 
 10	 -5.57 	11358  	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Nb5 g5 Bg3 Re8 Nxd6 
 10	 -5.51?	8584    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  9	 -5.45 	7188    	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Nb5 g5 Bg3 Re8 
  9	 -5.40?	5310    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  8	 -5.34 	4457    	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 a3 Re8 Re1 
  8	 -5.28?	3674    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  7	 -5.22 	3036    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Bxf6 
  7	 -5.32!	2727    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  6	 -5.39 	2460    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Re1 
  6	 -5.31?	2112    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -5.10?	1905    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -4.95?	1579    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -4.84?	1378    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  5	 -4.78 	1198    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Bxf6 
  5	 -4.78!	1083    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  5	 -5.01!	1003    	0:00.00	O-O Ne5 Nc6! 
  5	 -5.16!	923      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  5	 -5.27!	867      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  4	 -5.33 	573      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Bg4 Nc3 
  3	 -4.52 	376      	0:00.00	O-O O-O g5 
  2	 -5.11 	197      	0:00.00	O-O O-O 
  1	 -1.32 	131      	0:00.00	O-O Bxf6 
game was set to 2 to 3, but I had auto flag turned off and went two or 3 minutes over . as I did glanced at the clock now and then. There was no pondering.

McCain is my own personal Stockfish derivative , probably plays 95% of the time just like SF. The initial driver for me to make fork was not playing strength - SF is plenty strong for me, but the additional options I wanted to see in SF, MCCain today can use 4 polyglot books in sequential order., it has play by ELO option which I developed on my own. It is not based on randomness, but the strength is reduced simply by reducing the nps , if effect reducing the horizon. A ussr can pick specific level World Champion, SIM etc or one can pick an ELo and its pretty accurate - not perfect . but pretty close. At the Word Champion level, McCain wills about 80,000 nps. At the FIDE Master level, it wills see about 1600 NPS. At the Expert level , it wills see about 500 nps.

You can try it yourself. I get the lower nps by introducing a sleep command and if you have a super strong computer , you can adjust the setting to match your computer, It assumes your computer would bench McCain at about 1500K nps, but you can adjust it if you need to.

It also has Jekyll & Hyde setting that can make McCain play a little bizarrely.

Binaries of all flavors can be found here:

https://github.com/MichaelB7/Stockfish/releases/tag/X4

I played in a chess club for years and I'm an average club player in the 1600 to 1700 range.
Thanks for the info. It sounds like your McCain engine will already do what Oviron here has been asking for. Regarding the queen trade in your game, something is strange, because it moves the game stage well towards the endgame, where rooks are more valuable. Based on what I know about Komodo's eval, it makes no sense that it should play the queen check that leads to this exchange. I'll have to investigate.
I just finished pitting Stockfish versus 4 weak club players averaging from 1375 to 1490 at 10 minutes per game and stockfish lost every single game with a Rook odds; for 2 games I removed the a1 Rook and for two games I removed the h1 rook. It could be that Stockfish is NOT programmed to play with odds. I am pretty sure that Komodo can at least win 2 and draw 2 games.
I wonder if you changed the contempt of stockfish.
I think that it is better to increase the contempt of stockfish to the maximal value(100) when you play with rook odds.

Note that rook is a lot in every case and I do not know if komodo can get the result that you expect.
That might be the problem I played with the original settings of stockfish, but now all the players left the club. Some of these players that I matched Stockfish with have been playing for over 20 years they are old players between the ages of 50 to 66 years of age.

lkaufman
Posts: 3748
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by lkaufman » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:14 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:56 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:38 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:02 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:34 pm
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:21 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:46 am
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:00 am
Graham Banks wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:36 pm
I might be able to play a top engine with rook odds against the following player - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dreyer.

In a six game match, how do you think he'd fare?
My guess is that he will win 2 or 3 and draw the rest. Rooks odds are very tough for the engine.
I was able to pull this win off after losing 3 straight, and I'm nowhere near an FIDE Master. I did give a bishop back , but still had enough to win. The early exchanges of the Queens on move 8 helped me tremendously in this game. Single core/thread - that was enough for me.

