Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Dann Corbit, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
User avatar
Don
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:27 pm

Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by Don » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:32 pm

lucasart wrote:
ethanara wrote: [d]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq
In this position my engine DoubleCheck 2.5.4 prefers Nf3 and thinks the position is very equal. Critter 1.4 agrees, even after a long time of analysis. It may seem a little counter intuitive to allow ..Ng4, but after Nf3 and Ng4 the best response according to both engines is simply Qe2
Although I prefer Rf1 from Ansari instead which is a more human move, and easier to play/understand.
Komodo also thinks the positions are very nearly equal, but after 5. f4 Komodo thinks black has a much better games. In fact Komodo see's this as 1/2 pawn advantage for black. I don't know if that means it's almost losing or not, but it's pretty serious disadvantage, especially when you are playing the white pieces and it's this early in the game.

Komodo is so happy that he doesn't know for sure which line to pursue after 5. f4. Depending on depth he has considered Ng4, O-O, c6 and Nc6. Komodo has just changed (once again) to Ng4 after 22 ply search.

User avatar
lucasart
Posts: 3198
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 11:29 am
Full name: lucasart
Contact:

Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by lucasart » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:35 pm

ethanara wrote:
I wish you good luck with this opening, because it seems double-edged from my patzer POV.
I (1200-1300) have played this everytime i can with white, my 2200+ trainer too.
I never came in bad positions as white, quite opposite. I once won against one of the best in my group in scholastic chess after 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2 7. Qh5 O-O?? And i won in few moves.
Playing against a computer is not the best way to improve your chess. It may be very misleading, because this f4 move is certainly suboptimal, but your 2200(??) elo trainer must have some severe bug to lose this position with black (where he already has a significant edge) against a 1200-1300 player.
You should play on internet against human player of the same strength as you. Although a few games against computers every now and then is always good to teach you to be more precise and tactics that 1200-1300 elo players won't probably see.

User avatar
lucasart
Posts: 3198
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 11:29 am
Full name: lucasart
Contact:

Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by lucasart » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:38 pm

Don wrote:
lucasart wrote:
ethanara wrote: [d]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq
In this position my engine DoubleCheck 2.5.4 prefers Nf3 and thinks the position is very equal. Critter 1.4 agrees, even after a long time of analysis. It may seem a little counter intuitive to allow ..Ng4, but after Nf3 and Ng4 the best response according to both engines is simply Qe2
Although I prefer Rf1 from Ansari instead which is a more human move, and easier to play/understand.
Komodo also thinks the positions are very nearly equal, but after 5. f4 Komodo thinks black has a much better games. In fact Komodo see's this as 1/2 pawn advantage for black. I don't know if that means it's almost losing or not, but it's pretty serious disadvantage, especially when you are playing the white pieces and it's this early in the game.

Komodo is so happy that he doesn't know for sure which line to pursue after 5. f4. Depending on depth he has considered Ng4, O-O, c6 and Nc6. Komodo has just changed (once again) to Ng4 after 22 ply search.
Yes, I think any good program will agree with that. f4 is a bad move, and gives black a significant edge after only 5 moves... not a good idea.

my engine DoubleCheck is really focused on Ng4 right from the early depths of searches. And it certainly makes to play this as black gets a good initiative and white is under some strong pressure already

User avatar
Don
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:27 pm

Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by Don » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:41 pm

ethanara wrote:
I wish you good luck with this opening, because it seems double-edged from my patzer POV.
I (1200-1300) have played this everytime i can with white, my 2200+ trainer too.
I never came in bad positions as white, quite opposite. I once won against one of the best in my group in scholastic chess after 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2 7. Qh5 O-O?? And i won in few moves.
You probably did well here because 6... Nf2 is a poor way for black to proceed.

How does white respond to 6... Bf2+ ?

zullil
Posts: 6442
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by zullil » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:35 pm

lucasart wrote:
zullil wrote: The first diagram is wrong. White has just played f4 and so it's black's move. What's best then for black here:
[D]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq f3 0 5
You're right Louis!

Ethan,
Are you sure this position is theory ? It seems already incorrect, and after 5 moves black has a significant edge here with Ng4...
Based on lengthy searches from top engines, I'm not sure about "significant" here.

User avatar
OliverUwira
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:57 am
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Contact:

Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by OliverUwira » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:31 pm

zullil wrote:
lucasart wrote:
zullil wrote: The first diagram is wrong. White has just played f4 and so it's black's move. What's best then for black here:
[D]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq f3 0 5
You're right Louis!

Ethan,
Are you sure this position is theory ? It seems already incorrect, and after 5 moves black has a significant edge here with Ng4...
Based on lengthy searches from top engines, I'm not sure about "significant" here.
No significant edge, but easy equality. That is, if black proceeds positionally. There are traps to fall for if black gets too greedy over the board.

User avatar
Don
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:27 pm

Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by Don » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:30 pm

OliverUwira wrote:
zullil wrote:
lucasart wrote:
zullil wrote: The first diagram is wrong. White has just played f4 and so it's black's move. What's best then for black here:
[D]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq f3 0 5
You're right Louis!

