Hi, I notice that all strong engine have no problem in reaching the correct solution for WAC number 2 in less than a second:
8/7p/5k2/5p2/p1p2P2/Pr1pPK2/1P1R3P/8 b - - bm b3b2;
My engine uses much more time on this problem, because it has to search quite deep to find the solution.
I'm wondering if this is a problem which should be solved through more use of extensions (I'm using check extensions today), or should it be solved in the quiescent search or should the evalution function be able to value the position high enough before the pawns have queened?
Regards
Jacob Børs Lind
Question regarding WAC number 2
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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Re: Question regarding WAC number 2
xpdnt finds it in 5 second on a 2Ghz machine.
It uses only check extension.
but ...
It does NOT reduce passer moves to 6th and 7th rank. And,
It also gives bonus to 'connected passers' in eval.
'pawns on the 6th rank beat a rook' - W.JORDAN MELBOURNE 1997
It uses only check extension.
but ...
It does NOT reduce passer moves to 6th and 7th rank. And,
It also gives bonus to 'connected passers' in eval.
'pawns on the 6th rank beat a rook' - W.JORDAN MELBOURNE 1997
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Re: Question regarding WAC number 2
I notice that not all the strong engines do itjacobbl wrote:Hi, I notice that all strong engine have no problem in reaching the correct solution for WAC number 2 in less than a second:
8/7p/5k2/5p2/p1p2P2/Pr1pPK2/1P1R3P/8 b - - bm b3b2;
My engine uses much more time on this problem, because it has to search quite deep to find the solution.
I'm wondering if this is a problem which should be solved through more use of extensions (I'm using check extensions today), or should it be solved in the quiescent search or should the evalution function be able to value the position high enough before the pawns have queened?
Regards
Jacob Børs Lind
stockfish1.9 needs depth 21 and 8 seconds probably because it does too much pruning.
New game
8/7p/5k2/5p2/p1p2P2/Pr1pPK2/1P1R3P/8 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Stockfish 1.9 JA:
1...Rb3-b8
µ (-1.37) Depth: 1 00:00:00
1...Rb3-b7 2.e3-e4
µ (-1.21) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1...Rb3-b7 2.e3-e4 Kf6-e6
µ (-1.21) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1...Kf6-e6 2.e3-e4 Rb3-b8
µ (-1.25) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1...Kf6-e6 2.e3-e4 Rb3-b8 3.e4-e5
µ (-1.17) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3
µ (-1.29) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3
µ (-1.29) Depth: 5 00:00:00
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3
µ (-1.13) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3
µ (-1.13) Depth: 6 00:00:00 2kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4
µ (-1.09) Depth: 6 00:00:00 2kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.f4-f5+ Ke6-f6
µ (-1.09) Depth: 7 00:00:00 5kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.f4-f5+ Ke6-f6
µ (-1.21) Depth: 8 00:00:00 7kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.f4-f5+ Ke6-f6
µ (-1.09) Depth: 8 00:00:00 8kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.f4-f5+ Ke6-f6
µ (-1.17) Depth: 9 00:00:00 10kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.f4-f5+ Ke6-f6
