On-line engine blitz tourney October

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Michael Sherwin
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Re: On-line engine blitz tourney October

Post by Michael Sherwin »

hgm wrote: A record number of players, this time, even if you don't count the one that had to withdraw after two rounds because of engine trouble!

We have to evaluate how we liked the McMahon pairing system. I think that in any case it has to be tweeked so that there are an even number of top engines that get maximum initial points, as it would be unfair to the one that gets 0.5 pt less and gets added to the group to play a top engine anyway. I also think that with such a large field perhaps only the top 1/3 should get equal points, and it should start to tail off from there. I guess it really depends on the rating distribution; in an advanced system you would calculate where the chance that a player can win gets below a given threshold (say 1%), and start decreasing the initial points linearly from there.

Another conclusion is that the gap between searching and non-searching engines is too large, so that the non-searching engines are essentially BYEs for the others. Making the luck factor for how many of those you get paired with for the tail of the searching engines substantial.
I guess it worked okay and by what you said it can work even better. But personally I was not feeling it. It was like walking around in Bizarro world. Looking at all the strange things that I did not know what they were.

Edit: Random movers should only play each other until they have played all their games. Then they should play the lowest 'real' engines. Otherwise I think that they are okay to have in the tournament.
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Henk
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Re: On-line engine blitz tourney October

Post by Henk »

Sven wrote:
Henk wrote:Maybe better play one minute games.
Didn't Skipper play one minute games? :roll:
Yes but if other participants don't you have to wait about ten minutes before next game starts. So nine rounds means 80 minutes waiting. Can think about something more entertaining.
Stan Arts
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Re: On-line engine blitz tourney October

Post by Stan Arts »

hgm wrote: We have to evaluate how we liked the McMahon pairing system.
I think the pairings were generally better than before. The final scoring however..is very confusing.
So maybe an option is to keep this system for pairing but resort back to actual game scores for the results? Though I'm sure you thought of that and the results probably get lopsided somehow?

Ofcourse I can't complain. Don't think I've never seen Nemeton up this high in the list.
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Guenther
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Re: On-line engine blitz tourney October

Post by Guenther »

hgm wrote:

Code: Select all

:Tourney Players: Round 9 of 9 
:
:     Name              Rating Score Perfrm Upset  Results 
:     ----------------- ------ ----- ------ ------ ------- 
:  1 -Fizbo             [2192]  12.5  [2240] [   0] +05w +07w +11b +03w =02b =04w =06b +09w +08b 
:  2 +WaspX             [2054]  11.5  [2139] [  87] +14b =12w +04w +13b =01w -03w =09b +11w +06b 
:  3 -nemorino          [2039]  11.5  [2154] [  72] +15w +09w +12b -01b =05w +02b =04b =06w +10b 
[/quote]

How would the table look w/o the McMahon counting is there much difference?
BTW it seems I have to create that table too anyway, because that system now breaks some parts of my stats for the eternal tables.
I guess I will solve it by providing it both ways. (McMahon on the result page and count 'as usual' on the stats tables)

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hgm
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Re: On-line engine blitz tourney October

Post by hgm »

Well, that depends. In principle only the score column would be different. But if you would sort the table by the value in that column, the table would of course look entirely different. In this case not for the top three, which did really well even through they only played tough opponents (Fizbo had 7.5 out of 9 real points, which is 83%, the other two 6.5/9, which is still 71%), and this was too hard to match even for someone down in the list that met only its approximate equals. But rpiEmbla, for instance, had 6 real points, and thus would tie with Arasan when ignoring the free points. But Arasan has of course played the number 1-5, 7-9, 13 and 19. The strongest opponent of rpiEmbla was number 26, and then 32, while it scored all its points against microMax (surprising), Skipper and the non-searching engines. If the top 10 would be more equally matched, a player near the bottom (ratingwise) could easily get more real points than any of the top engines, as it would continue to meet relatively weak opponents even if it scored well.

This is a general problem of Swiss-style tourneys; the final ranking by points doesn't say much about the relative strength. Very often two engines end with 4.5/9, one having spent most of the tourney in the top 25%, the other in the bottom 25%, making up for the point difference that kept them there in the last two rounds (with a lucky pairing in the last round). The free points you get in McMahon are in a sense compensation for that you will meet much stronger opponents. Which in pure Swiss would be totally invisible.

The only way to extract a realistic ranking out of such a tourney is by running the real results through a rating program. And then the McMahon tourney would give you much more accurate ratings, by providing more relevant data through pairings between closely matched opponents. While a significant part of the Swiss tourney would be wasted on confirming the obvious (e.g. that Stockfish is stronger than a random mover), and don't affect the rating calculation at all.
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Guenther
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Re: On-line engine blitz tourney October

Post by Guenther »

After some fiddling with escape sequences (it's awful to work with '+' signs in calc programs) here is a table with scores.

