AlphaWhat?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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No comment by Marco Costalba. Why?

AlphaWhat? Never heard of it...
1
3%
Of course, they lost many "private matches" vs. SF + book + proper hashes + Syzygy.
6
15%
This is an abuse of Stockfish name and reputation. I'll start a legal action.
0
No votes
It's far better than Stockfish. Very promising approach. Congratulations!
17
43%
Think at it as you want. That's not my business.
16
40%
 
Total votes: 40

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: AlphaWhat?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:42 pm

Rodolfo Leoni wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Rodolfo Leoni wrote: and we know LTCs work as an equalizer.
We do? Why would we know any such thing?
A weaker engine has more chances to find the right move with LTC. But I'm not starting a poll about it, so everybody can disagree if he wants. 8-)
Indeed, that should be true, but on equal hardware.
We simply don't know what happens with 2 engines on hardware, which is exponentially different.

pilgrimdan
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: AlphaWhat?

Post by pilgrimdan » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:42 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:I suggest a return match with SF being the home team.

Conditions:
- Alpha plays on 1 GPU
- a version of Alpha with no opening knowledge takes part
- TC using increment
- adapted SF plays on 2048 cores, but maybe 8192 is better
- huge HT for SF
- SF has the right of repeating the same winning opening line all over again

After the 100 game match, played at the SF premises(wherever that is, maybe somewhere on the Framework), SF team will declare the result and officially publish 10 games.

What do you think the result will be?
it would be like waiting for Godot ...

Rodolfo Leoni
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Location: Italy

Re: AlphaWhat?

Post by Rodolfo Leoni » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:42 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:I suggest a return match with SF being the home team.

Conditions:
- Alpha plays on 1 GPU
- a version of Alpha with no opening knowledge takes part
- TC using increment
- adapted SF plays on 2048 cores, but maybe 8192 is better
- huge HT for SF
- SF has the right of repeating the same winning opening line all over again

After the 100 game match, played at the SF premises(wherever that is, maybe somewhere on the Framework), SF team will declare the result and officially publish 10 games.

What do you think the result will be?
SF would win +101 =0 -0 :P
F.S.I. Chess Teacher

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: AlphaWhat?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:46 pm

Rodolfo Leoni wrote:
syzygy wrote:......................................................
Note that I am not contesting that AlphaZero improves more than Stockfish with more time. At least the AlphaZero paper suggests that it does. (My explanation for AlphaZero profiting more from having more time is that it needs that time to correct for the inevitable tactical deficiencies of its NN-based evaluation.)
If you're right, we could then presume AlphaZero would heavily lose with blitz TCs.

And there's another doubt: what if AlphaZero played without that 4 hours self-training session?

We'll never know, IMO...
25 days after the glorious event, so precisely 4*150 hours later, when Alpha should obviously be over 15-20 000 elos, STILL not a word from Google about this historic achievement...

Any guess what could have gone wrong?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: AlphaWhat?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:49 pm

Tobber wrote:
APassionForCriminalJustic wrote:
shrapnel wrote:People get so involved in discussions about ELO, TBs and TimeControls and other technicalities, they forget the basics of chess.
If you just go through the Games as a chess player, its completely obvious that Stockfish was completely out-classed and simply didn't have a clue about what was going on.
It is obvious to any average chess player that AlphaZero was playing at a completely different level and was seeing the Chessboard as a whole in a completely different way than Stockfish.
You can grumble about the version of SF used, TC used and anything else, but in my humble opinion, AlphaZero was so completely superior to Stockfish, that it wouldn't have made any significant difference to the outcome.
Its the Dawn of a New Age in computer chess, whether the nay sayers agree or not.
Of course, unfortunately since DeepMind isn't showing much interest in chess, the voices of these negative people will only grow stronger.
Soon they will claim that there was nothing like AlphaZero and it was all a big hoax.
But the people who really understand what Chess is about, have seen what actually happened on the ChessBoard and know the Truth.
You need to remember that the conditions were not at all favorable to Stockfish. This is not about being negative. It's a fact. Stockfish only had one minute to move. That in and of itself is certainly going to make it weaker. Then you can talk about the hash file size. But to me AlphaZero clearly had a hardware advantage running on 4 TPUs. Yes - I am sure that this point has been made multiple times but people seem to agree that those 4 TPUs are many, many times more powerful versus Stockfish's 64-core rig. Team Google should have had more balls. They should have made Stockfish as absolutely as strong as possible. That way - you cover all of your tracks and ultimately diffuse the inevitable skepticism.