µ (-1.25) Depth: 9 00:00:00 11kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 Kf6-e6 5.e4-e5 Ra3-b3 6.Rd2xd3 Rb3xd3+ 7.Ke3xd3 a4-a3
-+ (-1.41) Depth: 9 00:00:01 12kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.Rd2xd3 Ra3xd3 7.Ke4xd3 a4-a3
-+ (-1.73) Depth: 9 00:00:01 14kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.Rd2xd3 Ra3xd3 7.Ke4xd3 a4-a3 8.Kd3-c4 Ke6-f6
-+ (-1.73) Depth: 9 00:00:01 15kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.Rd2xd3 Ra3xd3 7.Ke4xd3 a4-a3 8.Kd3-c3 Ke6-f6 9.Kc3-b3
µ (-1.09) Depth: 10 00:00:01 21kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.Rd2-d1 Ra3-b3 7.Rd1xd3 Rb3xd3 8.Ke4xd3 a4-a3 9.Kd3-c3 Ke6-f6 10.Kc3-b3
µ (-1.13) Depth: 10 00:00:01 27kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.Rd2xd3 Ra3xd3 7.Ke4xd3 a4-a3 8.Kd3-c3 a3-a2 9.Kc3-b2 Ke6-f5 10.Kb2xa2 Kf5xf4
³ (-0.68) Depth: 11 00:00:01 59kN
1...Kf6-e6 2.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 3.Kf3xe4 Rb3-b8 4.Ke4-d4 Rb8-c8 5.Kd4-e4 Ke6-f6 6.h2-h4 h7-h5 7.Rd2-g2 Rc8-e8+ 8.Ke4-d4 Re8-e2 9.Rg2-g1
µ (-1.05) Depth: 11 00:00:01 76kN
1...Kf6-e6 2.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 3.Kf3xe4 Rb3-b8 4.Ke4-d4 Rb8-c8 5.Kd4-e4 Rc8-f8 6.Rd2-d1 Ke6-d6 7.f4-f5 Kd6-c5 8.Rd1-d2 Rf8-e8+ 9.Ke4-f3 Kc5-d5 10.f5-f6 Re8-b8
µ (-0.96) Depth: 12 00:00:01 149kN
1...Rb3-b8 2.h2-h4 Rb8-b3 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Rb3-b8 5.Rd2-g2 Rb8-e8+ 6.Ke4-d4 Re8-e2 7.Rg2-g1 d3-d2 8.Rg1-d1 Kf6-f5 9.Kd4-c3
µ (-1.21) Depth: 12 00:00:01 218kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Rb7-b8 3.Rg2-d2 Rb8-e8 4.Rd2-d1 h7-h5 5.Rd1-c1 Re8-b8 6.Rc1xc4 Rb8xb2 7.Rc4-c6+ Kf6-e7
µ (-1.25) Depth: 12 00:00:01 256kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Rb7-b8 3.h2-h3 Rb8-b3 4.Rg2-d2 Rb3-b7 5.Rd2-g2 Rb7-g7 6.Rg2xg7 Kf6xg7 7.e3-e4 Kg7-f6 8.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 9.Ke3xe4
µ (-1.29) Depth: 13 00:00:01 323kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.h2-h4 Rb7-e7+ 6.Ke4-d4 Kf6-f5 7.Kd4xc4 Re7-e2 8.Rg2-g1 Kf5-e4 9.Rg1-d1 Re2-c2+ 10.Kc4-b4 Rc2xb2+ 11.Kb4xa4
µ (-1.37) Depth: 14 00:00:01 426kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Rd7-e7 8.Kc3xc4 Re7-e2 9.Rf2-f1 d3-d2 10.Rf1-d1 Kf5xf4 11.Kc4-d3
µ (-1.25) Depth: 15 00:00:01 598kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Rd7-e7 8.Kc3xc4 Re7-e2 9.Rf2-f1 d3-d2 10.Rf1-d1 Kf5xf4 11.Kc4-d3
-+ (-1.49) Depth: 15 00:00:02 727kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Kf5-e4 8.Rf2-f1 Rd7-b7 9.f4-f5 Ke4-d5 10.Rf1-b1 h7-h5
µ (-1.25) Depth: 15 00:00:02 736kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Kf5-e4 8.Rf2-f1 Rd7-b7 9.f4-f5 Ke4-d5 10.Rf1-b1 Rb7-b3+ 11.Kc3-d2 Kd5-e4
-+ (-1.41) Depth: 16 00:00:02 820kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Kf5-e4 8.Rf2-f1 Rd7-b7 9.f4-f5 Ke4-d5 10.Rf1-b1 Rb7-b3+ 11.Kc3-d2 Kd5-e4 12.Rb1-e1+ Ke4xf5 13.Re1-f1+ Kf5-e4 14.Rf1-e1+ Ke4-d4
-+ (-1.53) Depth: 16 00:00:02 951kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-e3 Rd7-e7+ 7.Ke3-f3 Re7-e1 8.h2-h4 Kf6-e6 9.h4-h5 Ke6-f6 10.h5-h6 Kf6-f5 11.Rg2-g5+ Kf5-e6 12.Rg5-g2 Ke6-d5 13.Rg2-d2
-+ (-1.65) Depth: 17 00:00:02 1407kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Kf5-e4 8.Rf2-f1 Rd7-b7 9.f4-f5 Ke4-d5 10.Rf1-b1 Rb7-b3+ 11.Kc3-d2 Kd5-e4 12.Rb1-e1+ Ke4xf5 13.Re1-f1+ Kf5-e4 14.Rf1-e1+ Ke4-d4