Code: Select all

#       Name            McMahon WDL     Opp     WDL     Opp     WDL     Opp     WDL     Opp     WDL     Opp     WDL     Opp     WDL     Opp     WDL     Opp     WDL     Opp     Score
1       Fizbo           12.5    =+'     05w     =+'     07w     =+'     11b     =+'     03w     ='      02b     ='      04w     ='      06b     =+'     09w     =+'     08b     7.5
2       WaspX           11.5    =+'     14b     ='      12w     =+'     04w     =+'     13b     ='      01w     -'      03w     ='      09b     =+'     11w     =+'     06b     6.5
3       nemorino        11.5    =+'     15w     =+'     09w     =+'     12b     -'      01b     ='      05w     =+'     02b     ='      04b     ='      06w     =+'     10b     6.5
4       ArasanX         11.0    =+'     19w     =+'     08w     -'      02b     ='      09w     =+'     07b     ='      01b     ='      03w     ='      05w     =+'     13b     6
5       Pedone          11.0    -'      01b     =+'     20w     =+'     22w     =+'     11b     ='      03b     -'      06w     =+'     10w     ='      04b     =+'     09b     6
6       WaDuuttie       10.5    =+'     16w     ='      13w     -'      10b     =+'     19w     =+'     12b     =+'     05b     ='      01w     ='      03b     -'      02w     5.5
7       Goldbar         10.0    =+'     17w     -'      01b     -'      13b     =+'     22w     -'      04w     =+'     16b     ='      08b     ='      18w     =+'     19w     5
8       Baron           10.0    =+'     20w     -'      04b     =+'     16w     ='      10w     -'      14b     =+'     18b     ='      07w     =+'     15b     -'      01w     5
9       Laser           10.0    =+'     29w     -'      03b     =+'     17w     ='      04b     =+'     10b     =+'     13w     ='      02w     -'      01b     -'      05w     5
10      NightmareX      9.5     -'      13b     =+'     21w     =+'     06w     ='      08b     -'      09w     =+'     17w     -'      05b     =+'     12b     -'      03w     4.5
11      Amoeba          9.5     =+'     21w     =+'     22b     -'      01w     -'      05w     =+'     16b     ='      14w     ='      13b     -'      02b     ='      15w     4.5
12      Arminius        9.5     =+'     24w     ='      02b     -'      03w     ='      15b     -'      06w     =+'     21b     =+'     14b     -'      10w     ='      17b     4.5
13      Zurichess       9.5     =+'     10w     ='      06b     =+'     07w     -'      02w     =+'     15b     -'      09b     ='      11w     ='      19b     -'      04w     4.5
14      Phalanx         9.5     -'      02w     ='      23b     ='      18w     =+'     20b     =+'     08w     ='      11b     -'      12w     -'      16b     =+'     24w     4.5
15      rpiArminius     9.5     -'      03b     =+'     31w     ='      19b     ='      12w     -'      13w     =+'     20b     =+'     23b     -'      08w     ='      11b     4.5
16      Schooner        9.5     -'      06b     =+'     29w     -'      08b     =+'     30b     -'      11w     -'      07w     =+'     31b     =+'     14w     ='      18b     4.5
17      Nemeton         9.5     -'      07b     =+'     47w     -'      09b     =+'     23w     ='      18w     -'      10b     ='      19w     =+'     21b     ='      12w     4.5
18      tomitankChess   9.5     =+'     34w     =+'     27b     ='      14b     =+'     21w     ='      17b     -'      08w     =+'     33b     ='      07b     ='      16w     6
19      rpiStockfish    9.0     -'      04b     =+'     24w     ='      15w     -'      06b     ='      21b     =+'     22w     ='      17b     ='      13w     -'      07b     4
20      Bliep           9.0     -'      08b     -'      05b     =+'     31w     -'      14w     ='      33b     -'      15w     =+'     29w     ='      22b     =+'     23w     4
21      PuppetMaster    8.5     -'      11b     -'      10b     =+'     23w     -'      18b     ='      19w     -'      12w     =+'     30b     -'      17w     =+'     31b     3.5
22      Myrddin         8.5     =+'     47b     -'      11w     -'      05b     -'      07b     ='      34w     -'      19b     ='      24w     ='      20w     =+'     33b     3.5
23      Nameless        8.5     =+'     30b     ='      14w     -'      21b     -'      17b     =+'     25w     =+'     34b     -'      15w     =+'     33w     -'      20b     4.5
24      Floyd           8.0     -'      12b     -'      19b     -'      30w     ='      34b     =+'     28w     -'      33w     ='      22b     =+'     31w     -'      14b     3
25      Jumbo           8.0     -'      31b     ='      35w     =+'     27w     -'      33b     -'      23b     ='      28w     ='      32b     =+'     34b     =+'     30w     4.5
26      Winter          8.0     -'      27w     -'      33b     =+'     37w     -'      28b     =+'     38b     -'      32w     =+'     39b     =+'     40w     =+'     35w     5
27      Barbarossa      8.0     =+'     26b     -'      18w     -'      25b     =+'     38w     =+'     32b     -'      31b     =+'     34w     -'      29b     =+'     41w     5
28      RookieMonster   8.0     ='      36w     =+'     38b     =+'     32w     =+'     26w     -'      24b     ='      25b     =+'     35w     ='      30b     ='      29w     6