I'm not familiar with the engine "McCain", but every strong engine should know that rooks are more valuable in the endgame and so you don't trade queens voluntarily when down a rook. Komodo would surely not do this. By the way, it would help if you mention the time limit and your own rating, estimated or actual.
The trade was not in the endgame and even Komodo might trade the queens a rook down if you catch it just right. Once black played 7....Qe7, the queens were coming off...
Komodo 12.3 single core analysis

Code: Select all

dep	score	nodes	time	(not shown:  tbhits	knps	seldep)
 28	 -6.18?	63.4M  	0:52.06	O-O O-O? 
 28	 -6.13!	61.6M  	0:50.51	O-O O-O Be6! 
 28	 -6.25?	55.9M  	0:45.65	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 28	 -6.17?	51.6M  	0:42.15	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 27	 -6.11 	48.2M  	0:39.51	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 c6 Rae1 O-O Kd2 Nd7 Ne2 Nf6 Nf4 Ng4 Re2 Bd7 c3 a6 Bc2 Bc8 Nd3 Nf6 Kc1 Ne4 Nd2 Nf6 Ne5 Be6 f3 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 
 27	 -6.11?	39.4M  	0:32.43	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 27	 -6.06!	38.1M  	0:31.42	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 27	 -6.14!	37.4M  	0:30.84	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 26	 -6.20 	34.4M  	0:28.36	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 c6 Rae1 Nd7 Kd2 O-O Ne2 Nf6 Nf4 Ng4 Rhf1 Bd7 c3 g6 Ne5 Nxe5 dxe5 Bb8 e6 Bxf4+ gxf4 Bxe6 Bxg6 fxg6 Rxe6 
 26	 -6.17?	30.0M  	0:24.81	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.11 	26.9M  	0:22.22	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Be6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 a6 Nd1 O-O Ne3 Re8 c3 Nd7 b4 Nf6 Ne5 c6 Kd2 Bc8 f4 Ne4+ Bxe4 dxe4 a4 Bc7 Rae1 f6 Ng6 Kf7 
 25	 -6.08?	24.2M  	0:20.00	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.01!	23.6M  	0:19.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 25	 -6.06?	19.6M  	0:16.44	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 25	 -6.02!	19.3M  	0:16.14	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 24	 -6.08 	18.5M  	0:15.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Be6 Rae1 Nd7 Nd1 O-O Ne3 Re8 c3 Nf6 a3 Bc7 Ne5 c5 Bc2 a6 Nf3 Bg4 Kd3 c4+ Kd2 
 24	 -6.07?	17.1M  	0:14.32	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 23	 -6.01 	16.4M  	0:13.73	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Be6 Rae1 O-O Nd1 Nd7 Ne3 Re8 c3 Nf6 a3 Bc7 Ne5 c5 Bc2 a6 f3 cxd4 cxd4 
 23	 -5.95!	16.1M  	0:13.49	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 23	 -6.05?	15.5M  	0:13.03	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 23	 -5.98!	15.4M  	0:12.94	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+! 
 23	 -6.14?	14.9M  	0:12.50	O-O O-O? 
 23	 -6.03?	13.8M  	0:11.72	O-O O-O? 
 23	 -5.99!	13.5M  	0:11.49	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 23	 -6.11?	13.1M  	0:11.14	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 22	 -6.05 	12.0M  	0:10.28	Qe7+ Qe2 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Nh5 Nc3 Nf4+ Kf1 Nxd3 cxd3 Nc6 Nxd5 Bf5 Rd1 Bg4 Re1+ Kd7 Bg3 Bxf3 gxf3 Nxd4 Kg2 f5 Bxd6 Kxd6 Ne7 Ra8 Ng6 Rd8 
 22	 -6.20?	11.1M  	0:09.48	O-O O-O? 
 22	 -6.09?	8.29M  	0:07.20	O-O O-O? 
 22	 -6.01?	7.15M  	0:06.28	O-O O-O? 
 21	 -5.95 	6.65M  	0:05.85	O-O O-O Bg4 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 c6 Bg3 Bxf3 Qxf3 Bxg3 hxg3 Qb6 Ne2 Re8 Rab1 Nf8 a3 Ne6 c3 Kh8 
 21	 -6.02!	6.44M  	0:05.67	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 21	 -6.07?	6.13M  	0:05.37	O-O O-O? 
 21	 -6.03!	5.93M  	0:05.20	O-O O-O Bg4! 