Despite all of this Stockfish still had nearly 80 draws. That is far from your claimed whole new different play of chess. Maybe AlphaZero is the future of computer chess. But not anytime soon... good luck affording the particular hardware used... plus AlphaZero is not really that impressive when you do consider its massive state-of-the-art hardware. Don't be blind...
I think you are blinded by your interest in chess. Deepmind/Google has in my opinion no interest at all in chess. They used SF, and similar for Shogi and Go, to prove that their methods work.

They used an official download for SF and no development version, make sense to me.

Trained A0 until it was stronger and then showed the world what they can do. Don't you see the whole point? In a few hours A0 was superior to an engine developed for many years by humans. Against a stronger chess engine they had just enhanced the training of A0.

And 1 minute per move, so what? Of course SF would be stronger with another time setting but so would A0, they took the decision and played games with that settings, same for both engines right? Why is it unfair with the same setting for both engines?

Opening books? A0 did beat SF when using an opening book, not a very advanced opening book but similar to what we saw in TCEC. 50 games as white and 50 as black, what is unfair with that?

Last point the hardware difference. The complaints here are nonsense, they have showed that their combination of hardware and neural networks are better than traditional software development on traditional hardware. (Before you come shouting about other software I should add for some types of software). There's no interest in being "fair", they are interested in the commercial potential with their combination of hardware and NN and chess engines are totally uninteresting in this respect.

/John
They have showed nothing.
They made laughing stocks of themselves, comparing watermelons to blackberries.

Rodolfo Leoni
Posts: 545
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Location: Italy

Re: AlphaWhat?

Post by Rodolfo Leoni » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:51 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Rodolfo Leoni wrote:
syzygy wrote:......................................................
Note that I am not contesting that AlphaZero improves more than Stockfish with more time. At least the AlphaZero paper suggests that it does. (My explanation for AlphaZero profiting more from having more time is that it needs that time to correct for the inevitable tactical deficiencies of its NN-based evaluation.)
If you're right, we could then presume AlphaZero would heavily lose with blitz TCs.

And there's another doubt: what if AlphaZero played without that 4 hours self-training session?

We'll never know, IMO...
25 days after the glorious event, so precisely 4*150 hours later, when Alpha should obviously be over 15-20 000 elos, STILL not a word from Google about this historic achievement...

Any guess what could have gone wrong?
No idea. But I saw the Deep Mind member Matthew L. was connected here this afternoon. It would be nice to get some feedbacks from him.
F.S.I. Chess Teacher

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: AlphaWhat?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:54 pm

shrapnel wrote:
Tobber wrote: In a few hours A0 was superior to an engine developed for many years by humans.
That's the point most people miss (or choose to ignore ?) and go on harping about TCs and Hardware and the like.
Also, the STYLE of play was simply amazing.
Stockfish has been beaten many times by Komodo/Houdini, nothing new, but the way Stockfish was outplayed was astonishing.
AlphaZero simply TOYED with Stockfish in some of those Games and Stockfish looked so clueless, it was almost SCARY !
It made you wonder "Is THIS (Stockfish) what so many brilliant Programmers have been working on for so many years ? If so, they might have better spent that time with their families or playing Tiddlywinks or something ?" :D
It certainly didn't look like a routine Engine-Engine Match.
And the way AlphaZero's detractors emphasize on the large number of Draws is simply ridiculous.
If they had even bothered to go through the DeepMind Paper, it would have been obvious from Figure 2 on Page 7 that strength of AlphaZero increases rapidly with more time given, even more so than Stockfish.
In a Rapid/Blitz Match which most Testers here use, Stockfish may even have achieved a Draw.
In fact the result vindicates my oft-stated conviction that even a million blitz games are no substitute for a few good LTC Matches, but that's another story.
If DeepMind had played the Matches at 2 min/move, we would have been looking at a Score of maybe 72-0 and not 28-0 in favor of AlphaZero !
But perhaps DeepMind was just being kind to the old Alpha-Beta Engine lovers.
Nothing special about its chess.
All my games against SF are much much better and much much deeper.