29      Spartacus       7.5     -'      09b     -'      16b     -'      34w     ='      31b     =+'     35w     -'      30w     -'      20b     =+'     27w     ='      28b     3
30      Lozza           7.5     -'      23w     ='      34b     =+'     24b     -'      16w     -'      31w     =+'     29b     -'      21w     ='      28w     -'      25b     3
31      Joker           7.5     =+'     25w     -'      15b     -'      20b     ='      29w     =+'     30b     =+'     27w     -'      16w     -'      24b     -'      21w     3.5
32      rpiFruit        7.5     -'      35b     =+'     39w     -'      28b     =+'     37b     -'      27w     =+'     26b     ='      25w     =+'     42b     ='      34w     5
33      Isa             7.5     =+'     38b     =+'     26w     =+'     35b     =+'     25w     ='      20w     =+'     24b     -'      18w     -'      23b     -'      22w     5.5
34      RomiChess       7.0     -'      18b     ='      30w     =+'     29b     ='      24w     ='      22b     -'      23w     -'      27b     -'      25w     ='      32b     3
35      KingSlayer      7.0     =+'     32w     ='      25b     -'      33w     =+'     36b     -'      29b     =+'     39w     -'      28b     =+'     38w     -'      26b     4.5
36      microMax        7.0     ='      28b     -'      37w     =+'     39b     -'      35w     =+'     40b     -'      38w     =+'     44b     =+'     43w     =+'     46b     5.5
37      rpiEmbla        7.0     =+'     43w     =+'     36b     -'      26b     -'      32w     =+'     44w     -'      40b     =+'     45w     =+'     46w     =+'     42b     6
38      Eichhoernchen   6.5     -'      33w     -'      28w     =+'     41b     -'      27b     -'      26w     =+'     36b     =+'     42w     -'      35b     =+'     43b     4
39      Abbess          6.5     =+'     40w     -'      32b     -'      36w     =+'     41w     =+'     42b     -'      35b     -'      26w     =+'     45b     =+'     44w     5
40      Embla           6.5     -'      39b     ='      41w     =+'     43w     =+'     44b     -'      36w     =+'     37w     =+'     46b     -'      26b     =+'     45w     5.5
41      Skiull          6.5     =+'     42w     ='      40b     -'      38w     -'      39b     =+'     46w     =+'     45b     =+'     43w     =+'     44w     -'      27b     5.5
42      Skipper         4.5     -'      41b     =+'     44w     =+'     45w     =+'     43b     -'      39w     =+'     46b     -'      38b     -'      32w     -'      37w     4
43      NEG             3.5     -'      37b     =+'     46w     -'      40b     -'      42w     =+'     45b     =+'     44w     -'      41b     -'      36b     -'      38w     3
44      POS             2.0     =+'     45w     -'      42b     =+'     46w     -'      40w     -'      37b     -'      43b     -'      36w     -'      41b     -'      39b     2
45      TekiRandom      2.0     -'      44b     =+'     48w     -'      42b     =+'     46b     -'      43w     -'      41w     -'      37b     -'      39w     -'      40b     2
46      ParisHilton     1.0     =+'     48w     -'      43b     -'      44b     -'      45w     -'      41b     -'      42w     -'      40w     -'      37b     -'      36w     1
47      gogobello       5.0     -'      22w     -'      17b                                                                                                                     0
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Sven
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Re: On-line engine blitz tourney October

Post by Sven »

Thanks Guenther. Is my following interpretation of the various entries in the WDL columns correct?

Code: Select all

=+' means win?
='  means draw?
-'  means loss?
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Guenther
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Re: On-line engine blitz tourney October

Post by Guenther »

Sven wrote:Thanks Guenther. Is my following interpretation of the various entries in the WDL columns correct?

Code: Select all

=+' means win?
='  means draw?
-'  means loss?
Yep, that's right Sven.

The eternal table etc is already prepared - the html is still missing and pgn of course too (may take a few days). [Edit: html is now there, pgn link non-functional currently]

Here is the direct link again.
(Note that now the header lines and the names/number columns are fixed
which gives better viewing when scrolling both ways)

I don't remember if hiding columns can be reset in view mode only,
thus all columns are visible by now.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... G_MUXsVBms
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nionita
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Re: On-line engine blitz tourney October

Post by nionita »

Anyway, I like this system and I believe that it is more stable than swiss, in the sense that the results are more reliable and less a matter of luck. Of course a bit randomness occurs in every game even between (almost) equal opponents, but still.
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Re: On-line engine blitz tourney October

Post by sasachess »

I'm sorry for the forfait. Yesterday I had some network problems.