 20	 -6.09 	4.77M  	0:04.20	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 c6 Qd2 c5 dxc5 Nxc5 Nb5 Be7 Bxf6 Bxf6 Nbd4 Qb6 Rab1 Bg4 c3 Bxf3 Nxf3 Ne6 Bf5 Qc6 Ne5 
 20	 -6.09?	3.69M  	0:03.23	O-O O-O? 
 19	 -6.03 	2.82M  	0:02.45	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Re8 Nc3 c6 Bg3 a6 a3 Bxg3 hxg3 Nbd7 Qd2 Ng4 Rab1 g6 Rbd1 Ndf6 
 19	 -6.11?	2.70M  	0:02.35	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 19	 -5.96?	2.38M  	0:02.09	Qe7+ Qe2? 
 19	 -5.91!	2.24M  	0:01.96	Qe7+ Qe2 Be6! 
 19	 -6.03?	2.09M  	0:01.82	O-O O-O? 
 19	 -5.95?	1.67M  	0:01.46	O-O O-O? 
 18	 -5.89 	1.37M  	0:01.19	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 Nc6 Nbd2 Bb6 Nb3 d4 Nbxd4 Nxd4 cxd4 g5 Bg3 g4 
 18	 -5.94!	1.31M  	0:01.13	O-O O-O Be6! 
 18	 -5.98?	1.14M  	0:00.99	O-O O-O? 
 17	 -5.92 	979406	0:00.83	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 Nbd7 Nc3 a6 Ne5 c6 Qf3 Qc7 Qe3 c5 f4 c4 f5 cxd3 fxe6 
 17	 -5.92!	968913	0:00.82	O-O O-O Be6! 
 17	 -5.96?	868990	0:00.73	O-O O-O? 
 16	 -5.90 	753699	0:00.62	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 a6 Nbd2 Nbd7 Ne5 c5 Nxd7 Bxd7 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 g5 Bg3 Re8 
 16	 -5.90!	699613	0:00.57	O-O O-O Be6! 
 16	 -5.97?	543817	0:00.44	O-O O-O? 
 16	 -5.92!	526936	0:00.42	O-O O-O Be6! 
 16	 -6.04?	498881	0:00.40	c5 dxc5? 
 16	 -5.96?	415675	0:00.34	c5 dxc5? 
 15	 -5.90 	350469	0:00.29	c5 dxc5 Bxc5 O-O O-O c3 Nc6 Nbd2 Be6 Re1 g5 Nb3 Bb6 Bg3 d4 Nfxd4 Nxd4 
 15	 -5.93?	296280	0:00.25	O-O O-O? 
 14	 -5.87 	279790	0:00.23	O-O O-O Na6 c3 c6 Ne5 Nc5 Nxf7 Rxf7 dxc5 Bxc5 Nd2 g5 Bg3 Bd6 Bxd6 
 14	 -5.87?	180752	0:00.15	O-O O-O? 
 14	 -5.78?	134953	0:00.11	O-O O-O? 
 13	 -5.72 	113473	0:00.10	O-O O-O Be6 Re1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 c3 Nc6 Nbd2 g5 Bg3 g4 Nb3 Bb6 
 12	 -5.73 	87663  	0:00.07	O-O O-O Be6 Nc3 Nc6 Re1 a6 a3 Re8 h3 Kh8 Bg3 Bxg3 
 12	 -5.72?	61634  	0:00.05	O-O O-O? 
 12	 -5.63?	32349  	0:00.03	O-O O-O? 
 11	 -5.57 	28258  	0:00.02	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Re1 a6 Bg3 Bxg3 hxg3 Bg4 
 11	 -5.59!	27237  	0:00.02	O-O O-O Nc6! 
 11	 -5.63?	17270  	0:00.02	O-O O-O? 
 10	 -5.57 	11358  	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Nb5 g5 Bg3 Re8 Nxd6 
 10	 -5.51?	8584    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  9	 -5.45 	7188    	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Nb5 g5 Bg3 Re8 
  9	 -5.40?	5310    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  8	 -5.34 	4457    	0:00.01	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 a3 Re8 Re1 
  8	 -5.28?	3674    	0:00.01	O-O O-O? 
  7	 -5.22 	3036    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Bxf6 
  7	 -5.32!	2727    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  6	 -5.39 	2460    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Nc3 Be6 Re1 
  6	 -5.31?	2112    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -5.10?	1905    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -4.95?	1579    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  6	 -4.84?	1378    	0:00.00	O-O O-O? 
  5	 -4.78 	1198    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6 Bxf6 
  5	 -4.78!	1083    	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  5	 -5.01!	1003    	0:00.00	O-O Ne5 Nc6! 
  5	 -5.16!	923      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  5	 -5.27!	867      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Nc6! 
  4	 -5.33 	573      	0:00.00	O-O O-O Bg4 Nc3 
  3	 -4.52 	376      	0:00.00	O-O O-O g5 
  2	 -5.11 	197      	0:00.00	O-O O-O 
  1	 -1.32 	131      	0:00.00	O-O Bxf6 
game was set to 2 to 3, but I had auto flag turned off and went two or 3 minutes over . as I did glanced at the clock now and then. There was no pondering.

