People are just desperate for a houdini miracle... Houdini will fail like it did before with houdini 4... while Houdart was on vacation both Komodo and Stockfish walked away with the crown.mjlef wrote:Contempt = 7 is pretty important. We lowered the Contempt for this stage because the average opponent rating is higher than the last stage. Using a higher Contempt would have encouraged Komodo to try to avoid draws harder, and to keep more pieces on the board at some sacrifice of positional play. Dynamism also was wrong and our testing showed in Komodo 10.1, the higher setting was better.IanO wrote:The differences can be found in the initial game comment.carldaman wrote:What was wrong with Komodo's settings? People should at least be entitled to a proper explanation by the organizers.
Before:After:Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Use Syzygy=true; Syzygy Probe Depth=2; Syzygy Probe Limit=6; Dynamism=110;
To summarize, removing custom Syzygy probe options and "Dynamism" (whatever that is), and adding Contempt 7.Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Contempt=7;
It would be nice to hear from Mark what the effects of these changes are likely to be.
TCEC has been very accurate at settings in the past, but we are all only human and some errors can occur. When they are found it should be corrected and replayed, which is what they did, and swiftly too.
There will be lots of games in this Stage.
TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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Re: TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
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- Full name: Kai Laskos
Re: TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
The values "Before" were close to to optimal. The ELO loss was no larger than 5-10 ELO points and hardly the reason for the lost game. Seems unfair to Houdini to replay the game.IanO wrote:The differences can be found in the initial game comment.carldaman wrote:What was wrong with Komodo's settings? People should at least be entitled to a proper explanation by the organizers.
Before:After:Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Use Syzygy=true; Syzygy Probe Depth=2; Syzygy Probe Limit=6; Dynamism=110;
To summarize, removing custom Syzygy probe options and "Dynamism" (whatever that is), and adding Contempt 7.Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Contempt=7;
It would be nice to hear from Mark what the effects of these changes are likely to be.
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Re: TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
That was my reasoning as well.Laskos wrote:The values "Before" were close to to optimal. The ELO loss was no larger than 5-10 ELO points and hardly the reason for the lost game. Seems unfair to Houdini to replay the game.IanO wrote:The differences can be found in the initial game comment.carldaman wrote:What was wrong with Komodo's settings? People should at least be entitled to a proper explanation by the organizers.
Before:After:Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Use Syzygy=true; Syzygy Probe Depth=2; Syzygy Probe Limit=6; Dynamism=110;
To summarize, removing custom Syzygy probe options and "Dynamism" (whatever that is), and adding Contempt 7.Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Contempt=7;
It would be nice to hear from Mark what the effects of these changes are likely to be.
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- Posts: 10948
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:21 pm
- Full name: Kai Laskos
Re: TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
To see how disproportionate the action to replay the game is, for at most 5-10 ELO points loss in ONE game, they changed the result in the whole Stage 3 by 1 point between Komodo and Houdini, and that in 56 games each amounts to 13 ELO points in the WHOLE stage.carldaman wrote:That was my reasoning as well.Laskos wrote:The values "Before" were close to to optimal. The ELO loss was no larger than 5-10 ELO points and hardly the reason for the lost game. Seems unfair to Houdini to replay the game.IanO wrote:The differences can be found in the initial game comment.carldaman wrote:What was wrong with Komodo's settings? People should at least be entitled to a proper explanation by the organizers.
Before:After:Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Use Syzygy=true; Syzygy Probe Depth=2; Syzygy Probe Limit=6; Dynamism=110;
To summarize, removing custom Syzygy probe options and "Dynamism" (whatever that is), and adding Contempt 7.Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Contempt=7;
It would be nice to hear from Mark what the effects of these changes are likely to be.
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- Location: Tel-Aviv Israel
Re: TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
I do not think that we know the elo loss at long time control and there is no basis to claim that the wrong setting is not the reason for the lost game.Laskos wrote:The values "Before" were close to to optimal. The ELO loss was no larger than 5-10 ELO points and hardly the reason for the lost game. Seems unfair to Houdini to replay the game.IanO wrote:The differences can be found in the initial game comment.carldaman wrote:What was wrong with Komodo's settings? People should at least be entitled to a proper explanation by the organizers.
Before:After:Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Use Syzygy=true; Syzygy Probe Depth=2; Syzygy Probe Limit=6; Dynamism=110;
To summarize, removing custom Syzygy probe options and "Dynamism" (whatever that is), and adding Contempt 7.Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Contempt=7;
It would be nice to hear from Mark what the effects of these changes are likely to be.
