Faster Forced Mate

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MikeGL
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: Faster Forced Mate #82

Post by MikeGL » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:36 pm

Nevermind my solution is wrong because 30...a2 is not forced. Black can play 30...c6 and white will be on zugzwang and needs to regain B tempo again. 30...c6 31...Ka2 might prolong the struggle and could really end in Mate in 82.
Last edited by MikeGL on Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MikeGL
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: Faster Forced Mate

Post by MikeGL » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:43 pm

Vinvin wrote:
MikeGL wrote:
Vinvin wrote:With SF, after 1.Kd4 :

Code: Select all

FEN: qrb5/bkPp3p/1p1B4/1p2P3/1P1KPp2/R4P1p/P3pP1P/4N1n1 b - - 1 1

Stockfish_170616_x64_modern:

 70/35	00:22	 326 616k	14 458k	+M15	1. ... h5 2.Kd3 h4 3.Kd2 Kc6 4.Rc3+ Kb7 5.Nc2 e1R 6.Kxe1 Ne2 7.Kxe2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Ke1 Kc6 10.Nd4+ Kb7 11.Nf5 Kc6 12.Rc3+ Kb7 13.Bf8 Ka6 14.Nd6 Qxe4+ 15.fxe4 f3 16.Ra3+
 71/35	00:22	 326 616k	14 458k	+M15	1. ... h6 2.Kd3 Kc6 3.Rc3+ Kb7 4.Kd2 h5 5.Nc2 Ka6 6.Ra3+ Kb7 7.Nd4 e1R 8.Kxe1 h4 9.Nf5 Nxf3+ 10.Rxf3 Ka6 11.Ra3+ Kb7 12.Nh6 Kc6 13.Rc3+ Kb7 14.Nf7 f3 15.Nd8+ Ka6 16.Ra3+
 71/35	00:22	 326 616k	14 458k	+M17	1. ... Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 h5 8.Nd4 Ka6 9.Ra3+ Kb7 10.Ke1 h4 11.Nf5 Kc6 12.Rc3+ Kb7 13.Nh6 Ka6 14.Nf7 Nxf3+ 15.Rxf3 Qxe4 16.Ra3+ Kb7 17.Nd8+ Ka8 18.cxb8Q+

Thanks Jon and thanks Vincent maybe the #63 label was just a typo then.
Will post that Mate in 82 shortly, which seems to have a shorter solution too.
Chest.EPD is very old thing ;-)
I am looking for the published solutions too. If you have it on one of your backup external drives, then maybe you can reduce my head-scratching and hair-pulling in the coming days. :oops:

User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4148
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: Faster Forced Mate

Post by Eelco de Groot » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:47 pm

I think the highlighted move above 7...h5 makes the mate faster, because the trick is to delay everything and 7...h6 could be stronger and might hold the mate longer.
After 7.Nc2 I get a line with Ka6 as main line. But it is still M18. Stockfish MOD was not doing very well :( But my hardware also is probably not up to it compared with what Vincent sometimes uses. Then I stopped Stockfish MOD and fired up old Rainbow Serpent and it has much less problems :shock:


qrb5/bkPp3p/1p1B4/1p1KP3/1P2Pp2/R4P1p/P3pP1P/4N1n1 w - -

Engine: Rainbow Serpent 20170105 HT (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G.
.
.
.
34/55 1:10 +5.11++ 1.Kd4 (886.311.709) 12610