-+ (-1.53) Depth: 18 00:00:03 1715kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Kf5-e4 8.Rf2-f1 Rd7-b7 9.f4-f5 Ke4-d5 10.Rf1-b1 Rb7-b3+ 11.Kc3-d2 Kd5-e4 12.Rb1-e1+ Ke4xf5 13.Re1-f1+ Kf5-e4 14.Rf1-e1+ Ke4-d4
-+ (-1.73) Depth: 19 00:00:04 2426kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.h2-h3 Rb7-b3 4.Rg2-d2 Ke6-d5 5.Rd2-g2 c4-c3 6.b2xc3 Rb3xa3
-+ (-1.93) Depth: 19 00:00:04 3137kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.h2-h3 Rb7-g7 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Rg7-e7+ 5.Ke4-d4 Re7-e2 6.Kd4-c3 Re2-e4 7.Rd2-g2 Re4xf4 8.Rg2-g8 Kf6-e6 9.Rg8-c8 Ke6-d5 10.Rc8-d8+ Kd5-c5 11.Rd8-c8+ Kc5-b5 12.Rc8-b8+ Kb5-c6 13.Rb8-b4 Kc6-d5 14.Rb4xa4
-+ (-1.81) Depth: 19 00:00:04 3947kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 3.Kf3xe4 Rb7-e7+ 4.Ke4-d4 Re7-e2 5.Kd4-c3 Re2-e4 6.Rd2-g2 Re4xf4 7.Rg2-g8 Rf4-h4 8.Rg8-c8 Kf6-f5 9.Rc8-c7 Kf5-e6 10.h2-h3 Ke6-d5 11.Rc7-a7 Rh4-h6 12.Ra7xa4
-+ (-1.73) Depth: 20 00:00:05 5536kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 3.Kf3xe4 Rb7-e7+ 4.Ke4-d4 Re7-e2 5.Kd4-c3 Re2-e4 6.Rd2-g2 Re4xf4 7.Rg2-g8 Rf4-e4 8.Rg8-f8+ Kf6-g5 9.Rf8-c8 Kg5-f4
-+ (-1.97) Depth: 21 00:00:07 6858kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.h2-h3 Rb7-g7 3.Rd2-d1 Kf6-e6 4.h3-h4 Ke6-d5 5.Rd1-h1 Rg7-g6 6.Rh1-f1 Rg6-b6 7.Rf1-f2 Rb6-h6 8.Rf2-h2 Rh6-g6 9.Rh2-h1 h7-h6 10.Rh1-d1 Rg6-g8 11.Rd1-h1 Rg8-g7 12.h4-h5 Rg7-g8 13.Rh1-d1 Rg8-b8
-+ (-2.06) Depth: 21 00:00:08 7881kN
1...Rb3xb2 2.Rd2xb2 c4-c3 3.Rb2-b6+ Kf6-g7 4.Rb6-b7+ Kg7-h6 5.Rb7-b6+ Kh6-h5 6.Rb6-f6 c3-c2 7.Rf6xf5+ Kh5-h6 8.Rf5-f6+ Kh6-g7 9.Rf6-c6 d3-d2 10.Rc6-c7+ Kg7-h6
-+ (-2.22) Depth: 21 00:00:08 8758kN
1...Rb3xb2 2.Rd2xb2 c4-c3 3.Rb2-b6+ Kf6-g7 4.Rb6-b7+ Kg7-h6 5.Rb7-b6+ Kh6-h5 6.Rb6-f6 c3-c2 7.Rf6xf5+ Kh5-h6 8.Rf5-f6+ Kh6-g7 9.Rf6-c6 d3-d2 10.Rc6-c7+ Kg7-h6
-+ (-2.70) Depth: 21 00:00:09 9390kN
1...Rb3xb2 2.Rd2xb2 c4-c3 3.Rb2-b6+ Kf6-g7 4.Rb6-b7+ Kg7-h6 5.Rb7-b6+ Kh6-h5 6.Rb6-f6 c3-c2 7.Rf6xf5+ Kh5-h6 8.Rf5-f6+ Kh6-g7 9.Rf6-c6 d3-d2 10.Rc6-c7+ Kg7-h6 11.Rc7-c6+ Kh6-h5 12.Rc6-c5+ Kh5-h4 13.Rc5xc2 d2-d1Q+ 14.Rc2-e2 Qd1-d3
-+ (-3.67) Depth: 21 00:00:10 10403kN
(, 18.10.2010)
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Re: Question regarding WAC number 2
5 seconds is quite good. What depth do you need?
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- Posts: 20943
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:30 pm
- Location: Birmingham, AL
Re: Question regarding WAC number 2
Hard to say. First, here is current Crafty's output on my core-2 laptop:jacobbl wrote:Hi, I notice that all strong engine have no problem in reaching the correct solution for WAC number 2 in less than a second:
8/7p/5k2/5p2/p1p2P2/Pr1pPK2/1P1R3P/8 b - - bm b3b2;
My engine uses much more time on this problem, because it has to search quite deep to find the solution.
I'm wondering if this is a problem which should be solved through more use of extensions (I'm using check extensions today), or should it be solved in the quiescent search or should the evalution function be able to value the position high enough before the pawns have queened?
Regards
Jacob Børs Lind
Code: Select all
17 0.16 -1.33 1. ... c3 2. bxc3 Rxc3 3. Ra2 Rc2 4.
Ra1 Rb2 5. Rc1 Rb3 6. Rc6+ Ke7 7. Rc7+
Kd6 8. Rxh7 Rxa3 9. Rh8 Ra2 10. Rd8+
Kc5 11. Rxd3 Rxh2 (s=2)
17 0.22 -1 1. ... Rxb2!
17 0.23 -3 1. ... Rxb2!
