7-men Syzygy attempt

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Nordlandia
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Re: 7-men Syzygy attempt

Post by Nordlandia » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:56 pm

Question for Ronald: Let imagine if sf is probing 5-men + 6men adj, face identical sf probing 6-man.

How much advantage is probing 6-men during search in contrast to probing 5-men + immediate 6-men adjudication?

>--->

Another possible option is probing 5-men during search + automatic 7-man adjudication.

guyhaw
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Re: 7-men Syzygy attempt

Post by guyhaw » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:32 pm

Very impressed by your initiative - and good to see Ronald de Man active on the EGT scene again.

I would be very happy to have a version of RdM's code which created 6-man DTZ EGTs , regardless of a n-man rule.

Setting 'n' to 500 ply would I think do it!

While there is some 6-man DTZ data for pawnless endgames (c/o previous DTC work) and for 'shallow' P-ful endgames without over-deep successor endgames, we still do not have data of the quality that RdM produced in the last few years.

Here's hoping ...

g

Jouni
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Re: 7-men Syzygy attempt

Post by Jouni » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:51 pm

What will be ELO gain of 7 piece? 5 piece gives +5 and 6 piece +3 additionally maybe. +1 ELO?
Jouni

Vinvin
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Re: 7-men Syzygy attempt

Post by Vinvin » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:52 pm

syzygy wrote:My estimation was 10 TB for WDL and 10 TB for DTZ. For adjudication you would only need WDL.
Why same size for both ? WDL should be smaller, isn't it ?

syzygy
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Re: 7-men Syzygy attempt

Post by syzygy » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:04 pm

Vinvin wrote:
syzygy wrote:My estimation was 10 TB for WDL and 10 TB for DTZ. For adjudication you would only need WDL.
Why same size for both ? WDL should be smaller, isn't it ?
The DTZ files do not include the information that can be obtained directly from the WDL files. So draws and positions with winning pawn moves and captures can be compressed out (the compressor chooses values that compress well), and win-in-10 and loss-in-10 can be stored as the same value. What also helps a lot is storing values for one side to move only.

Since there are more pawns in 7 than in 6 (so smaller DTZ on average), I expect the DTZ/WDL size ratio to be smaller (and to be less than 1). For 6 the ratio is indeed smaller than for 5.

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Re: 7-men Syzygy attempt

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:15 pm

Jouni wrote:What will be ELO gain of 7 piece? 5 piece gives +5 and 6 piece +3 additionally maybe. +1 ELO?
It is a function of TB access speed.
If the TB is fast enough, it will be a large gain.
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Ozymandias
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Re: 7-men Syzygy attempt

Post by Ozymandias » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:51 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Jouni wrote:What will be ELO gain of 7 piece? 5 piece gives +5 and 6 piece +3 additionally maybe. +1 ELO?
It is a function of TB access speed.
If the TB is fast enough, it will be a large gain.
Specially at very fast TCs.

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Nordlandia
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Re: 7-men Syzygy attempt

Post by Nordlandia » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:21 am

Is dtm functioning similarly to dtz when it comes to cache allocation?

Dtz only use a modest amount of cache.

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Re: 7-men Syzygy attempt

Post by syzygy » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:13 am

There is no reason to believe that TBs help less at long TC. I suspect that the opposite is the case.

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Ozymandias
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Re: 7-men Syzygy attempt

Post by Ozymandias » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:46 am

syzygy wrote:There is no reason to believe that TBs help less at long TC. I suspect that the opposite is the case.
With Houdini 4, I tested an Elo increase of at least 20 points (I don't have the exact figure at hand), and that's just going from 5-men to 6-men, not from 0 to 6. I've never see anything close to that figure, being reported.

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