34/55 1:11 +5.19++ 1.Kd4 (899.100.972) 12630

34/55 1:11 +5.31++ 1.Kd4 (900.683.988) 12631

34/55 1:11 +5.48++ 1.Kd4 (903.394.182) 12632

34/55 1:16 +5.71++ 1.Kd4 (970.436.865) 12646

34/55 1:17 +6.02++ 1.Kd4 (975.725.512) 12640

34/55 1:17 +6.42++ 1.Kd4 (979.207.674) 12639

34/55 1:18 +6.95++ 1.Kd4 (986.463.745) 12638

34/55 1:18 +7.62++ 1.Kd4 (991.287.814) 12634

34/55 1:19 +8.48++ 1.Kd4 (998.534.909) 12628

34/55 1:19 +9.57++ 1.Kd4 (1.001.198.678) 12628

34/55 1:19 +10.95++ 1.Kd4 (1.003.372.180) 12625

34/55 1:19 +12.84++ 1.Kd4 (1.007.916.346) 12621

34/55 1:19 +15.18++ 1.Kd4 (1.008.335.590) 12621

34/55 1:19 +17.97++ 1.Kd4 (1.008.986.187) 12621

34/55 1:19 +21.48++ 1.Kd4 (1.009.433.215) 12621

34/55 1:20 +27.06++ 1.Kd4 (1.010.166.187) 12622

34/55 1:20 +32.53++ 1.Kd4 (1.010.849.623) 12622

34/55 1:20 +39.39++ 1.Kd4 (1.011.304.206) 12622

34/55 1:20 +47.99++ 1.Kd4 (1.011.654.446) 12623

34/55 1:20 +58.76++ 1.Kd4 (1.012.057.839) 12623

34/55 1:20 +72.23++ 1.Kd4 (1.012.358.610) 12623

34/55 1:20 +89.10++ 1.Kd4 (1.013.026.574) 12623

34/55 1:20 +110.19++1.Kd4 (1.013.410.172) 12623

34/64 1:26 +M25 1.Kd4 h5 2.Kd5 h4 3.Kd4 Kc6 4.Rc3+ Kb7
5.Kd3 Ka6 6.Ra3+ Kb7 7.Kd2 Kc6
8.Rc3+ Kb7 9.Nc2 Ka6 10.Ra3+ Kb7
11.Nd4 e1R 12.Kxe1 Ne2 13.Nxe2 Kc6
14.Rc3+ (1.084.146.228) 12500

35/64 1:45 +M21 1.Kd4 h6 2.Kd3 Kc6 3.Rc3+ Kb7 4.Kd2 Ka6
5.Ra3+ Kb7 6.Nc2 Kc6 7.Nd4+ Kb7
8.Ke1 h5 9.Kd2 e1R 10.Kxe1 h4 11.Kd2 Ne2
12.Nxe2 Kc6 13.Rc3+ Kb7 14.Nxf4 (1.292.416.841) 12229

36/64 1:55 +M21 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6
4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7
7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 h6 10.Ke1 h5
11.Kd2 e1R 12.Kxe1 h4 13.Kd2 Ne2
14.Nxe2 (1.394.077.378) 12114

37/64 2:10 +M20 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6
4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7
7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 e1R
10.Kxe1 h5 11.Kd1 Ne2 12.Nxe2 Kc6
13.Nd4+ Kb7 14.Ke1 (1.563.525.277) 11944

38/64 2:30 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6
4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7
7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 Nxf3+
10.Nxf3 Kc6 11.Nd4+ Kb7 12.Kxe2 h6
13.Ke1 f3 14.Nf5 (1.771.178.942) 11768

39/64 3:14 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6
4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7
7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 Nxf3+
10.Nxf3 Kc6 11.Nd4+ Kb7 12.Kxe2 h6
13.Ke1 f3 14.Nf5 (2.250.390.980) 11599

40/64 4:01 +M18 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6
4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7
7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 Nxf3+
10.Nxf3 h6 11.Nd4 h5 12.Ke1 h4
13.Nf3 Kc6 14.Rc3+ (2.769.791.473) 11490

41/64 5:55 +M18 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6
4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7
7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 Nxf3+
10.Nxf3 h6 11.Nd4 h5 12.Ke1 h4
13.Nf3 Kc6 14.Rc3+ (4.035.747.288) 11356

42/64 7:50 +M18 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6
4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7
7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 Nxf3+
10.Nxf3 h6 11.Nd4 h5 12.Ke1 h4
13.Nf3 Kc6 14.Rc3+ (5.322.011.547) 11310

43/64 10:18 +M18 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6
4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7
7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 Nxf3+
10.Nxf3 h6 11.Nd4 h5 12.Ke1 h4
13.Nf3 Kc6 14.Rc3+ (6.955.268.302) 11254

Chest solutions are not always the shortest, that depends on the parameters used. More strict parameters mean longer computations.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

Vinvin
Posts: 4369
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am
Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: Faster Forced Mate

Post by Vinvin » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:06 pm

MikeGL wrote:
Vinvin wrote:
MikeGL wrote:
Vinvin wrote:With SF, after 1.Kd4 :

