To MODERATORS: Please STOP moving genuine tournaments!

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CRoberson
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by CRoberson » Fri May 27, 2016 3:08 pm

Graham Banks wrote:
...

I doubt that it will cause any hardship at all. Let's wait and see how the field compares with last year.
Component oriented thinking isn't going to work here. The post is a "call for participants" and it was moved last year and I think it was moved in
2014 which was our record lowest participation. Last year, I put some extra effort in hunting new email addresses and some of them participated.
Thanks to this mess, I'll likely put a day or two of extra work into it again. So, an increase in the participation levels will not prove anything about the sticky.

Dann Corbit
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri May 27, 2016 5:00 pm

You have a right to ask for these things, and there is nothing wrong in your asking for them.

The moderators can choose to follow your wishes or not.
If you do not like the moderators choice, you can continue the debate.
If the forum agrees with you, they will apply social pressure or replace them.
Personally, I genuinely do not understand why you find it upsetting that tournaments are moved to the tournaments folder.

You can, for instance, open a window to the tournaments folder and set the threaded setting to not threaded and bookmark it. Then just leave it open in a browser tab. Then, if you should want to know what tournaments are happening, just click that tab. A single click.

On the other hand, if it really does bother you, then there is no reason you should not ask for change. I just do not understand your reservations and grief over what seems to be such a simple thing.

But everyone is different. If it really does bother you then it really does bother you. That is not strange or wrong on your part even if it seems strange to me. It only means that we disagree about it.

As for the ICGA, I do think that they have always been disconnected from reality in various harmless ways like not following their own charter. However, I think they acted outrageously in the case of Vas, and Fide did in fact censor them for it.

I think that the panel that acted against Vas was innocent in their actions to this extent:
They were asked to do something legal and they did not have legal subpoena power, legal understanding or proper knowledge of legal precedent.
However, I have so many problems with what happened and in particular with the severity of the actions against Vas and further with the new information that came out not softening the stance of committee members. To me, the wrongdoing came to be when new light was shed and everyone dug their toes in and pretended there was nothing different and did not soften their stance.
But we will never settle this, so I guess it is pointless to debate it. And if the debate should renew, it should be in the engines origin forum so that people who don't want to rehash it again won't have to listen to the whole thing all over again.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Adam Hair
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Adam Hair » Fri May 27, 2016 6:18 pm

CRoberson wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
...

I doubt that it will cause any hardship at all. Let's wait and see how the field compares with last year.
Component oriented thinking isn't going to work here. The post is a "call for participants" and it was moved last year and I think it was moved in
2014 which was our record lowest participation. Last year, I put some extra effort in hunting new email addresses and some of them participated.
Thanks to this mess, I'll likely put a day or two of extra work into it again. So, an increase in the participation levels will not prove anything about the sticky.
The announcement remained in the General forum in 2014.

bob
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Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: To MODERATORS: Please CONTINUE moving tournaments!

Post by bob » Fri May 27, 2016 6:32 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote: WCCC/WMCCC is a European championship.
When did komodo become a European engine?
Sounds like someone who would like an important sounding sticker on his box.

There is an exception to every rule. A cameo by Komodo fits that bill.

Here are the most recent entrants:

Code: Select all

1	Jonny	flag DEU	2,400 cores, 2,376 threads, AMD x86-64, 2.8 GHz	7.0	8	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Komodo	flag USA	24 cores, 24 threads, Intel i7	6.5	8	Second Place
3	Hiarcs	flag GBR	28 threads, Intel Xeon E5-2697, 2.8 GHz	5.0	8	Third Place
4	Protector	flag DEU	8 cores, 15 threads, Intel i7 5690x, 4 GHz	5.0	8	
5	Shredder	flag DEU	16 cores, 16 threads, Intel i7	4.5	8	
6	Ginkgo	flag DEU	6 cores, 6 threads, Intel i5	4.0	8	
7	The Baron	flag NLD	16 cores, 16 threads, Intel E5-2687w, 3.1 GHz	3.0	8	
8	Maverick	flag USA	1 thread, Intel i7, 2.8 GHz	1.0	8	
9	Fridolin	flag DEU	4 cores, 7 threads, Intel i7	0.0	8	
1	Junior	flag ISR	Dual 12 core Intel Xenon I5 2.7 GHz	7.5	10	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Jonny	flag DEU	2400 core AMD 2.8 GHz	7.0	10	Second Place
3	Pandix	flag HUN	I7-3740, 2.7 GHz, 16 GB RAM	5.5	10	Third Place
3	Hiarcs	flag GBR	16 core Intel Xenon E5 3.1 GHz	5.5	10	Third Place
5	Shredder	flag DEU	16 core Intel 3.1 GHz	4.5	10	
6	Merlin (hu)	flag HUN	I7-3740, 2.7 GHz, 16 GB RAM	0.0	10	
1	Junior	flag ISR	16 core i7 Sandybridge	6.0	8	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Shredder	flag DEU		5.5	8	Second Place
2	Hiarcs	flag GBR	12 core i7 Nehalem	5.5	8	Second Place
4	Pandix	flag HUN		5.0	8	
4	Jonny	flag DEU	800 core cluster	5.0	8	
6	The Baron	flag NLD	8 core i7 Nehalem	4.5	8	
7	Booot	flag UKR		3.0	8	
8	Rookie 3.4	flag NLD		1.5	8	
9	Woodpusher 1997	flag GBR		0.0	8	
1	Rybka	flag USA	Intel Cluster run by Lukas Cimiotti	8.0	9	Disqualified
2	Rondo	flag USA		6.5	9	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Thinker	flag USA		6.5	9	World Computer Chess Champion
4	Shredder	flag DEU		6.0	9	Third Place
5	Jonny	flag DEU	Cluster	5.5	9	
6	Pandix Breakthrough	flag HUN	loan hardware	5.0	9	
7	Deep Junior	flag ISR		4.0	9	
8	Darmenios	flag POL		2.0	9	
9	Fridolin	flag DEU		1.0	9	
10	Hector for Chess	flag HUN		0.5	9	
Boiled down to individual engines:
Woodpusher
Thinker
The
Shredder
Rybka
Rookie
Rondo
Protector
Pandix
Merlin
Maverick
Komodo
Junior
Jonny
Hiarcs
Hector
Ginkgo
Fridolin
Darmenios
Booot

Considering the CCRL 40/40 measurements, these are the top 20 engines:
Texel
Strelka
Stockfish
Rybka
Protector
NirvanaChess
Naum
Komodo
Houdini
Hannibal
Gull
Fritz
Fizbo
Fire
Equinox
Critter
Chiron
Bouquet
BlackMamba
Andscacs
Alfil

And what is missing from the ICGA list?
Answer: Most of the programs from the second list.
And why don't they participate?
Because the contest is meaningless unless you want a fancy, false sticker on your box.
You should stop with the insulting crap. Do you realize how many clones are on your "preferred list"?

Strelka, Houdini and fire stand out. There are probably others. This is why WE (the ICGA membership / participants) choose who gets to enter.

If you don't like the ICGA, nobody has forced you to join. But you sound like a bitter complainer and nothing else with these kinds of posts. Particularly when you are clueless about which are original and which are not.
What have I said that is insulting?

Houdini and Fire are well accepted by the community at large.

But if we remove those three strong engines, my points all stand, completely unaltered.

A FIDE chess championship without :

Code: Select all

Rank	Name	Title	Country	Rating	Games	B-Year
 1	 Carlsen, Magnus	 g	 NOR	 2851	 0	 1990
 2	 Caruana, Fabiano	 g	 USA	 2804	 11	 1992
 3	 Kramnik, Vladimir	 g	 RUS	 2801	 0	 1975
 4	 Giri, Anish	 g	 NED	 2790	 0	 1994
 5	 Vachier-Lagrave, Maxime	 g	 FRA	 2788	 0	 1990
 6	 Nakamura, Hikaru	 g	 USA	 2787	 11	 1987
 7	 Aronian, Levon	 g	 ARM	 2784	 0	 1982
 8	 Karjakin, Sergey	 g	 RUS	 2779	 0	 1990
 9	 Ding, Liren	 g	 CHN	 2778	 4	 1992
 10	 So, Wesley	 g	 USA	 2775	 11	 1993
 11	 Anand, Viswanathan	 g	 IND	 2770	 0	 1969
 12	 Eljanov, Pavel	 g	 UKR	 2765	 0	 1983
 13	 Harikrishna, P.	 g	 IND	 2763	 0	 1986
 14	 Svidler, Peter	 g	 RUS	 2762	 0	 1976
 15	 Li, Chao b	 g	 CHN	 2756	 4	 1989
 16	 Topalov, Veselin	 g	 BUL	 2754	 0	 1975
 17	 Grischuk, Alexander	 g	 RUS	 2752	 0	 1983
 18	 Mamedyarov, Shakhriyar	 g	 AZE	 2748	 4	 1985
 19	 Gelfand, Boris	 g	 ISR	 2740	 0	 1968
 20	 Yu, Yangyi	 g	 CHN	 2737	 3	 1994
would hardly be a championship.
First, this:
Sounds like someone who would like an important sounding sticker on his box.
You don't think that is insulting? It is a direct insult.
(Ecclesiastes 7:9) Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones.

