Chess programs :: Source available, but not today?

Discussion of chess software programming and technical issues.

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Ras
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Re: Chess programs :: Source available, but not today?

Post by Ras »

syzygy wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:32 amIn the Netherlands, you can almost certainly unilaterally revoke the GPL at any time (provided you give some consideration to persons who have come to rely on the license).
I strongly doubt this because the whole thing isn't an ongoing contract (which can be cancelled), but systematically a change of ownership, in this case of the copyright. You can't just call back your thing once you have given it away because then it isn't yours anymore. Otherwise, no perpetual change of ownership of anything would be possible, and you couldn't reliably buy anything, nor receive any gift.

In particular, it would prvent any economic usage of the copyright because any licencee would have to fear that the licence could be retracted at any point for no specific reason. That risk would prevent any further investment into the acquired rights. You wouldn't have any industry like print, music, film, or software.

The German copyright has an interesting paragraph (§42 UrhG) that an author can recall a licence if his opinion on the piece itself has changed to the point that further utilisation of the work would be unbearable for the author. Think of someone writing a book, and lateron, he changes his point of view drastically and regards the book as youthful folly damaging his current reputation. This right can be neither excluded contractually, nor can it be denied. However, the author needs to reimburse the licencee, and the cancellation becomes only valid if the author has paid or provided security for payment. The licencee in turn has only three months to tell the author what the damage is.

The fact that this paragraph even exists seems to suggest that an author can't recall a licence just like that because otherwise, this paragraph wouldn't be necessary.
Rasmus Althoff
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syzygy
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Re: Chess programs :: Source available, but not today?

Post by syzygy »

Ras wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:35 am
syzygy wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:32 amIn the Netherlands, you can almost certainly unilaterally revoke the GPL at any time (provided you give some consideration to persons who have come to rely on the license).
I strongly doubt this because the whole thing isn't an ongoing contract (which can be cancelled), but systematically a change of ownership, in this case of the copyright. You can't just call back your thing once you have given it away because then it isn't yours anymore. Otherwise, no perpetual change of ownership of anything would be possible, and you couldn't reliably buy anything, nor receive any gift.
Licensing something under the GPL is not a change of ownership. The copyright holder remains the copyright holder.
In particular, it would prvent any economic usage of the copyright because any licencee would have to fear that the licence could be retracted at any point for no specific reason. That risk would prevent any further investment into the acquired rights. You wouldn't have any industry like print, music, film, or software.
A commercial software license (for which you need to pay) is granted as part of a contract, and cancelling such a contract is not really different from cancelling any other commercial contract.

In case of the GPL license, there is probably no contract but simply a one-sided act of granting others permission, like you can grant others permission to use your garden for a picknick. Such one-sided permissions can of course be terminated.
The German copyright has an interesting paragraph (§42 UrhG) that an author can recall a licence if his opinion on the piece itself has changed to the point that further utilisation of the work would be unbearable for the author.
This is about the author's moral right (which remains with the author even after the author has transferred the full copyright), not about the copyright holder's rights.

The architect of your garden can try to invoke §42 UrhG to stop people from using it for a picknick.
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MikeB
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Re: Chess programs :: Source available, but not today?

Post by MikeB »

Some of you might be interested in this court ruling;;

https://www.theregister.com/2017/05/13/ ... e_contract

Summary: A question mark over whether the GNU GPL – the widely used free-software license – is enforceable as a contract may have been resolved by a US federal judge. In a California district court, Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley refused to accept what has been an uncomfortable legal precedent for the past decade. She ruled that the GNU General Public License is an enforceable legal contract even though it is not actually signed.

The actual ruling ...
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Ras
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Re: Chess programs :: Source available, but not today?

Post by Ras »

syzygy wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:42 amThe copyright holder remains the copyright holder.
But he has transferred a non-exclusive licence which he can't just recall. A licence isn't an ongoing contract. That's why it takes special laws to make an exception.
A commercial software license (for which you need to pay) is granted as part of a contract, and cancelling such a contract is not really different from cancelling any other commercial contract.
Actually not because you can't just recall granted rights either. If you want to be able do that, the appropriate kind of contract would be like renting something for an indefinite amount of time, but with cancellation notice period (either by the contract itself or by law).
This is about the author's moral right
No, it's not. It's a legal right, that's why it's in the German actual copyright law.

I don't speak Dutch so that I can't look up the Dutch copyright, but maybe you could do it and see which exact provisions it has for licence cancellations after the fact. If it has any provisions, that's a strong hint that these are required because you can't just cancel at a whim.
Rasmus Althoff
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Ras
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Re: Chess programs :: Source available, but not today?

Post by Ras »

MikeB wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:59 amSummary: A question mark over whether the GNU GPL – the widely used free-software license – is enforceable as a contract may have been resolved by a US federal judge. In a California district court, Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley refused to accept what has been an uncomfortable legal precedent for the past decade. She ruled that the GNU General Public License is an enforceable legal contract even though it is not actually signed.
The construction is usually a bit different. Using GPL software while in breach of the licence leaves the user with no valid licence. Since the default state of copyright is "all rights with the author", the user violates this state and therefore the copyright law. Then the usual provisions for breach of copyright come into play as legal leverage. No "contract" construct required.

The funny thing (and intended that way) is that the GPL's copyleft is legally enforceable only through the copyright laws. It would be the same with MIT/BSD licences, only that there are fewer possibilities to run afoul of them. But using code without crediting the author would be one of them.
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syzygy
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Re: Chess programs :: Source available, but not today?

Post by syzygy »

Ras wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:14 am
syzygy wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:42 amThe copyright holder remains the copyright holder.
But he has transferred a non-exclusive licence which he can't just recall. A licence isn't an ongoing contract. That's why it takes special laws to make an exception.
There is no transfer of any property right. He has merely given permission. It is like giving someone personal permission to use your garden for a picknick. No law is needed to allow you to revoke that permission.
A commercial software license (for which you need to pay) is granted as part of a contract, and cancelling such a contract is not really different from cancelling any other commercial contract.
Actually not because you can't just recall granted rights either.
I am not saying that a commercial contract can "just" be cancelled. Obviously it cannot. But that's because of contract law, not because of copyright law. So with a commercial license based on a contract, the licensee has the protection given to him by contract law.
This is about the author's moral right
No, it's not. It's a legal right, that's why it's in the German actual copyright law.
This legal right is called a moral right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights
It is different from the rights of a copyright holder.
I don't speak Dutch so that I can't look up the Dutch copyright, but maybe you could do it and see which exact provisions it has for licence cancellations after the fact. If it has any provisions, that's a strong hint that these are required because you can't just cancel at a whim.
But as I explained, those German provisions don't regulate the cancellation of a license granted by a copyright holder. It just means that under specific conditions the author of the copyrighted work can step in and interfere with the work's exploitation. Dutch law has something similar.
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Re: Chess programs :: Source available, but not today?

Post by Madeleine Birchfield »

We might soon add Rodent and OpenTal to the list.
PK wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:30 am I am seriously considering closing the source of Rodent and OpenTal, provided that Sungorus author and other contributors agree. I came here to learn, and when I learned a thing or two, to share ideas. Talkchess had been the main venue where I could do that. Alas, it is no more, and for several months the problem has not been solved. I might as well decide that sharing anything is such a discriminatory community makes no sense.