17 0.31 -3.77 1. ... Rxb2 2. Rxb2 c3 3. Rb6+ Kg7
4. Rb7+ Kg6 5. Rb6+ Kh5 6. Rb5 c2 7.
Rxf5+ Kg6 8. Rg5+ Kf6 9. Rc5 d2 10.
Rc6+ Ke7 11. Rc7+ Kd6 12. Rxc2 d1=Q+
13. Re2 Qf1+ 14. Rf2
17-> 0.34 -3.77 1. ... Rxb2 2. Rxb2 c3 3. Rb6+ Kg7
4. Rb7+ Kg6 5. Rb6+ Kh5 6. Rb5 c2 7.
Rxf5+ Kg6 8. Rg5+ Kf6 9. Rc5 d2 10.
Rc6+ Ke7 11. Rc7+ Kd6 12. Rxc2 d1=Q+
13. Re2 Qf1+ 14. Rf2 (s=2)
18 0.41 -1 1. ... Rxb2!
18 0.64 -3 1. ... Rxb2!
18 0.81 -5.44 1. ... Rxb2 2. Rxb2 c3 3. Rb6+ Ke7
4. Rb7+ Kd6 5. Rb6+ Kc5 6. Rb1 c2 7.
Rc1 Kb5 8. Kf2 d2 9. Rxc2 d1=Q 10.
Rb2+ Kc4 11. Rb4+ Kc3 12. Rd4 Qc2+
13. Kg3
18-> 0.82 -5.44 1. ... Rxb2 2. Rxb2 c3 3. Rb6+ Ke7
4. Rb7+ Kd6 5. Rb6+ Kc5 6. Rb1 c2 7.
Rc1 Kb5 8. Kf2 d2 9. Rxc2 d1=Q 10.
Rb2+ Kc4 11. Rb4+ Kc3 12. Rd4 Qc2+
13. Kg3
19 1.06 -5.48 1. ... Rxb2 2. Rxb2 c3 3. Rb6+ Ke7
4. Rc6 c2 5. Kf2 d2 6. Rxc2 d1=Q 7.
Rc7+ Kd6 8. Rxh7 Qd2+ 9. Kf3 Qd5+ 10.
Kf2 Qa2+ 11. Kf3 Qxa3 12. h4 Qa2 13.
h5 Qd5+ 14. Ke2
Code: Select all
17 0.04 -1 1. ... Rxb2!
17 0.05 -3 1. ... Rxb2!
17 0.05 -M 1. ... Rxb2!
17 0.08 -5.21 1. ... Rxb2 2. Rxb2 c3 3. Rb6+ Ke7
4. Rb7+ Kd6 5. Rb6+ Kc7 6. Rb4 c2 7.
Rc4+ Kd7 8. Kf2 d2 9. Rxc2 d1=Q 10.
Rb2 Kc6 11. h4 Kc5
BTW search speed on my laptop is 6.5M nps for this position. The 8-core box is close to 30M.
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- Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
Re: Question regarding WAC number 2
Uri Blass wrote:I notice that not all the strong engines do itjacobbl wrote:Hi, I notice that all strong engine have no problem in reaching the correct solution for WAC number 2 in less than a second:
8/7p/5k2/5p2/p1p2P2/Pr1pPK2/1P1R3P/8 b - - bm b3b2;
My engine uses much more time on this problem, because it has to search quite deep to find the solution.
I'm wondering if this is a problem which should be solved through more use of extensions (I'm using check extensions today), or should it be solved in the quiescent search or should the evalution function be able to value the position high enough before the pawns have queened?
Regards
Jacob Børs Lind
stockfish1.9 needs depth 21 and 8 seconds probably because it does too much pruning.