Everyone who knows anything about chess knows that the recent ICGA "championships" carry less weight than Joe's garage tournament.

Second, houdini, et. al. are NOT "accepted by the community". They are accepted by a small group, including yourself, but they are non-original.
They are accepted by all sensible persons.
Your human world championship is pure nonsense since we don't clone humans.
Non-sequitor
You DO realize that houdini and fire have NEVER applied to attend the WCCC? How would you make them? They have not applied to enter anything. They just get picked up and entered by those that don't object to clones/derivatives.
They do play in the real championship, TCEC.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1965 ... andmasters
http://www.i-programmer.info/news/105-a ... again.html
http://blog.chabris.com/2015/01/martin- ... chess.html
Everyone seems to realize this.
Follow the events you like. Stop denigrating one that has a rule you don't like. It is not going to change anything unless the WCCC participants decide to change the rules. So far, that has not even been discussed, much less actually happened.
What is the rule that I don't like?
BTW I seem to remember a FIDE WC event without Kasparov. You remember that I assume? It happens.
Sure, take out one person for political reasons. But, say 17 of the top 20 and it seems to lose even more logic. In the championship won by Alexander Khalifman, at least most of the top players participated.
Finally that "false" sticker is not false. This is, and has been the official world championship tournament since 1974. 42 years and counting. Claiming to have won that event is _NOT_ "false".
Claiming to be a championship when the best do not participate is nothing less than a lie. You seem to be comfortable with it, though.
There are so many things wrong with your post, and yet you tell ME "you are a criminal and belong in jail"???
Your actions towards Vas were orders of magnitude more criminal than anything he has ever done.
I don't think you even grasp the topic at all.
One of us is confused
My actions toward Vas simply HELPED expose a rule violation that should not have happened. Nothing more, nothing less. BTW feel free to cite any specific criminal statute I have supposedly broken.

Why don't you poll the PROGRAMMERS here to see how many accept Houdini as an original program? Ditto for Strelka. Ditto for fire and friends. And I am sure you would also include Sugar and the many stockfish derivatives as well...

You WILL be surprised.

bob
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by bob » Fri May 27, 2016 6:37 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:You have a right to ask for these things, and there is nothing wrong in your asking for them.

The moderators can choose to follow your wishes or not.
If you do not like the moderators choice, you can continue the debate.
If the forum agrees with you, they will apply social pressure or replace them.
Personally, I genuinely do not understand why you find it upsetting that tournaments are moved to the tournaments folder.

You can, for instance, open a window to the tournaments folder and set the threaded setting to not threaded and bookmark it. Then just leave it open in a browser tab. Then, if you should want to know what tournaments are happening, just click that tab. A single click.

On the other hand, if it really does bother you, then there is no reason you should not ask for change. I just do not understand your reservations and grief over what seems to be such a simple thing.

But everyone is different. If it really does bother you then it really does bother you. That is not strange or wrong on your part even if it seems strange to me. It only means that we disagree about it.

As for the ICGA, I do think that they have always been disconnected from reality in various harmless ways like not following their own charter. However, I think they acted outrageously in the case of Vas, and Fide did in fact censor them for it.

I think that the panel that acted against Vas was innocent in their actions to this extent:
They were asked to do something legal and they did not have legal subpoena power, legal understanding or proper knowledge of legal precedent.
However, I have so many problems with what happened and in particular with the severity of the actions against Vas and further with the new information that came out not softening the stance of committee members. To me, the wrongdoing came to be when new light was shed and everyone dug their toes in and pretended there was nothing different and did not soften their stance.
But we will never settle this, so I guess it is pointless to debate it. And if the debate should renew, it should be in the engines origin forum so that people who don't want to rehash it again won't have to listen to the whole thing all over again.
Let's correct this GROSS exaggeration (FIDE censored them...). The ONLY complaint FIDE had was that our rules did not specify any sort of punishment for violating said rules. They specifically said our investigation was proper and that we (the ICGA) had full responsibility for enforcing our rules and that we had done absolutely nothing wrong in the investigation. They asked us to amend our rules to specify a punishment, of which a lifetime ban would be perfectly acceptable, to make it clear what could happen. We had not done that and in fact MANY organizations don't have such a written policy either. There is no legal requirement to have such a stipulation in a private organization.

bob
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by bob » Fri May 27, 2016 6:39 pm

Adam Hair wrote:
CRoberson wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
...