Code: Select all

FEN: qrb5/bkPp3p/1p1B4/1p2P3/1P1KPp2/R4P1p/P3pP1P/4N1n1 b - - 1 1

Stockfish_170616_x64_modern:

 70/35	00:22	 326 616k	14 458k	+M15	1. ... h5 2.Kd3 h4 3.Kd2 Kc6 4.Rc3+ Kb7 5.Nc2 e1R 6.Kxe1 Ne2 7.Kxe2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Ke1 Kc6 10.Nd4+ Kb7 11.Nf5 Kc6 12.Rc3+ Kb7 13.Bf8 Ka6 14.Nd6 Qxe4+ 15.fxe4 f3 16.Ra3+
 71/35	00:22	 326 616k	14 458k	+M15	1. ... h6 2.Kd3 Kc6 3.Rc3+ Kb7 4.Kd2 h5 5.Nc2 Ka6 6.Ra3+ Kb7 7.Nd4 e1R 8.Kxe1 h4 9.Nf5 Nxf3+ 10.Rxf3 Ka6 11.Ra3+ Kb7 12.Nh6 Kc6 13.Rc3+ Kb7 14.Nf7 f3 15.Nd8+ Ka6 16.Ra3+
 71/35	00:22	 326 616k	14 458k	+M17	1. ... Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 h5 8.Nd4 Ka6 9.Ra3+ Kb7 10.Ke1 h4 11.Nf5 Kc6 12.Rc3+ Kb7 13.Nh6 Ka6 14.Nf7 Nxf3+ 15.Rxf3 Qxe4 16.Ra3+ Kb7 17.Nd8+ Ka8 18.cxb8Q+

Thanks Jon and thanks Vincent maybe the #63 label was just a typo then.
Will post that Mate in 82 shortly, which seems to have a shorter solution too.
Chest.EPD is very old thing ;-)
I am looking for the published solutions too. If you have it on one of your backup external drives, then maybe you can reduce my head-scratching and hair-pulling in the coming days. :oops:
I only found 4 EPD chest files on my harddisk :

Code: Select all

458.641 ChestUCI.epd
435.292 ChestUCI(3).epd
288.120 ChestUCI(4).epd
169.170 ChestUCI(2).epd

Arpad Rusz
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:34 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Faster Forced Mate

Post by Arpad Rusz » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:15 pm

This seems to be a problem by Béla Bakay:
http://ww.yacpdb.org/?id=67727

kgburcham
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:19 pm

Re: Faster Forced Mate

Post by kgburcham » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:08 am

[D] qrb5/bkPp3p/1p1B4/1p1KP3/1P2Pp2/R4P1p/P3pP1P/4N1n1 w - -


Nalimov 6 men EGTB available - 999 MB cache
Engine: Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-pext (8192 MB)
by Robert Houdart
8 threads used