New game
8/7p/5k2/5p2/p1p2P2/Pr1pPK2/1P1R3P/8 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Stockfish 1.9 JA:
1...Rb3-b8
µ (-1.37) Depth: 1 00:00:00
1...Rb3-b7 2.e3-e4
µ (-1.21) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1...Rb3-b7 2.e3-e4 Kf6-e6
µ (-1.21) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1...Kf6-e6 2.e3-e4 Rb3-b8
µ (-1.25) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1...Kf6-e6 2.e3-e4 Rb3-b8 3.e4-e5
µ (-1.17) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3
µ (-1.29) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3
µ (-1.29) Depth: 5 00:00:00
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3
µ (-1.13) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3
µ (-1.13) Depth: 6 00:00:00 2kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4
µ (-1.09) Depth: 6 00:00:00 2kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.f4-f5+ Ke6-f6
µ (-1.09) Depth: 7 00:00:00 5kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.f4-f5+ Ke6-f6
µ (-1.21) Depth: 8 00:00:00 7kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.f4-f5+ Ke6-f6
µ (-1.09) Depth: 8 00:00:00 8kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.f4-f5+ Ke6-f6
µ (-1.17) Depth: 9 00:00:00 10kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.f4-f5+ Ke6-f6
µ (-1.25) Depth: 9 00:00:00 11kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 Kf6-e6 5.e4-e5 Ra3-b3 6.Rd2xd3 Rb3xd3+ 7.Ke3xd3 a4-a3
-+ (-1.41) Depth: 9 00:00:01 12kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.Rd2xd3 Ra3xd3 7.Ke4xd3 a4-a3
-+ (-1.73) Depth: 9 00:00:01 14kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.Rd2xd3 Ra3xd3 7.Ke4xd3 a4-a3 8.Kd3-c4 Ke6-f6
-+ (-1.73) Depth: 9 00:00:01 15kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.Rd2xd3 Ra3xd3 7.Ke4xd3 a4-a3 8.Kd3-c3 Ke6-f6 9.Kc3-b3
µ (-1.09) Depth: 10 00:00:01 21kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.Rd2-d1 Ra3-b3 7.Rd1xd3 Rb3xd3 8.Ke4xd3 a4-a3 9.Kd3-c3 Ke6-f6 10.Kc3-b3
µ (-1.13) Depth: 10 00:00:01 27kN
1...c4-c3 2.b2xc3 Rb3xc3 3.e3-e4 Rc3xa3 4.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 5.Ke3xe4 Kf6-e6 6.Rd2xd3 Ra3xd3 7.Ke4xd3 a4-a3 8.Kd3-c3 a3-a2 9.Kc3-b2 Ke6-f5 10.Kb2xa2 Kf5xf4
³ (-0.68) Depth: 11 00:00:01 59kN
1...Kf6-e6 2.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 3.Kf3xe4 Rb3-b8 4.Ke4-d4 Rb8-c8 5.Kd4-e4 Ke6-f6 6.h2-h4 h7-h5 7.Rd2-g2 Rc8-e8+ 8.Ke4-d4 Re8-e2 9.Rg2-g1
µ (-1.05) Depth: 11 00:00:01 76kN
1...Kf6-e6 2.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 3.Kf3xe4 Rb3-b8 4.Ke4-d4 Rb8-c8 5.Kd4-e4 Rc8-f8 6.Rd2-d1 Ke6-d6 7.f4-f5 Kd6-c5 8.Rd1-d2 Rf8-e8+ 9.Ke4-f3 Kc5-d5 10.f5-f6 Re8-b8
µ (-0.96) Depth: 12 00:00:01 149kN
1...Rb3-b8 2.h2-h4 Rb8-b3 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Rb3-b8 5.Rd2-g2 Rb8-e8+ 6.Ke4-d4 Re8-e2 7.Rg2-g1 d3-d2 8.Rg1-d1 Kf6-f5 9.Kd4-c3
µ (-1.21) Depth: 12 00:00:01 218kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Rb7-b8 3.Rg2-d2 Rb8-e8 4.Rd2-d1 h7-h5 5.Rd1-c1 Re8-b8 6.Rc1xc4 Rb8xb2 7.Rc4-c6+ Kf6-e7
µ (-1.25) Depth: 12 00:00:01 256kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Rb7-b8 3.h2-h3 Rb8-b3 4.Rg2-d2 Rb3-b7 5.Rd2-g2 Rb7-g7 6.Rg2xg7 Kf6xg7 7.e3-e4 Kg7-f6 8.Kf3-e3 f5xe4 9.Ke3xe4
µ (-1.29) Depth: 13 00:00:01 323kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.h2-h4 Rb7-e7+ 6.Ke4-d4 Kf6-f5 7.Kd4xc4 Re7-e2 8.Rg2-g1 Kf5-e4 9.Rg1-d1 Re2-c2+ 10.Kc4-b4 Rc2xb2+ 11.Kb4xa4