I doubt that it will cause any hardship at all. Let's wait and see how the field compares with last year.
Component oriented thinking isn't going to work here. The post is a "call for participants" and it was moved last year and I think it was moved in
2014 which was our record lowest participation. Last year, I put some extra effort in hunting new email addresses and some of them participated.
Thanks to this mess, I'll likely put a day or two of extra work into it again. So, an increase in the participation levels will not prove anything about the sticky.
The announcement remained in the General forum in 2014.
Then doesn't that beg the question, "why has this changed in 2016?" No vote was held by the membership to change anything...

Adam Hair
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Adam Hair » Fri May 27, 2016 8:27 pm

bob wrote:
Adam Hair wrote:
CRoberson wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
...

I doubt that it will cause any hardship at all. Let's wait and see how the field compares with last year.
Component oriented thinking isn't going to work here. The post is a "call for participants" and it was moved last year and I think it was moved in
2014 which was our record lowest participation. Last year, I put some extra effort in hunting new email addresses and some of them participated.
Thanks to this mess, I'll likely put a day or two of extra work into it again. So, an increase in the participation levels will not prove anything about the sticky.
The announcement remained in the General forum in 2014.
Then doesn't that beg the question, "why has this changed in 2016?" No vote was held by the membership to change anything...
There is no mechanism for the members to directly change anything about CCC other than our moderators. Instead, we vote for a 3 member panel of moderators to act in the best interest of the forum. CCC is the preeminent forum for computer chess and the moderators should always keep that in mind, but they are put in charge of the forum, not computer chess. If the moderators think they can improve the function of the forum without irreparably damaging this hobby, then they should do it.

Let me state that no one has shown that moving the announcements to the T&M subforum and making them sticky upon request has hurt the author participation tournaments. If that can be shown, then an immediate remedy will be needed. But so far there has just been bellowing from people who do not want to make a simple change in their forum viewing habits.

Adam Hair
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Adam Hair » Fri May 27, 2016 8:35 pm

hgm wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:You are over-reacting again.
Not at all, it is you who wants to play down the problem.
The event hasn't even happened yet, so how can anybody know the effect that having a stickied thread in the tournament subforum will have on numbers?
I know MY forum behavior, which is never to look in the T&M section. I know for certain I would have remained completely unaware of the ACCA event if I had not been so lucky as to see the announcement before it was moved (and if it was not for this thread). I know that when the General Topics and Programming sections would be kept scrupulously clean of such announcements I would never notice them with my current forum use. I know that to stand a chance to see them I would from now on change that behavior in a way that for me is an unacceptable burden, opening a sticky thread in a forum section I don't want to visit.

Is this too hard to understand for you?

Other prospective participants have stated exactly the same; this is not just my problem. The only persons that defend this moderator vandalism are persons that are not affected by it, or have an interest in destroying participation events.

In other words, the moderators are standing on my toes.
And taking that into account, how can I be accusing anybody of being liars when the event hasn't even happened yet?
If the field turns out to be the same or larger than last year, I wonder whether you'll apologise for being wrong and accusing me of all sorts of horrible things.
Certainly not. Because it would just mean that those participants must have done the extra unnecessary work of digging through the a forum section they have no interest in, on a daily basis. So the damage would still be done.

"You are standing on my toes, and it hurts!"

Graham: "Well, never mind. You cannot know if it will still hurt tomorrow. Just wait" <doesn't budge>
Your toes have been stepped on, so that justifies this gross exaggration?

Where does this sick desire to hurt others at no benefit to yourself suddenly come from?

Your reaction has not been commensurate to the moderators' action.

mar
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Full name: Martin Sedlak

Re: To MODERATORS: Please STOP moving genuine tournaments!

Post by mar » Fri May 27, 2016 8:47 pm

Dokterchen wrote:I don't know what is wrong with moderation recently, but please stop moving genuine tournaments like Leiden, IGT and ACCA to the Tournaments and Matches section.
Absolutely, buying food in grocery store is a bad idea.
Much better is to go to tobacco shop.

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Graham Banks
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Graham Banks » Fri May 27, 2016 10:44 pm

CRoberson wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
...

I doubt that it will cause any hardship at all. Let's wait and see how the field compares with last year.
Component oriented thinking isn't going to work here. The post is a "call for participants" and it was moved last year and I think it was moved in
2014 which was our record lowest participation. Last year, I put some extra effort in hunting new email addresses and some of them participated.
Thanks to this mess, I'll likely put a day or two of extra work into it again. So, an increase in the participation levels will not prove anything about the sticky.
Perhaps the mods could consider putting an announcement or sticky thread in this forum, indicating that all tournament announcements can now be found in the tournaments subforum?

That way, anybody visiting the general subforum has no excuse for not knowing.

In combination with stickying major events for an appropriate time in the tournament subforum, the organisers of such tournaments get much better exposure in here than ever before.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

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