Off-the-shelf PC spec, engine development

[brianr]

I am far from a hardware guru, but have built and upgraded quite a few PCs over the years.
My two cents:

There is something just a little odd about the product listing.
I'm having difficulty finding the exact CPU on Intel's spec site (ark.intel.com).
That CPU is listed as an OEM in a few non-Intel review sites.

The clock speed when many CPUs are being used will be fairly slow, and even the peak speed is only meh.

The HP workstation looks like this one:
https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c04505606

Suggest determining which power supply is configured (850 or 1125 watts).
For use with high-end GPU may need upgrading (the included GPU is ok for just driving monitors, but not for any GPU engine like Leela).
Only two 80mm fans would also likely not be enough cooling with a big GPU.

500GB SSD fine for Win10 OS use only, however would want to add additional SSDs for tablebases and such.

Finally, system built rigs can be a pain to upgrade v build your own.
Of course, you do not have to start from scratch with a build you own unit.
I have bought several custom built used PCs on Ebay and upgraded them and been relatively pleased with the price/performance, which is about twice as good as a used vendor built unit like this, and 3x better than a new unit, IMHO.

So, depending on your intended use, expect to add significant $$$ to upgrade.

[Joost Buijs]

Ok, thanks. I should consider also self-build, but like all complex things done for first time, there’s the anxiety effect to factor in, especially with high end new hardware, knowing what spec of components, forgetting to order some vital bits (or making sense of multiple cabling), I just tend to recoil in horror.

Well, engine1-engine2 matches, either if I write the code myself (Using Python chess for the handling), or Ferdy’s cutechess with concurrency handlers), is, I think, using one core/single thread/no ponder between e1 and e2 single match, scaled up by processes to N game pairs and N cores.
For 64 concurrent games requires scaling the RAM requirement for the two engines likewise. No doubt there are more efficient ways to do it, but if RAM for one game pair = 4Gb, there’s your 256Gb all used up

If you need such a large amount of memory to run a game pair, you're right. Usually tests are run at bullet time-controls and 256 MB hash per engine would be more than enough. It's also not advisable to run 64 game-pairs on a 32 core machine, at least that is my feeling about it.

Fortunately DDR4 memory is very cheap at the moment, around 250 euro's for 64 MB.

[Rebel]

I've been offered this, it's re-conditioned workstation

HP Workstation Z840 met:

2 x Intel Xeon E5-2673V4 2.3-3.3GHz 20 Core with HT 80 Threads
256 GB RAM DDR4
4 TB WD SAS Harddisk
Enterprise SSD 500GB + bracket
nVidia Quadro K2200 4 GB met 1 x dvi en 2 x displayport
Optische Drive Type DVD+/-RW
Verbinding (USB/FW) 2x USB 2.0, 8x USB 3.0
Audio uitgangen Analoog
Verbinding (Ethernet) 1Gbps
Verbinding (overige) 2x PS/2, Serieel (9-pins)
Desktoptype Tower/desktop
Besturingssysteem Windows 10 Professional NL 64 bit
Kleur Zwart
Licht Gebruikt met 3 jaar Garantie
Including Shipment to France € 2979,00 ex. VAT.

What to make of this? I've never before had a PC with two processors, so no idea how that works, does threads.h know how to divide work up between 2x20 cores on two processors, or do I have explicitly code for two processors, or??

Windows NL might be a problem, I had a French PC once that was Windows F, and that config was extremely difficult to get round, all reboots (and a lot else) sent you back to French (which is ok, except when you want to use Help, or find some system menu item, technical words translated are not easy to search).

So, anybody know some kind of relative performance of those two processors compared to AMD 64x ?

I see it is a Dutch offer, they sell these refurbished systems ovverhere:

https://www.creoserver.com/hp-workstati ... gKv_vD_BwE

Two processors should not be a problem, even when you threat it like an SMP system, but for optimal performance you have to make your program NUMA aware.

Correct.

These systems are probabely very noisy,

I had two, now one, they are not noisy.

and don't expect it to have the same performance as an AMD 3970X.

What matters is the number of cores vs price.

For accurate testing (elo +1|-1) one needs at least 40,000 games.

[Joost Buijs]

What matters is the number of cores vs price.

