bob wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:49 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:48 am
bob wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:37 am
So, as usual, you want to just hand-wave the discussion away.
I prefer it to Bob dense paragraph waving. My rule for which has been, for a long time now, the longer you post and the more examples using cars included, the more is the one central point (being usually lost by then anyway) wrong.
This is a major problem. The entire field of software engineering sprang up to make progress. And today, the best SE can do is REDUCE the number of bugs that slip by. It is impossible to eliminate them completely.
your argument is circular. You assume there are always more bugs, therefore you can never get to none. Is like the maths proof about infinity and largest number. If I say N, you say N+1.
If I say N+2, you say N+3 and so on.
There are not an infinite number of bugs in a developing chess engine, obviously. What you are trying to tell us is just wrong, you are telling us that we can’t sit down and methodically test a finite engine of relatively low complexity in a bounded 64 square environment, finding and removing bugs one by one until we found them all. All N of them.
I say it is possible. Signed contracts to do it. Created the infrastructure to do it. Done it. Seen others do it. Got product through the most destructive possible testing environments. Many times.
If we could, that would be the holy grail of computer science.
misuse of concept. You just mean it would be a good thing if stuff worked.
Do some reading. Learn some facts. Then you will begin to understand the problems.
Here we go again. You just can’t stop yourself with the NPD put downs, can you?
Is there a technical argument anywhere that exists where you are not personally insulting the person who technically argues with you?
Having some foreign hot-shot come and yell is NOT going to eliminate all bugs.
actually, it did, and it provided the model by which we did it ourselves. Japanese style quality control. Which created Value, proven by Market.
Only way to do that is to eliminate all programmers, which would then eliminate all programs, which is the only way to eliminate all bugs.
You see anything about cars in my post?
I have not said there is an infinite number of bugs. I have said there is a LARGE number of potential bugs. And there are a significant number of bugs that slip past any type of testing you can throw at it reasonably and be able to complete it without taking years or decades to complete the testing.
What in the above is insulting. You obviously are not familiar with the discipline of software engineering.
Here are a few famous quotes from software engineering:
1. It’s hard enough to find an error in your code when you’re looking for it; its even harder when you’ve ASSUMED your code is ERROR-FREE. (sound familiar?) --Steve McConnell
2. Even the best planning is not so omniscient as to get it right the first time. -- Fred Brooks
3. Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence! --Edsger Dijkstra
4. Before software can be reusable it first has to be usable. --Ralph Johnson
5. Every big computing disaster has come from taking too many ideas and putting them in one place. --Gordon Bell
6. Hiring people to write code to sell is not the same as hiring people to design and build durable, usable, dependable software. --Larry Constantine
7. If you don't know that a bug exists yet, is it still a bug? You seem to think "no" here... I do not.
8. Bottom line: Can you write "Bug free software"? NO Anyone who tells you otherwise is clueless. (note that is ANOTHER quote, not MY words). I presume you will call that an insult. I call it a quote and statement of fact.
9. There is no such thing as a perfect software. Zero bug development is a myth that should be dispensed with.
I found an interesting discussion about bugs. You run on computing hardware. That can have bugs. (remember the pentium floating point divide fiasco for just one example?) You run on an operating system that can have bugs that affect your program. You use multiple programming libraries (IE C library) that can have bugs. You use a compiler to convert your source code to an executable binary. That can have bugs. And, of course YOUR code will always have bugs, particularly if you use threads which adds several more orders of magnitude of potential bugs.
Now, to the above quotes, from some GIANTS of computer science, software development, and software engineering. You seem to believe that you know more than all/any of them. Think about that for a minute, and it might sink in. The GIANTS agree that bug-free software is a dream, not a reality.
Your statement "actually it did..." is utter nonsense. EVERYONE (but you, apparently) agrees that testing can only discover bugs, not prove that they don't exist. To believe otherwise is naive given all the evidence supporting this concept.
I do realize that actual data seems to you to always be an insult, because that is the only way you can escape from a discussion with you having zero supporting evidence to support you other than "your statements. Which have to be factual since you wrote em?" As I said, you should stop, read a bit, and get a better grasp on what is going on. Right now you are "way out there" compared to a bunch of people I have very high respect for.
For your request about EPD testing, _I_ did it. I have code that tests for everything I could think of. No more than 9 queens + pawns, no more than 10 knights, rooks and bishops + pawns. Valid EP status. Valid castling status (at least rooks/kings on original squares, no way to know if they have moved previously and moved back. Side not on move can't be in check. Total pawns + pieces can not be > 15. I ran millions of lines of EPD through my EPD input, then examined the resulting board positions to be sure they were valid, AFTER the EPD input code had checked for every possible error I could think of. And testing showed a couple I missed and had to fix. But once again, testing can not prove the absence of bugs, it can only prove their presence. So I won't claim that my FEN parsing is bug-free. I can only claim that massive testing found no bugs. I know of no holes, but can not guarantee there is a special case I missed. I will add that this checking caused lots of user complaints. They had test positions with 9 queens + 3 or more rooks or other pieces plus pawns still on board. I elected to ignore the complaints and treat EPD as a purely legal position description rather than something off-the-wall. But that is a TINY piece of code compared to the complex parts of Crafty. TINY.
So many of us DO try to test our code as thoroughly as possible. But no code will ever be perfect.