30/67 0:38 +16.34++ 1.Kd4 (788.741.205) 20440 TB:249
30/67 0:38 +16.95++ 1.Kd4 (788.764.950) 20440 TB:249
30/67 0:38 +17.72++ 1.Kd4 (788.924.218) 20439 TB:249
30/67 0:38 +18.71++ 1.Kd4 (791.653.749) 20440 TB:249
30/67 0:38 +19.96++ 1.Kd4 (794.577.642) 20441 TB:249
30/67 0:41 +M30 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 h6 10.Nc2 Kc6 11.Rc3+ Kb7 12.Rb3 Kc6 13.Nd4+ Kb7 14.Ra3 (847.411.438) 20493 TB:249
30/67 0:44 +M30 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 h6 10.Nc2 Kc6 11.Rc3+ Kb7 12.Rb3 Kc6 13.Nd4+ Kb7 14.Ra3 (911.559.206) 20535 TB:249
31/67 0:44 +M30 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 h6 10.Nc2 Kc6 11.Rc3+ Kb7 12.Rb3 Kc6 13.Nd4+ Kb7 14.Ra3 (912.752.268) 20537 TB:249
31/67 0:46 +M30 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 h6 10.Nc2 Kc6 11.Rc3+ Kb7 12.Rb3 Kc6 13.Nd4+ Kb7 14.Ra3 (950.754.424) 20587 TB:249
32/67 0:46 +M34 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 h6 10.Nc2 h5 11.Nd4 e1R 12.Kxe1 Ne2 13.Kxe2 h4 14.Nc2 (953.349.616) 20590 TB:249
32/67 0:48 +M34 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 h6 10.Nc2 h5 11.Nd4 e1R 12.Kxe1 Ne2 13.Kxe2 h4 14.Nc2 (1.002.095.681) 20676 TB:251
33/73 0:49 +M34 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 h6 10.Nc2 h5 11.Nd4 e1R 12.Kxe1 Ne2 13.Kxe2 h4 14.Nc2 (1.024.845.782) 20703 TB:252
33/73 0:52 +M34 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 h6 10.Nc2 h5 11.Nd4 e1R 12.Kxe1 Ne2 13.Kxe2 h4 14.Nc2 (1.084.189.326) 20721 TB:256
34/73 0:54 +M26 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 h6 8.Rb3 Kc6 9.Nd4+ Kb7 10.Ra3 h5 11.Ke1 h4 12.Kd2 e1R 13.Kxe1 Nxf3+ 14.Nxf3 (1.137.661.548) 20822 TB:257
34/73 0:56 +M26 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 h6 8.Rb3 Kc6 9.Nd4+ Kb7 10.Ra3 h5 11.Ke1 h4 12.Kd2 e1R 13.Kxe1 Nxf3+ 14.Nxf3 (1.174.624.610) 20871 TB:257
35/73 0:56 +M26 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 h6 8.Rb3 Kc6 9.Nd4+ Kb7 10.Ra3 h5 11.Ke1 h4 12.Kd2 e1R 13.Kxe1 Nxf3+ 14.Nxf3 (1.180.750.795) 20884 TB:257
35/73 0:58 +M26 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 h6 8.Rb3 Kc6 9.Nd4+ Kb7 10.Ra3 h5 11.Ke1 h4 12.Kd2 e1R 13.Kxe1 Nxf3+ 14.Nxf3 (1.215.362.509) 20899 TB:257
36/73 1:02 +M26 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 h5 8.Ra3 Kc6 9.Nd4+ Kb7 10.Ke1 h4 11.Kd2 e1R 12.Kxe1 Nxf3+ 13.Nxf3 Kc6 14.Rc3+ (1.303.943.285) 20858 TB:257
36/73 1:08 +M26 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 h5 8.Ra3 Kc6 9.Nd4+ Kb7 10.Ke1 h4 11.Kd2 e1R 12.Kxe1 Nxf3+ 13.Nxf3 Kc6 14.Rc3+ (1.422.600.915) 20848 TB:259
36/73 1:27 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 Nxf3+ 10.Nxf3 h6 11.Kxe2 Kc6 12.Nd4+ Kb7 13.Ke1 f3 14.Nf5 (1.879.127.634) 21413 TB:311
36/73 1:33 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 Nxf3+ 10.Nxf3 h6 11.Kxe2 Kc6 12.Nd4+ Kb7 13.Ke1 f3 14.Nf5 (2.018.087.280) 21515 TB:318
37/73 1:39 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 Nxf3+ 10.Nxf3 h6 11.Kxe2 Kc6 12.Nd4+ Kb7 13.Ke1 f3 14.Nf5 (2.144.548.688) 21601 TB:319
37/73 1:45 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Ka6 8.Ra3+ Kb7 9.Nd4 Nxf3+ 10.Nxf3 h6 11.Kxe2 Kc6 12.Nd4+ Kb7 13.Ke1 f3 14.Nf5 (2.282.688.947) 21685 TB:324
38/73 1:53 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 e1R 8.Kxe1 Nxf3+ 9.Rxf3 Ka6 10.Ra3+ Kb7 11.Nd4 f3 12.Kd2 h6 13.Ke1 h5 14.Nxf3 (2.481.853.321) 21789 TB:373
38/73 2:05 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 e1R 8.Kxe1 Nxf3+ 9.Rxf3 Ka6 10.Ra3+ Kb7 11.Nd4 f3 12.Kd2 h6 13.Ke1 h5 14.Nxf3 (2.726.044.084) 21730 TB:443
39/73 2:25 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 e1R 8.Kxe1 Nxf3+ 9.Rxf3 Ka6 10.Ra3+ Kb7 11.Nd4 f3 12.Kd2 h6 13.Ke1 h5 14.Nxf3 (3.190.431.100) 21862 TB:474
39/73 2:33 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 e1R 8.Kxe1 Nxf3+ 9.Rxf3 Ka6 10.Ra3+ Kb7 11.Nd4 f3 12.Kd2 h6 13.Ke1 h5 14.Nxf3 (3.372.999.968) 21921 TB:478
40/73 3:39 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Nxf3+ 8.Rxf3 Ka6 9.Ra3+ Kb7 10.Kxe2 Kc6 11.Nd4+ Kb7 12.Kd2 f3 13.Kd3 h6 14.Nf5 (4.838.205.817) 22076 TB:900
40/73 3:44 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Nxf3+ 8.Rxf3 Ka6 9.Ra3+ Kb7 10.Kxe2 Kc6 11.Nd4+ Kb7 12.Kd2 f3 13.Kd3 h6 14.Nf5 (4.943.540.116) 22046 TB:930
41/73 3:47 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Nxf3+ 8.Rxf3 Ka6 9.Ra3+ Kb7 10.Kxe2 Kc6 11.Nd4+ Kb7 12.Kd2 f3 13.Kd3 h6 14.Nf5 (5.015.489.180) 22032 TB:943
41/73 3:51 +M19 1.Kd4 Kc6 2.Rc3+ Kb7 3.Kd3 Ka6 4.Ra3+ Kb7 5.Kd2 Kc6 6.Rc3+ Kb7 7.Nc2 Nxf3+ 8.Rxf3 Ka6 9.Ra3+ Kb7 10.Kxe2 Kc6 11.Nd4+ Kb7 12.Kd2 f3 13.Kd3 h6 14.Nf5 (5.092.802.037) 22005 TB:958
best move: Kd5-d4 time: 3:53.391 min n/s: 22.005.000 nodes: 5.092.802.037 TB: 958
no chess program was born totally from one mind. all chess programs have many ideas from many minds.