Hardware can easily cover huge evaluation deficiencies, and that is what happened with Alpha in the match.

1.d4, oh noooo...

Btw., many of the positions were simply hilarious, they are praising Alpha's Bg5 sacrifice, but they forget SF has 4 fully undeveloped pieces. Who plays like that?

Uri Blass
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Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: AlphaWhat?

Post by Uri Blass » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:59 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Rodolfo Leoni wrote:
syzygy wrote:......................................................
Note that I am not contesting that AlphaZero improves more than Stockfish with more time. At least the AlphaZero paper suggests that it does. (My explanation for AlphaZero profiting more from having more time is that it needs that time to correct for the inevitable tactical deficiencies of its NN-based evaluation.)
If you're right, we could then presume AlphaZero would heavily lose with blitz TCs.

And there's another doubt: what if AlphaZero played without that 4 hours self-training session?

We'll never know, IMO...
25 days after the glorious event, so precisely 4*150 hours later, when Alpha should obviously be over 15-20 000 elos, STILL not a word from Google about this historic achievement...

Any guess what could have gone wrong?
I believe it is impossible to get 15-20000 elo and even the perfect player is not going to get it.

I believe that programs of today can draw sometimes against the perfect player at long time control.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: AlphaWhat?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:00 pm

pilgrimdan wrote:
shrapnel wrote:
Tobber wrote: In a few hours A0 was superior to an engine developed for many years by humans.
That's the point most people miss (or choose to ignore ?) and go on harping about TCs and Hardware and the like.
Also, the STYLE of play was simply amazing.
Stockfish has been beaten many times by Komodo/Houdini, nothing new, but the way Stockfish was outplayed was astonishing.
AlphaZero simply TOYED with Stockfish in some of those Games and Stockfish looked so clueless, it was almost SCARY !
It made you wonder "Is THIS (Stockfish) what so many brilliant Programmers have been working on for so many years ? If so, they might have better spent that time with their families or playing Tiddlywinks or something ?" :D
It certainly didn't look like a routine Engine-Engine Match.
And the way AlphaZero's detractors emphasize on the large number of Draws is simply ridiculous.
If they had even bothered to go through the DeepMind Paper, it would have been obvious from Figure 2 on Page 7 that strength of AlphaZero increases rapidly with more time given, even more so than Stockfish.
In a Rapid/Blitz Match which most Testers here use, Stockfish may even have achieved a Draw.
In fact the result vindicates my oft-stated conviction that even a million blitz games are no substitute for a few good LTC Matches, but that's another story.
If DeepMind had played the Matches at 2 min/move, we would have been looking at a Score of maybe 72-0 and not 28-0 in favor of AlphaZero !
But perhaps DeepMind was just being kind to the old Alpha-Beta Engine lovers.
Anil

you may be familiar with a fella name Dale Carnegie...

he wrote a little book called - How to Win Friends and Influence People...

i know you don't 'care' about whether you win friends or not...

but if you want to influence people...

you may want to take a look at it...

truth is harsh...

of which you take great delight in...

wisdom is gentle...

and can influence folks...

you may want to use a little wisdom with your (truthful) words...

folks would listen to you a lot better ... if you did ...

these words I say to you ... are words I say to myself ...
Who cares about what you say?
Those stupid SF programmers, all the bunch of them, are already in the dustbin of history. :lol:

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: AlphaWhat?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:06 pm

Rodolfo Leoni wrote:
Eelco de Groot wrote:This usually happens around Christmas, Rodolfo. Don't pay too much attention. People with too much time not knowing how to spend it more wisely :(
No problem, Eelco. :D
There are just people who can't understand the substance of that event. For someone, that paper became "The Holy Paper". I don't care about fanatism. Nothing is absolutely white or absolutely black.

It was a marketing event. Nothing wrong, because that marketing was about an amazing hardware and its first chess engine. But we still know so little about its potential and limits... The fact of having so many different opinions confirms it's the best hardware innovation ever. Let us see where it brings us...
It brings us nowhere, because it is still only 100 elo above SF, and the perfect player is 3000 elo higher.

What if we move the game of chess onto a 20/20 or, even better, 100/100 board, with additional pieces? You guess anyone will solve that soon.

Hardware, in and of itself, does not mean much.

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