I see nothing unfair for Houdini.
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- Location: Tel-Aviv Israel
Re: TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
It is not clear that Houdini will fail and I do not think that you know what Robert Houdart did in the time since Houdini4.APassionForCriminalJustic wrote:People are just desperate for a houdini miracle... Houdini will fail like it did before with houdini 4... while Houdart was on vacation both Komodo and Stockfish walked away with the crown.mjlef wrote:Contempt = 7 is pretty important. We lowered the Contempt for this stage because the average opponent rating is higher than the last stage. Using a higher Contempt would have encouraged Komodo to try to avoid draws harder, and to keep more pieces on the board at some sacrifice of positional play. Dynamism also was wrong and our testing showed in Komodo 10.1, the higher setting was better.IanO wrote:The differences can be found in the initial game comment.carldaman wrote:What was wrong with Komodo's settings? People should at least be entitled to a proper explanation by the organizers.
Before:After:Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Use Syzygy=true; Syzygy Probe Depth=2; Syzygy Probe Limit=6; Dynamism=110;
To summarize, removing custom Syzygy probe options and "Dynamism" (whatever that is), and adding Contempt 7.Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Contempt=7;
It would be nice to hear from Mark what the effects of these changes are likely to be.
TCEC has been very accurate at settings in the past, but we are all only human and some errors can occur. When they are found it should be corrected and replayed, which is what they did, and swiftly too.
There will be lots of games in this Stage.
The fact that he did not send a new version earlier does not mean that he had not a new version.
For example it is possible that he did not send a new version because he was not sure that his version is stable with 20 cores or because he knew it was not stable and there are bugs that he need to fix after changing the code in order to earn more from many cores.
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Re: TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
Why run TCEC at all then? Let's just have Adam list the final rankings and save a lot of time, effort and electricity.APassionForCriminalJustic wrote:we all know that Komodo is stronger... get some brains...
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Re: TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
If you're saying that changing the result in the whole stage by 13 Elo points is a big thing, you're contravening your own argument.Laskos wrote:To see how disproportionate the action to replay the game is, for at most 5-10 ELO points loss in ONE game, they changed the result in the whole Stage 3 by 1 point between Komodo and Houdini, and that in 56 games each amounts to 13 ELO points in the WHOLE stage.
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- Full name: Kai Laskos
Re: TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
With your usual "we do not know anything" are you sure you usually see something at all? One can try to see things by a rough estimate. The drawelo here is about 250 ELO points, and if the differnce from best settings is 5 ELO points, then we have 98% that the wrong settings did not affect the result. Only if the wrong settings are affecting by an order of 250 ELO points Komodo, we can say that probably this was the cause for the loss. Is it plausible?Uri Blass wrote:I do not think that we know the elo loss at long time control and there is no basis to claim that the wrong setting is not the reason for the lost game.Laskos wrote:The values "Before" were close to to optimal. The ELO loss was no larger than 5-10 ELO points and hardly the reason for the lost game. Seems unfair to Houdini to replay the game.IanO wrote:The differences can be found in the initial game comment.carldaman wrote:What was wrong with Komodo's settings? People should at least be entitled to a proper explanation by the organizers.
Before:After:Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Use Syzygy=true; Syzygy Probe Depth=2; Syzygy Probe Limit=6; Dynamism=110;
To summarize, removing custom Syzygy probe options and "Dynamism" (whatever that is), and adding Contempt 7.Code: Select all
BlackEngineOptions: Contempt=7;
It would be nice to hear from Mark what the effects of these changes are likely to be.
I see nothing unfair for Houdini.
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- Posts: 10948
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:21 pm
- Full name: Kai Laskos
Re: TCEC stage 3 , New Houdini starts with a bang
The point you apparently missed was that a 5 ELO points mistake in a SINGLE game resulted in a 13 ELO points mistake for the whole stage.Branko Radovanovic wrote:If you're saying that changing the result in the whole stage by 13 Elo points is a big thing, you're contravening your own argument.Laskos wrote:To see how disproportionate the action to replay the game is, for at most 5-10 ELO points loss in ONE game, they changed the result in the whole Stage 3 by 1 point between Komodo and Houdini, and that in 56 games each amounts to 13 ELO points in the WHOLE stage.