µ (-1.37) Depth: 14 00:00:01 426kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Rd7-e7 8.Kc3xc4 Re7-e2 9.Rf2-f1 d3-d2 10.Rf1-d1 Kf5xf4 11.Kc4-d3
µ (-1.25) Depth: 15 00:00:01 598kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Rd7-e7 8.Kc3xc4 Re7-e2 9.Rf2-f1 d3-d2 10.Rf1-d1 Kf5xf4 11.Kc4-d3
-+ (-1.49) Depth: 15 00:00:02 727kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Kf5-e4 8.Rf2-f1 Rd7-b7 9.f4-f5 Ke4-d5 10.Rf1-b1 h7-h5
µ (-1.25) Depth: 15 00:00:02 736kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Kf5-e4 8.Rf2-f1 Rd7-b7 9.f4-f5 Ke4-d5 10.Rf1-b1 Rb7-b3+ 11.Kc3-d2 Kd5-e4
-+ (-1.41) Depth: 16 00:00:02 820kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Kf5-e4 8.Rf2-f1 Rd7-b7 9.f4-f5 Ke4-d5 10.Rf1-b1 Rb7-b3+ 11.Kc3-d2 Kd5-e4 12.Rb1-e1+ Ke4xf5 13.Re1-f1+ Kf5-e4 14.Rf1-e1+ Ke4-d4
-+ (-1.53) Depth: 16 00:00:02 951kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-e3 Rd7-e7+ 7.Ke3-f3 Re7-e1 8.h2-h4 Kf6-e6 9.h4-h5 Ke6-f6 10.h5-h6 Kf6-f5 11.Rg2-g5+ Kf5-e6 12.Rg5-g2 Ke6-d5 13.Rg2-d2
-+ (-1.65) Depth: 17 00:00:02 1407kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Kf5-e4 8.Rf2-f1 Rd7-b7 9.f4-f5 Ke4-d5 10.Rf1-b1 Rb7-b3+ 11.Kc3-d2 Kd5-e4 12.Rb1-e1+ Ke4xf5 13.Re1-f1+ Kf5-e4 14.Rf1-e1+ Ke4-d4
-+ (-1.53) Depth: 18 00:00:03 1715kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Ke6-f6 5.Ke4-d4 Rb7-d7+ 6.Kd4-c3 Kf6-f5 7.Rg2-f2 Kf5-e4 8.Rf2-f1 Rd7-b7 9.f4-f5 Ke4-d5 10.Rf1-b1 Rb7-b3+ 11.Kc3-d2 Kd5-e4 12.Rb1-e1+ Ke4xf5 13.Re1-f1+ Kf5-e4 14.Rf1-e1+ Ke4-d4
-+ (-1.73) Depth: 19 00:00:04 2426kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.Rd2-g2 Kf6-e6 3.h2-h3 Rb7-b3 4.Rg2-d2 Ke6-d5 5.Rd2-g2 c4-c3 6.b2xc3 Rb3xa3
-+ (-1.93) Depth: 19 00:00:04 3137kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.h2-h3 Rb7-g7 3.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 4.Kf3xe4 Rg7-e7+ 5.Ke4-d4 Re7-e2 6.Kd4-c3 Re2-e4 7.Rd2-g2 Re4xf4 8.Rg2-g8 Kf6-e6 9.Rg8-c8 Ke6-d5 10.Rc8-d8+ Kd5-c5 11.Rd8-c8+ Kc5-b5 12.Rc8-b8+ Kb5-c6 13.Rb8-b4 Kc6-d5 14.Rb4xa4
-+ (-1.81) Depth: 19 00:00:04 3947kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 3.Kf3xe4 Rb7-e7+ 4.Ke4-d4 Re7-e2 5.Kd4-c3 Re2-e4 6.Rd2-g2 Re4xf4 7.Rg2-g8 Rf4-h4 8.Rg8-c8 Kf6-f5 9.Rc8-c7 Kf5-e6 10.h2-h3 Ke6-d5 11.Rc7-a7 Rh4-h6 12.Ra7xa4
-+ (-1.73) Depth: 20 00:00:05 5536kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.e3-e4 f5xe4+ 3.Kf3xe4 Rb7-e7+ 4.Ke4-d4 Re7-e2 5.Kd4-c3 Re2-e4 6.Rd2-g2 Re4xf4 7.Rg2-g8 Rf4-e4 8.Rg8-f8+ Kf6-g5 9.Rf8-c8 Kg5-f4
-+ (-1.97) Depth: 21 00:00:07 6858kN
1...Rb3-b7 2.h2-h3 Rb7-g7 3.Rd2-d1 Kf6-e6 4.h3-h4 Ke6-d5 5.Rd1-h1 Rg7-g6 6.Rh1-f1 Rg6-b6 7.Rf1-f2 Rb6-h6 8.Rf2-h2 Rh6-g6 9.Rh2-h1 h7-h6 10.Rh1-d1 Rg6-g8 11.Rd1-h1 Rg8-g7 12.h4-h5 Rg7-g8 13.Rh1-d1 Rg8-b8
-+ (-2.06) Depth: 21 00:00:08 7881kN
1...Rb3xb2 2.Rd2xb2 c4-c3 3.Rb2-b6+ Kf6-g7 4.Rb6-b7+ Kg7-h6 5.Rb7-b6+ Kh6-h5 6.Rb6-f6 c3-c2 7.Rf6xf5+ Kh5-h6 8.Rf5-f6+ Kh6-g7 9.Rf6-c6 d3-d2 10.Rc6-c7+ Kg7-h6
-+ (-2.22) Depth: 21 00:00:08 8758kN
1...Rb3xb2 2.Rd2xb2 c4-c3 3.Rb2-b6+ Kf6-g7 4.Rb6-b7+ Kg7-h6 5.Rb7-b6+ Kh6-h5 6.Rb6-f6 c3-c2 7.Rf6xf5+ Kh5-h6 8.Rf5-f6+ Kh6-g7 9.Rf6-c6 d3-d2 10.Rc6-c7+ Kg7-h6
-+ (-2.70) Depth: 21 00:00:09 9390kN
1...Rb3xb2 2.Rd2xb2 c4-c3 3.Rb2-b6+ Kf6-g7 4.Rb6-b7+ Kg7-h6 5.Rb7-b6+ Kh6-h5 6.Rb6-f6 c3-c2 7.Rf6xf5+ Kh5-h6 8.Rf5-f6+ Kh6-g7 9.Rf6-c6 d3-d2 10.Rc6-c7+ Kg7-h6 11.Rc7-c6+ Kh6-h5 12.Rc6-c5+ Kh5-h4 13.Rc5xc2 d2-d1Q+ 14.Rc2-e2 Qd1-d3
-+ (-3.67) Depth: 21 00:00:10 10403kN
(, 18.10.2010)
Gaviota needs 3 plies to see a win. It is done in eval().