MikeGL
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: Faster Forced Mate #82 or #88?

Post by MikeGL » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:44 am

MikeGL wrote:Nevermind my solution is wrong because 30...a2 is not forced. Black can play 30...c6 and white will be on zugzwang and needs to regain B tempo again. 30...c6 31...Ka2 might prolong the struggle and could really end in Mate in 82.
[d]8/1p1p2p1/5p1p/5P1P/1p1p1P2/pP1P1P2/P1k1B3/4K3 w - - 0 1

The solution I can find is Mate in #88 not mate in #82 as what was published.
Maybe there's some engine line improvement down the line.
[pgn]
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "Talkchess"]
[Date "2017.06.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "McBrain_2017"]
[Black "McBrain_2017"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2400"]
[TimeControl "0+2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/1p1p2p1/5p1p/5P1P/1p1p1P2/pP1P1P2/P1k1B3/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "175"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Bf1 Kc1 2. Bh3 Kc2 3. Ke2 Kc1 4. Bg2 Kc2 5. Bf1 Kc1 6. Ke1 Kc2 7. Be2
Kc1 8. Bd1 Kb2 9. Kd2 Kb1 10. Be2 Kb2 11. Bf1 Kb1 12. Bh3 Kb2 13. Bg2 Kb1
14. Bf1 Kb2 15. Be2 Kb1 16. Bd1 Kb2 17. Bc2 Ka1 18. Kc1 Kxa2 19. Bd1 Ka1
20. Be2 Ka2 21. Kc2 Ka1 22. Bf1 Ka2 23. Bh3 Ka1 24. Bg2 Ka2 25. Bf1 Ka1 26.
Be2 Ka2 27. Bd1 Ka1 28. Kc1 Ka2 29. Bc2 Ka1 30. Bb1 b6 31. Bc2 Ka2 32. Bd1
Ka1 33. Be2 Ka2 34. Kc2 Ka1 35. Bf1 Ka2 36. Bh3 Ka1 37. Bg2 Ka2 38. Bf1 Ka1
39. Be2 Ka2 40. Bd1 Ka1 41. Kc1 Ka2 42. Bc2 Ka1 43. Bb1 b5 44. Bc2 Ka2 45.
Bd1 Ka1 46. Be2 Ka2 47. Kc2 Ka1 48. Bf1 Ka2 49. Bh3 Ka1 50. Bg2 Ka2 51. Bf1
Ka1 52. Be2 Ka2 53. Bd1 Ka1 54. Kc1 Ka2 55. Bc2 Ka1 56. Bb1 d6 57. Bc2 Ka2
58. Bd1 Ka1 59. Be2 Ka2 60. Kc2 Ka1 61. Bf1 Ka2 62. Bh3 Ka1 63. Bg2 Ka2 64.
Bf1 Ka1 65. Be2 Ka2 66. Bd1 Ka1 67. Kc1 Ka2 68. Bc2 Ka1 69. Bb1 d5 70. Bc2
Ka2 71. Bd1 Ka1 72. Be2 Ka2 73. Kc2 Ka1 74. Bf1 Ka2 75. Bh3 Ka1 76. Bg2 Ka2
77. Bf1 Ka1 78. Be2 Ka2 79. Bd1 Ka1 80. Kc1 Ka2 81. Bc2 Ka1 82. Bb1 a2 83.
Bc2 g5 84. hxg6 h5 85. g7 h4 86. g8=Q h3 87. Qxd5 h2 88. Qxd4# 1-0
[/pgn]