McCain is my own personal Stockfish derivative , probably plays 95% of the time just like SF. The initial driver for me to make fork was not playing strength - SF is plenty strong for me, but the additional options I wanted to see in SF, MCCain today can use 4 polyglot books in sequential order., it has play by ELO option which I developed on my own. It is not based on randomness, but the strength is reduced simply by reducing the nps , if effect reducing the horizon. A ussr can pick specific level World Champion, SIM etc or one can pick an ELo and its pretty accurate - not perfect . but pretty close. At the Word Champion level, McCain wills about 80,000 nps. At the FIDE Master level, it wills see about 1600 NPS. At the Expert level , it wills see about 500 nps.

You can try it yourself. I get the lower nps by introducing a sleep command and if you have a super strong computer , you can adjust the setting to match your computer, It assumes your computer would bench McCain at about 1500K nps, but you can adjust it if you need to.

It also has Jekyll & Hyde setting that can make McCain play a little bizarrely.

Binaries of all flavors can be found here:

https://github.com/MichaelB7/Stockfish/releases/tag/X4

I played in a chess club for years and I'm an average club player in the 1600 to 1700 range.
Thanks for the info. It sounds like your McCain engine will already do what Oviron here has been asking for. Regarding the queen trade in your game, something is strange, because it moves the game stage well towards the endgame, where rooks are more valuable. Based on what I know about Komodo's eval, it makes no sense that it should play the queen check that leads to this exchange. I'll have to investigate.
I just finished pitting Stockfish versus 4 weak club players averaging from 1375 to 1490 at 10 minutes per game and stockfish lost every single game with a Rook odds; for 2 games I removed the a1 Rook and for two games I removed the h1 rook. It could be that Stockfish is NOT programmed to play with odds. I am pretty sure that Komodo can at least win 2 and draw 2 games.
I wonder if you changed the contempt of stockfish.
I think that it is better to increase the contempt of stockfish to the maximal value(100) when you play with rook odds.

Note that rook is a lot in every case and I do not know if komodo can get the result that you expect.
That might be the problem I played with the original settings of stockfish, but now all the players left the club. Some of these players that I matched Stockfish with have been playing for over 20 years they are old players between the ages of 50 to 66 years of age.
Last year I had Komodo (MCTS I think) play a bunch of handicap games with a friend at levels somewhere around ten minutes or so. He was aboug 1300 on chess.com blitz. I recall that he had no chance at rook odds, but somewhere around two knights or rook and knight the games became competitive. I think that our webmaster Jesse, who is perhaps 1800 or so strength, found that rook handicap was the most appropriate for him in fast games, but I don't recall details.
Komodo rules!

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