Code: Select all
3 1 0.0 -4.94 Rxb2 2.Rxb2
6 1 0.0 -4.67 Rxa3 2.bxa3
9 1 0.0 +0.66 h5
12 1 0.0 +0.71 h6
24 1 0.0 +1.01 c3 2.bxc3 Rxc3
35 1: 0.0 +1.01 c3 2.bxc3 Rxc3
58 2 0.0 +1.01 c3 2.bxc3 Rxc3
178 2: 0.0 +1.01 c3 2.bxc3 Rxc3
330 3 0.0 +1.30 c3 2.bxc3 Rxc3 3.Ra2
483 3 0.0 :-) Rxb2
555 3 0.0 :-) Rxb2
662 3 0.0 +3.32 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Kf7
710 3: 0.0 +3.32 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Kf7
1415 4 0.0 +3.30 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Kf7 4.e4
1494 4: 0.0 +3.30 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Kf7 4.e4
2599 5 0.0 :-( Rxb2
3406 5 0.0 :-(
3649 5 0.0 :-( Rxb2
4484 5 0.0 :-(
7280 5 0.1 +3.18 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Kf7 4.Rb7+ Kg6
5.e4
7328 5: 0.1 +3.18 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Kf7 4.Rb7+ Kg6
5.e4
17093 6 0.1 :-( Rxb2
17241 6 0.1 :-(
18005 6 0.1 :-( Rxb2
20793 6 0.1 :-(
37744 6 0.2 +3.46 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Kf7 4.Rb5 c2
5.Rxf5+ Ke6 6.Re5+ Kd6
37804 6: 0.2 +3.46 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Kf7 4.Rb5 c2
5.Rxf5+ Ke6 6.Re5+ Kd6
104913 7 0.4 :-) Rxb2
248023 7 0.9 +4.19 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rb7+ Kd6
5.Rb4 c2 6.Rxa4 c1=Q 7.Rd4+ Ke6 8.Rxd3
249032 7: 0.9 +4.19 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rb7+ Kd6
5.Rb4 c2 6.Rxa4 c1=Q 7.Rd4+ Ke6 8.Rxd3
449321 8 1.6 +4.19 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rb7+ Kd6
5.Rb4 c2 6.Rxa4 c1=Q 7.Rd4+ Ke6 8.Rxd3
452796 8: 1.6 +4.19 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rb7+ Kd6
5.Rb4 c2 6.Rxa4 c1=Q 7.Rd4+ Ke6 8.Rxd3
977254 9 3.4 :-) Rxb2
1064345 9 3.7 +4.31 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rb7+ Kd6
5.Rxh7 c2 6.Rh6+ Kd5 7.Rh7 c1=Q 8.Rd7+
Ke6 9.Rxd3
1077397 9: 3.8 +4.31 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rb7+ Kd6
5.Rxh7 c2 6.Rh6+ Kd5 7.Rh7 c1=Q 8.Rd7+
Ke6 9.Rxd3
2423659 10 8.3 :-) Rxb2
4474021 10 15.2 +5.14 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rc6 c2
5.Kf2 Kd7 6.Rc4 d2 7.Rxc2 d1=Q 8.Rc5
Qd2+ 9.Kf3
4513794 10: 15.3 +5.14 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rc6 c2
5.Kf2 Kd7 6.Rc4 d2 7.Rxc2 d1=Q 8.Rc5
Qd2+ 9.Kf3
8751065 11 30.0 +5.25 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rc6 c2
5.Kg3 h6 6.Kf2 Kd7 7.Rc4 d2 8.Rxc2 d1=Q
8884396 11: 30.4 +5.25 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rc6 c2
5.Kg3 h6 6.Kf2 Kd7 7.Rc4 d2 8.Rxc2 d1=Q
22907687 12 79.5 +5.38 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rc6 c2
5.Kf2 d2 6.Rxc2 d1=Q 7.Rc7+ Kf6 8.Rc6+
Kf7 9.Rc5 Kg6 10.h3
23346913 12: 81.0 +5.38 Rxb2 2.Rxb2 c3 3.Rb6+ Ke7 4.Rc6 c2
5.Kf2 d2 6.Rxc2 d1=Q 7.Rc7+ Kf6 8.Rc6+
Kf7 9.Rc5 Kg6 10.h3
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- Posts: 161
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:06 pm
- Location: San Francisco, USA
Re: Question regarding WAC number 2
May I ask what roughly are you looking for in eval to be able to find that so quickly? I am not interested in duplicating your code of course but maybe you can put me in the general correct direction.