Vinvin
Posts: 4369
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am
Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: Faster Forced Mate #82 or #88?

Post by Vinvin » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:06 am

MikeGL wrote:
MikeGL wrote:Nevermind my solution is wrong because 30...a2 is not forced. Black can play 30...c6 and white will be on zugzwang and needs to regain B tempo again. 30...c6 31...Ka2 might prolong the struggle and could really end in Mate in 82.
[d]8/1p1p2p1/5p1p/5P1P/1p1p1P2/pP1P1P2/P1k1B3/4K3 w - - 0 1

The solution I can find is Mate in #88 not mate in #82 as what was published.
Maybe there's some engine line improvement down the line.
[pgn]
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "Talkchess"]
[Date "2017.06.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "McBrain_2017"]
[Black "McBrain_2017"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2400"]
[TimeControl "0+2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/1p1p2p1/5p1p/5P1P/1p1p1P2/pP1P1P2/P1k1B3/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "175"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Bf1 Kc1 2. Bh3 Kc2 3. Ke2 Kc1 4. Bg2 Kc2 5. Bf1 Kc1 6. Ke1 Kc2 7. Be2
Kc1 8. Bd1 Kb2 9. Kd2 Kb1 10. Be2 Kb2 11. Bf1 Kb1 12. Bh3 Kb2 13. Bg2 Kb1
14. Bf1 Kb2 15. Be2 Kb1 16. Bd1 Kb2 17. Bc2 Ka1 18. Kc1 Kxa2 19. Bd1 Ka1
20. Be2 Ka2 21. Kc2 Ka1 22. Bf1 Ka2 23. Bh3 Ka1 24. Bg2 Ka2 25. Bf1 Ka1 26.
Be2 Ka2 27. Bd1 Ka1 28. Kc1 Ka2 29. Bc2 Ka1 30. Bb1 b6 31. Bc2 Ka2 32. Bd1
Ka1 33. Be2 Ka2 34. Kc2 Ka1 35. Bf1 Ka2 36. Bh3 Ka1 37. Bg2 Ka2 38. Bf1 Ka1
39. Be2 Ka2 40. Bd1 Ka1 41. Kc1 Ka2 42. Bc2 Ka1 43. Bb1 b5 44. Bc2 Ka2 45.
Bd1 Ka1 46. Be2 Ka2 47. Kc2 Ka1 48. Bf1 Ka2 49. Bh3 Ka1 50. Bg2 Ka2 51. Bf1
Ka1 52. Be2 Ka2 53. Bd1 Ka1 54. Kc1 Ka2 55. Bc2 Ka1 56. Bb1 d6 57. Bc2 Ka2
58. Bd1 Ka1 59. Be2 Ka2 60. Kc2 Ka1 61. Bf1 Ka2 62. Bh3 Ka1 63. Bg2 Ka2 64.
Bf1 Ka1 65. Be2 Ka2 66. Bd1 Ka1 67. Kc1 Ka2 68. Bc2 Ka1 69. Bb1 d5 70. Bc2
Ka2 71. Bd1 Ka1 72. Be2 Ka2 73. Kc2 Ka1 74. Bf1 Ka2 75. Bh3 Ka1 76. Bg2 Ka2
77. Bf1 Ka1 78. Be2 Ka2 79. Bd1 Ka1 80. Kc1 Ka2 81. Bc2 Ka1 82. Bb1 a2 83.
Bc2 g5 84. hxg6 h5 85. g7 h4 86. g8=Q h3 87. Qxd5 h2 88. Qxd4# 1-0
[/pgn]
An idea to solve this one with engines : if there are only pawn moves -> extend the search (to resolve the zugzwang position).
I got mate score with Sting-SF 8.1 but it was not the shortest way.