For accurate testing (elo +1|-1) one needs at least 40,000 games.

Of course it is, in the past I had these dual Xeons too and I always found them noisy.
The 3970X and the 10980XE I recently build are so quiet that I cant even hear if they are turned on or not.
If they are running at full load I can hear something, but it is still hardly noticeable.

[Dann Corbit]

Workstations from Delta Computer in DE:

https://www.deltacomputer.com/workstation.html

From to, with and wo GP/GPU and so on.

***edit***

Ah, sorry, just realized shop is in German only, asusme then they operate only in DE.

--
Srdja

I've been offered this, it's re-conditioned workstation

HP Workstation Z840 met:

2 x Intel Xeon E5-2673V4 2.3-3.3GHz 20 Core with HT 80 Threads
256 GB RAM DDR4
4 TB WD SAS Harddisk
Enterprise SSD 500GB + bracket
nVidia Quadro K2200 4 GB met 1 x dvi en 2 x displayport
Optische Drive Type DVD+/-RW
Verbinding (USB/FW) 2x USB 2.0, 8x USB 3.0
Audio uitgangen Analoog
Verbinding (Ethernet) 1Gbps
Verbinding (overige) 2x PS/2, Serieel (9-pins)
Desktoptype Tower/desktop
Besturingssysteem Windows 10 Professional NL 64 bit
Kleur Zwart
Licht Gebruikt met 3 jaar Garantie
Including Shipment to France € 2979,00 ex. VAT.

What to make of this? I've never before had a PC with two processors, so no idea how that works, does threads.h know how to divide work up between 2x20 cores on two processors, or do I have explicitly code for two processors, or??

Windows NL might be a problem, I had a French PC once that was Windows F, and that config was extremely difficult to get round, all reboots (and a lot else) sent you back to French (which is ok, except when you want to use Help, or find some system menu item, technical words translated are not easy to search).

So, anybody know some kind of relative performance of those two processors compared to AMD 64x ?

http://ipmanchess.yolasite.com/amd---in ... -bench.php
shows 90M NPS with Asmfish. About 10% slower than a 3970x. It will draw a lot of power.

[Dann Corbit]

What matters is the number of cores vs price.

For accurate testing (elo +1|-1) one needs at least 40,000 games.

Of course it is, in the past I had these dual Xeons too and I always found them noisy.
The 3970X and the 10980XE I recently build are so quiet that I cant even hear if they are turned on or not.
If they are running at full load I can hear something, but it is still hardly noticeable.

If the machine is designed for a server room, you will need something like this:

These special racks need active cooling that senses the temperature of the machines inside.
Commercial servers meant for a server room have squirrel cage blowers that sound like a jet plane taking off when the machines are going full tilt

[Dann Corbit]

With multiple processors in the box, it is a NUMA machine. If you write your code NUMA oblivious it will not perform as well.
SF has nice NUMA code in it (I think it was the ASMFISH port that got that rolling).
I think the Cfish code is easiest to understand.
Crafty is NUMA aware also. I guess most of the top performing programs are NUMA aware but I did not investigate carefully.

[Dann Corbit]

If you notice in the IPMAN chess page, the dual Xeon you are looking at is about the same speed as a AMD 3960x at 3.9 ghz though one at the same GHz speed is listed at 80M NPS (seems puzzling).

Here is one for $1350:


I guess you can find better deals. It will also use less power. If you want the best bang for your buck, I would do a little math first and see what sort of performance you can get per dollar.

Seems like you could buy two of these for the cost of that dual xeon system

[Joost Buijs]

http://ipmanchess.yolasite.com/amd---in ... -bench.php
shows 90M NPS with Asmfish. About 10% slower than a 3970x. It will draw a lot of power.

You can always add some solar-panels into the mix to keep the energy costs down!

[Dann Corbit]

http://ipmanchess.yolasite.com/amd---in ... -bench.php
shows 90M NPS with Asmfish. About 10% slower than a 3970x. It will draw a lot of power.

You can always add some solar-panels into the mix to keep the energy cost down!

Or your own backyard wind turbine farm, if zoning laws will allow it. But you will have to clean up the shredded seagulls from your back yard every few months.

It takes about 10 years for a solar panel collection to pay for itself in the US. I have no idea what it is like in other countries