This position has always given Plisk a lot of trouble. It takes 22 plys and 7minutes (at around 300kN/s) to find it. Just blindly increasing the values of passed pawns as well as non-isolani passed pawn does not do it, and in fact it weakens the program overall.
People throw a blanket statement like: 2 connected passed pawns>rook, but how to actually translate that to evaluation code is not really clear to me.
Anyone venture to clarify this a bit?
Regards,
Vlad.
This position has always given Plisk a lot of trouble. It takes 22 plys and 7minutes (at around 300kN/s) to find it. Just blindly increasing the values of passed pawns as well as non-isolani passed pawn does not do it, and in fact it weakens the program overall.
People throw a blanket statement like: 2 connected passed pawns>rook, but how to actually translate that to evaluation code is not really clear to me.
Anyone venture to clarify this a bit?
Regards,
Vlad.
-
- Posts: 20943
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:30 pm
- Location: Birmingham, AL
Re: Question regarding WAC number 2
Almost certainly has to be two connected passed pawns on 6th rank. Fine commented that they are worth a rook or more.vladstamate wrote:May I ask what roughly are you looking for in eval to be able to find that so quickly? I am not interested in duplicating your code of course but maybe you can put me in the general correct direction.
This position has always given Plisk a lot of trouble. It takes 22 plys and 7minutes (at around 300kN/s) to find it. Just blindly increasing the values of passed pawns as well as non-isolani passed pawn does not do it, and in fact it weakens the program overall.
People throw a blanket statement like: 2 connected passed pawns>rook, but how to actually translate that to evaluation code is not really clear to me.
Anyone venture to clarify this a bit?
Regards,
Vlad.
It is a dangerous term, however. Move one pawn on this position and the pawns don't win any longer. I used to have a big bonus for 2 connected passers until a long discussion about this position exposed just how tricky this can be if the king can get to the pawns in time...
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- Posts: 6401
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
Re: Question regarding WAC number 2
I developed something analogous to a "static exchange evaluator" that is triggered when one side has two pawns in 6 or 7 and the other nothing but a rook. The "moves" allowed in this static evaluator are "rook to the first or a column in which there is one of those pawns", "RxP", KxP", and "king to get closer to the promotion squares", and of course, any advance of those pawns. The "exchange" of moves stops when certain conditions are satisfied. For instance, if the King blocks the pawns, the static search returns "cannot promote" or if "two pawns are in 7th and it is pawn's turn", it returns "can promote".vladstamate wrote:May I ask what roughly are you looking for in eval to be able to find that so quickly? I am not interested in duplicating your code of course but maybe you can put me in the general correct direction.
It took me a long while to be satisfied with it. It was an experiment to see how to introduce dynamic concepts into the evaluation.
Any other simplistic heuristic is doomed to failure here (but I believe that some smart extensions could help).
Miguel
This position has always given Plisk a lot of trouble. It takes 22 plys and 7minutes (at around 300kN/s) to find it. Just blindly increasing the values of passed pawns as well as non-isolani passed pawn does not do it, and in fact it weakens the program overall.
People throw a blanket statement like: 2 connected passed pawns>rook, but how to actually translate that to evaluation code is not really clear to me.
Anyone venture to clarify this a bit?
Regards,
Vlad.
-
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:49 pm
- Location: S. New Jersey, USA
Re: Question regarding WAC number 2
OK,
I just removed the connected_passer bonus and xpdnt found the move in 4 seconds. @ 14 ply. So maybe it is the limit on reductions... ?
Also, it still does NOT get wac230 even after 22 ply which takes a couple minutes...
although there have been versions in the past which solved it in under 30sec ... ???
[d]2b5/1r6/2kBp1p1/p2pP1P1/2pP4/1pP3K1/1R3P2/8 b - -
I just removed the connected_passer bonus and xpdnt found the move in 4 seconds. @ 14 ply. So maybe it is the limit on reductions... ?
Also, it still does NOT get wac230 even after 22 ply which takes a couple minutes...
although there have been versions in the past which solved it in under 30sec ... ???
[d]2b5/1r6/2kBp1p1/p2pP1P1/2pP4/1pP3K1/1R3P2/8 b - -