MikeGL
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: Faster Forced Mate #82 or #88?

Post by MikeGL » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:19 am

Vinvin wrote:
MikeGL wrote:
MikeGL wrote:Nevermind my solution is wrong because 30...a2 is not forced. Black can play 30...c6 and white will be on zugzwang and needs to regain B tempo again. 30...c6 31...Ka2 might prolong the struggle and could really end in Mate in 82.
[d]8/1p1p2p1/5p1p/5P1P/1p1p1P2/pP1P1P2/P1k1B3/4K3 w - - 0 1

The solution I can find is Mate in #88 not mate in #82 as what was published.
Maybe there's some engine line improvement down the line.
[pgn]
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "Talkchess"]
[Date "2017.06.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "McBrain_2017"]
[Black "McBrain_2017"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2400"]
[TimeControl "0+2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/1p1p2p1/5p1p/5P1P/1p1p1P2/pP1P1P2/P1k1B3/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "175"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Bf1 Kc1 2. Bh3 Kc2 3. Ke2 Kc1 4. Bg2 Kc2 5. Bf1 Kc1 6. Ke1 Kc2 7. Be2
Kc1 8. Bd1 Kb2 9. Kd2 Kb1 10. Be2 Kb2 11. Bf1 Kb1 12. Bh3 Kb2 13. Bg2 Kb1
14. Bf1 Kb2 15. Be2 Kb1 16. Bd1 Kb2 17. Bc2 Ka1 18. Kc1 Kxa2 19. Bd1 Ka1
20. Be2 Ka2 21. Kc2 Ka1 22. Bf1 Ka2 23. Bh3 Ka1 24. Bg2 Ka2 25. Bf1 Ka1 26.
Be2 Ka2 27. Bd1 Ka1 28. Kc1 Ka2 29. Bc2 Ka1 30. Bb1 b6 31. Bc2 Ka2 32. Bd1
Ka1 33. Be2 Ka2 34. Kc2 Ka1 35. Bf1 Ka2 36. Bh3 Ka1 37. Bg2 Ka2 38. Bf1 Ka1
39. Be2 Ka2 40. Bd1 Ka1 41. Kc1 Ka2 42. Bc2 Ka1 43. Bb1 b5 44. Bc2 Ka2 45.
Bd1 Ka1 46. Be2 Ka2 47. Kc2 Ka1 48. Bf1 Ka2 49. Bh3 Ka1 50. Bg2 Ka2 51. Bf1
Ka1 52. Be2 Ka2 53. Bd1 Ka1 54. Kc1 Ka2 55. Bc2 Ka1 56. Bb1 d6 57. Bc2 Ka2
58. Bd1 Ka1 59. Be2 Ka2 60. Kc2 Ka1 61. Bf1 Ka2 62. Bh3 Ka1 63. Bg2 Ka2 64.
Bf1 Ka1 65. Be2 Ka2 66. Bd1 Ka1 67. Kc1 Ka2 68. Bc2 Ka1 69. Bb1 d5 70. Bc2
Ka2 71. Bd1 Ka1 72. Be2 Ka2 73. Kc2 Ka1 74. Bf1 Ka2 75. Bh3 Ka1 76. Bg2 Ka2
77. Bf1 Ka1 78. Be2 Ka2 79. Bd1 Ka1 80. Kc1 Ka2 81. Bc2 Ka1 82. Bb1 a2 83.
Bc2 g5 84. hxg6 h5 85. g7 h4 86. g8=Q h3 87. Qxd5 h2 88. Qxd4# 1-0
[/pgn]
An idea to solve this one with engines : if there are only pawn moves -> extend the search (to resolve the zugzwang position).
I got mate score with Sting-SF 8.1 but it was not the shortest way.
Thanks for the engine config tip, will try that later on my personal machine. For the mean time I think I saw an improvement on the above solution. Moves 10 to 16 of white is not necessary because white can directly play 10.Bc2+ then followed by 11.Kc1 Δ 12.Bd1 or 11.Kd1 Kc3 12.Kc1 depending on whites reply.

