How many elo do ponder equals to

Discussion of chess software programming and technical issues.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.

Which engine do you believe got the upper hand in 1 minute bullet without increment

Engine A | 4-core with ponder
0
No votes
Engine B | 8-core ponder off
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 0

User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

How many elo do ponder equals to

Post by Nordlandia » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:21 pm

Engine A ponder while engine B doesn't. Advantage +/- 50 elo. Doubling is worth more. Now the question is if it's likely engine A equalize engine B in fast time formats or who got the upper hand. The effectiveness of ponder is probably higher in shorter time controls than in longer.

Do you put your bet on 4-core PB=on versus 8-core PB=off in 1 minute bullet games?

Hardware is assumed to be equal.

I'm referring to to this old thread.
http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtop ... =7&t=48864

zullil
Posts: 5271
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: How many elo do ponder equals to

Post by zullil » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:44 pm

Nordlandia wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:21 pm
Engine A ponder while engine B doesn't. Advantage +/- 50 elo. Doubling is worth more. Now the question is if it's likely engine A equalize engine B in fast time formats or who got the upper hand. The effectiveness of ponder is probably higher in shorter time controls than in longer.

Do you put your bet on 4-core PB=on versus 8-core PB=off in 1 minute bullet games?

Hardware is assumed to be equal.

I'm referring to to this old thread.
http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtop ... =7&t=48864
If A and B are the same engine, it seems that A's pondering will very often be successful in pre-searching the move eventually made by B. If so, it's roughly like giving A twice the search time that B has. So I'm voting for A.

syzygy
Posts: 4425
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: How many elo do ponder equals to

Post by syzygy » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:11 pm

Nordlandia wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:21 pm
Hardware is assumed to be equal.
And I suppose you will be running the engines on separate machines (or the pondering engine will compete for resources with the non-pondering engine when it is the latter's turn).

User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: How many elo do ponder equals to

Post by Nordlandia » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:26 pm

syzygy wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:11 pm
Nordlandia wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:21 pm
Hardware is assumed to be equal.
And I suppose you will be running the engines on separate machines (or the pondering engine will compete for resources with the non-pondering engine when it is the latter's turn).
Imagine two machines with same hardware linked together. Same engine on both machines.

MikeB
Posts: 3160
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: How many elo do ponder equals to

Post by MikeB » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:50 pm

I can actually test this on my 12 core machine - I believe a decisive advantage will got the 8 core on the simple basis everty search counts - whereas pondering will have some wasted searches , maybe not many with like engines , but enough to be the difference maker.

MikeB
Posts: 3160
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: How many elo do ponder equals to

Post by MikeB » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:58 pm

MikeB wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:50 pm
I can actually test this on my 12 core machine - I believe a decisive advantage will got the 8 core on the simple basis everty search counts - whereas pondering will have some wasted searches , maybe not many with like engines , but enough to be the difference maker.
Will modify the threads to be 6 and 3, same concept, so as not to use more than 12 threads at any onetime.

MikeB
Posts: 3160
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: How many elo do ponder equals to

Post by MikeB » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:27 pm

MikeB wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:58 pm
MikeB wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:50 pm
I can actually test this on my 12 core machine - I believe a decisive advantage will got the 8 core on the simple basis everty search counts - whereas pondering will have some wasted searches , maybe not many with like engines , but enough to be the difference maker.
Will modify the threads to be 6 and 3, same concept, so as not to use more than 12 threads at any onetime.
Everyone interested can follow along here - this is just a 100 game match using 50 positions.

Initial results:

Code: Select all

100 games were planned
Match started:     06/22/19 : 18:18:34
Target completion: 06/22/19 : 21:38:34

Base: 60 seconds
Increment: 0 seconds
found 1 hosts to use

1 of 100 games completed...
Time control: 60 seconds + 0 seconds
Threads = 12
Hash = 256
Date: 06/22/19 : 18:20:34
rm: pgn.txt: No such file or directory
1 game(s) loaded
Rank Name            Rating   Δ     +    -     #     Σ    Σ%     W    L    D   W%    =%   OppR 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   1 McCain-X4-6CPU   3107   0.0    7    7     1    1.0 100.0    1    0    0 100.0   0.0  3093 
   2 McCain-X4-3CPU   3093  13.9    7    7     1    0.0   0.0    0    1    0   0.0   0.0  3107 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 game(s) loaded


2 of 100 games completed...
Time control: 60 seconds + 0 seconds
Threads = 12
Hash = 256
Date: 06/22/19 : 18:22:34
2 game(s) loaded
Rank Name            Rating   Δ     +    -     #     Σ    Σ%     W    L    D   W%    =%   OppR 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   1 McCain-X4-6CPU   3106   0.0    6    6     2    1.5  75.0    1    0    1  50.0  50.0  3094 
   2 McCain-X4-3CPU   3094  11.6    6    6     2    0.5  25.0    0    1    1   0.0  50.0  3106 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 game(s) loaded
Results - updated every two minutes:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xlz8d9rt5c1sj ... a.txt?dl=0

PGN Files - also updated every two minutes:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e808r1e9o253i2x/all.txt?dl=0

MikeB
Posts: 3160
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: How many elo do ponder equals to

Post by MikeB » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:57 pm

zullil wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:44 pm
Nordlandia wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:21 pm
Engine A ponder while engine B doesn't. Advantage +/- 50 elo. Doubling is worth more. Now the question is if it's likely engine A equalize engine B in fast time formats or who got the upper hand. The effectiveness of ponder is probably higher in shorter time controls than in longer.

Do you put your bet on 4-core PB=on versus 8-core PB=off in 1 minute bullet games?

Hardware is assumed to be equal.

I'm referring to to this old thread.
http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtop ... =7&t=48864
If A and B are the same engine, it seems that A's pondering will very often be successful in pre-searching the move eventually made by B. If so, it's roughly like giving A twice the search time that B has. So I'm voting for A.
You are forgetting B is using twice as many cores. So A has to ponder CORRECTLY , just to stay even in productive CPU time . Every ponder that was incorrect , was inefficient use of CPU time.

User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: How many elo do ponder equals to

Post by Nordlandia » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:04 am

MikeB: how did you let 3-core utilize ponder?

I don't know of GUI that allow one side use ponder and the other not. Like a sort of handicap.

One solution is to disable ponder in the stockfish source code if that is a possible.

User avatar
hgm
Posts: 23299
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller
Contact:

Re: How many elo do ponder equals to

Post by hgm » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:22 am

WinBoard offers a work-around for this kind of things: the commands 'new' and 'computer', sent at the start of each game, are actually configurable strings on a per-engine basis, through the options /firstInitString and /firstComputerString. You could include commands to switch ponder on or off in those, to overrule any earlier commands for that normally sent by the GUI. I think especially the computre string is sent after anything else, at game start.

Post Reply