Ethan,
Are you sure this position is theory ? It seems already incorrect, and after 5 moves black has a significant edge here with Ng4...
Based on lengthy searches from top engines, I'm not sure about "significant" here.
No significant edge, but easy equality. That is, if black proceeds positionally. There are traps to fall for if black gets too greedy over the board.
It depends on your definition of "significant" :)

After 5. f4 I don't think it's a question of whether black can obtain equality, it's now a question of whether white can.

User avatar
OliverUwira
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:57 am
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Contact:

Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by OliverUwira » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:56 pm

Don wrote:
OliverUwira wrote:
zullil wrote:
lucasart wrote:
zullil wrote: The first diagram is wrong. White has just played f4 and so it's black's move. What's best then for black here:
[D]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq f3 0 5
You're right Louis!

Ethan,
Are you sure this position is theory ? It seems already incorrect, and after 5 moves black has a significant edge here with Ng4...
Based on lengthy searches from top engines, I'm not sure about "significant" here.
No significant edge, but easy equality. That is, if black proceeds positionally. There are traps to fall for if black gets too greedy over the board.
It depends on your definition of "significant" :)

After 5. f4 I don't think it's a question of whether black can obtain equality, it's now a question of whether white can.
Well, don't forget that White is not the only one who played unnatural moves in the line 5...Ng4 6. f5 h5 7. Nh3 - therefore I don't see why equality should be significantly disturbed.

From a strategic point of view only 7...Qh4+ 8. Kf1 Ne3+ 9. Bxe3 Bxe3 is critical but as I said earlier white can dodge this with 10. Nd5

However as all this is only my lousy FM point of view, it would be great to have Larry's opinion on this position. :D

EDIT: A small addition - white controls d5 pretty well so f4 is a strategically desirable move. However it exposes the king and f2 - if black can't exploit this in a meaningful manner, white shouldn't do too badly.

User avatar
Don
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:27 pm

Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by Don » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:02 pm

OliverUwira wrote:
Don wrote:
OliverUwira wrote:
zullil wrote:
lucasart wrote:
zullil wrote: The first diagram is wrong. White has just played f4 and so it's black's move. What's best then for black here:
[D]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq f3 0 5
You're right Louis!

Ethan,
Are you sure this position is theory ? It seems already incorrect, and after 5 moves black has a significant edge here with Ng4...
Based on lengthy searches from top engines, I'm not sure about "significant" here.
No significant edge, but easy equality. That is, if black proceeds positionally. There are traps to fall for if black gets too greedy over the board.
It depends on your definition of "significant" :)

After 5. f4 I don't think it's a question of whether black can obtain equality, it's now a question of whether white can.
Well, don't forget that White is not the only one who played unnatural moves in the line 5...Ng4 6. f5 h5 7. Nh3 - therefore I don't see why equality should be significantly disturbed.

From a strategic point of view only 7...Qh4+ 8. Kf1 Ne3+ 9. Bxe3 Bxe3 is critical but as I said earlier white can dodge this with 10. Nd5

However as all this is only my lousy FM point of view, it would be great to have Larry's opinion on this position. :D
Larry's opinion would be good here. I'm basically saying that I believe after 1. f4 black already has a definite advantage. Probably not overwhelming but it's like white and black traded sides and now white is trying to equalize. Perhaps Larry will weigh in with an opinion.

User avatar
OliverUwira
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:57 am
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Contact:

Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by OliverUwira » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:54 am

Don wrote:
OliverUwira wrote:
Don wrote:
OliverUwira wrote:
zullil wrote:
lucasart wrote:
zullil wrote: The first diagram is wrong. White has just played f4 and so it's black's move. What's best then for black here:
[D]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq f3 0 5
You're right Louis!

Ethan,
Are you sure this position is theory ? It seems already incorrect, and after 5 moves black has a significant edge here with Ng4...
Based on lengthy searches from top engines, I'm not sure about "significant" here.
No significant edge, but easy equality. That is, if black proceeds positionally. There are traps to fall for if black gets too greedy over the board.
It depends on your definition of "significant" :)

After 5. f4 I don't think it's a question of whether black can obtain equality, it's now a question of whether white can.
Well, don't forget that White is not the only one who played unnatural moves in the line 5...Ng4 6. f5 h5 7. Nh3 - therefore I don't see why equality should be significantly disturbed.

From a strategic point of view only 7...Qh4+ 8. Kf1 Ne3+ 9. Bxe3 Bxe3 is critical but as I said earlier white can dodge this with 10. Nd5

However as all this is only my lousy FM point of view, it would be great to have Larry's opinion on this position. :D
Larry's opinion would be good here. I'm basically saying that I believe after 1. f4 black already has a definite advantage. Probably not overwhelming but it's like white and black traded sides and now white is trying to equalize. Perhaps Larry will weigh in with an opinion.
I hope you will point him to this thread :D

Positions like this are quite important for computer chess because the white pawn chain after f4-f5 is a long term feature that likely is beyond the search horizon of current engines.

It is also very difficult to carry out the thematic d6-d5 break here and if black isn't careful he will be squeezed on the kingside. Black needs to create something before white is able to push back black as in e.g. 5...Ng4 6. f5 h5 7. Nh3 c6 8. Qf3 when white would be ready for Ng5 followed by h3.

Plans like those are dangerous for engines if the push back can be delayed by tactical threats that white has to address before returning to his positional plan.

Post Reply