peter
Posts: 1778
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Faster Forced Mate #82 or #88?

Post by peter » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:29 am

Hi!
MikeGL wrote: For the mean time I think I saw an improvement on the above solution. Moves 10 to 16 of white is not necessary because white can directly play 10.Bc2+ then followed by 11.Kc1 or 11.Kd1 Δ 12.Kc1 depending on white whites replies. 88-6 = 82 moves
Had a little detour of that kind in my line at first too and deleted yesterdyay a posting about it again. 82 seems to be correct:

[pgn]
[Event "#82"]
[Site "Talkchess"]
[Date "2017.06.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Fabel, Karl"]
[Black "komodo0, Sting"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/1p1p2p1/5p1p/5P1P/1p1p1P2/pP1P1P2/P1k1B3/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "163"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]

1. Bf1 Kc1 2. Bh3 Kc2 3. Ke2 Kc1 4. Bg2 Kc2 5. Bf1 Kc1 6. Ke1 Kc2 7. Be2 Kc1 8.
Bd1 Kb2 9. Kd2 Kb1 10. Bc2+ Kb2 11. Kd1 Ka1 12. Kc1 Kxa2 13. Bd1 Ka1 14. Kc2
Ka2 15. Be2 Ka1 16. Bf1 Ka2 17. Bh3 Ka1 18. Bg2 Ka2 19. Bf1 Ka1 20. Be2 Ka2 21.
Bd1 Ka1 22. Kc1 Ka2 23. Bc2 Ka1 24. Bb1 d6 25. Bc2 Ka2 26. Bd1 Ka1 27. Kc2 Ka2
28. Be2 Ka1 29. Bf1 Ka2 30. Bg2 Ka1 31. Bh3 Ka2 32. Bf1 Ka1 33. Be2 Ka2 34. Bd1
Ka1 35. Kc1 Ka2 36. Bc2 Ka1 37. Bb1 d5 38. Bc2 Ka2 39. Bd1 Ka1 40. Kc2 Ka2 41.
Be2 Ka1 42. Bf1 Ka2 43. Bh3 Ka1 44. Bg2 Ka2 45. Bf1 Ka1 46. Be2 Ka2 47. Bd1 Ka1
48. Kc1 Ka2 49. Bc2 Ka1 50. Bb1 b6 51. Bc2 Ka2 52. Bd1 Ka1 53. Kc2 Ka2 54. Be2
Ka1 55. Bf1 Ka2 56. Bh3 Ka1 57. Bg2 Ka2 58. Bf1 Ka1 59. Be2 Ka2 60. Bd1 Ka1 61.
Kc1 Ka2 62. Bc2 Ka1 63. Bb1 b5 64. Bc2 Ka2 65. Bd1 Ka1 66. Kc2 Ka2 67. Be2 Ka1
68. Bf1 Ka2 69. Bg2 Ka1 70. Bh3 Ka2 71. Bf1 Ka1 72. Be2 Ka2 73. Bd1 Ka1 74. Kc1
Ka2 75. Bc2 Ka1 76. Bb1 g5 77. hxg6 h5 78. g7 a2 79. Bc2 h4 80. g8=Q h3 81.
Qxd5 h2 82. Qxd4# 1-0
[/pgn]

Best engine for (backward) solving this might be komodo with switched off nullmove.
According to YACPD it's a study from Karl Fabel (1951, #82).
Database gives only first move as solution, which is not so difficult to find anyhow.
:)
Yet a great one from there onward, in German I'd say Fabel-haft
:!:
Peter.

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