Ugly UCI

[hgm]

An example of an update, that appeared recently in the protocol is the way to report mate scores. The new protocol text specifies:

Mate scores should be indicated as 100000 + N for "mate in N moves", and -100000 - N for "mated in N moves"

. "should" is really a strong word. So, to me, an engine that does not display mate scores this way is not compliant, and neither is a GUI that does not correctly interpret such scores. Of course, they may still be working, but they are actually not compliant to the present protocol.

No.

The protocol specs do not require a GUI to interpret mate scores. If a GUI decides to print '100006' in stead of 'mate in 6' wherever it prints scores, that would be perfectly compliant, and reasonably readable. And engines that print 32757 would still get 32757 printed even in GUIs adapted to this mate-score spec, like always. Absolutely nothing gets broken by this, it is fully backward compatible, both for GUIs and engines, and there are no drawbacks for engines adopting this standard. In fact even those benefit on legacy GUIs, as 100006 is a lot more user-friendly than 32757.

As to the qualification dead: Latin and classical Greek and Hebrew are usually referred to as dead languages. The fact that they are still taught in schools, and works by Homer in this language are still in print, and when any scrolls found in archeological digs would reveal hitherto unknown works of him would get instantly publised does not really alter that. However, if you think 'dead' is the wrong word, we could call it a 'living fossile'.

Your us of 'significant' actually more doubtful. Most truly significant engines from the past years, such as Sjaak II, Lima, HaChu or Shokidoki, all use WB protocol. Engines that just play orthodox Chess are basically ignored by everyone but an extremely small group of engine collectors (which of course are strongly over-represented on this forum) when they are more than 30 Elo behind Stockfish. No one else is interested in them, and they might as well not exist.

[Evert]

As to the qualification dead: Latin and classical Greek and Hebrew are usually referred to as dead languages. The fact that they are still taught in schools, and works by Homer in this language are still in print, and when any scrolls found in archeological digs would reveal hitherto unknown works of him would get instantly publised does not really alter that. However, if you think 'dead' is the wrong word, we could call it a 'living fossile'.

Stale is another possibility.

UCI is (still) fully functional, but inevitably it will either change to accommodate new features or become obsolete in the future.
Even if it hasn't been updated in a long time, I still expect that it will be in the future. Time will tell.

Your us of 'significant' actually more doubtful. Most truly significant engines from the past years, such as Sjaak II, Lima, HaChu or Shokidoki, all use WB protocol.

To be fair, Sjaak II also understands UCI, USI and UCCI (or should understand these anyway, I haven't tested it that thoroughly). Of course that's mostly pointless because there is no standard way for an UCI engine and GUI to agree on a variant...

[stegemma]

[...]As to the qualification dead: Latin and classical Greek and Hebrew are usually referred to as dead languages.

In the Vatican city the official language is latin and this language is still used as an "universal" language between priests, in extreme circumstances. I'm not sure but the language itself gets adapted to new technologies (bank post and so on) with the limits that you can imagine. I think that Hebrew are spoken in Israel and Greek in Greece. Of course the imperial latin at the time of Augusto is dead as the greek in the time of the old Athens and Sparta... but this languages can't be referred as "dead".

The same is for WINBOARD/XBOARD and UCI, at the present.

[Roger Brown]

[...]As to the qualification dead: Latin and classical Greek and Hebrew are usually referred to as dead languages.

In the Vatican city the official language is latin and this language is still used as an "universal" language between priests, in extreme circumstances. I'm not sure but the language itself gets adapted to new technologies (bank post and so on) with the limits that you can imagine. I think that Hebrew are spoken in Israel and Greek in Greece. Of course the imperial latin at the time of Augusto is dead as the greek in the time of the old Athens and Sparta... but this languages can't be referred as "dead".

The same is for WINBOARD/XBOARD and UCI, at the present.

Hello Stefano,

A discussion in the technical forum that I actually understand!

There is a distinction between dead and extinct.

Extinct I think is nearer in meaning to what you want to say above. An extinct language is no longer spoken by anyone.

H.G.'s definition is apt for dead - without getting into whether that applies to UCI or CECP. Dead does not mean that there are no users of the language. Sanskrit, Latin etc. have specific, if very limited, use as sacred languages and are taught and used today.

Later.

[Evert]

[...]As to the qualification dead: Latin and classical Greek and Hebrew are usually referred to as dead languages.

In the Vatican city the official language is latin and this language is still used as an "universal" language between priests, in extreme circumstances. I'm not sure but the language itself gets adapted to new technologies (bank post and so on) with the limits that you can imagine. I think that Hebrew are spoken in Israel and Greek in Greece. Of course the imperial latin at the time of Augusto is dead as the greek in the time of the old Athens and Sparta... but this languages can't be referred as "dead".

A dead language is a language that has no native speakers. Latin is a dead language because no-one speaks Latin as a first language. Hebrew is a resurrected language: there were no native speakers anymore until the 20th century (off the top of my head) when it was revived.
Modern Greek is a direct descendant from classical Greek, but it's still true that classical Greek is no longer spoken. Italian and Latin are considered different languages, I don't know if modern and classical Greek are closer or similarly distant though.

[mcostalba]

Italian and Latin are considered different languages

They are!

Modern italian is more similar to spanish than to latin, and of course both italian and spanish derive directly from latin (as many other european languages).

It is interesting to me that also english language, although not a strict derivative, uses many words derived from latin, although not in the common word, but in its similar scientific-scholars words, like:

milk - lactation (the latter is a direct derivation from latin)
home - domestic
water - aquatic
gold - aurific
soldier - militia
woman - female
book - library
senator (well this _is_ latin
judge, law, etc similar juridic terms (also these are a very direct derivations)


Sorry to go off topic, but main discussion it was getting boring

[Roger Brown]

[...]As to the qualification dead: Latin and classical Greek and Hebrew are usually referred to as dead languages.

In the Vatican city the official language is latin and this language is still used as an "universal" language between priests, in extreme circumstances. I'm not sure but the language itself gets adapted to new technologies (bank post and so on) with the limits that you can imagine. I think that Hebrew are spoken in Israel and Greek in Greece. Of course the imperial latin at the time of Augusto is dead as the greek in the time of the old Athens and Sparta... but this languages can't be referred as "dead".

A dead language is a language that has no native speakers. Latin is a dead language because no-one speaks Latin as a first language. Hebrew is a resurrected language: there were no native speakers anymore until the 20th century (off the top of my head) when it was revived.
Modern Greek is a direct descendant from classical Greek, but it's still true that classical Greek is no longer spoken. Italian and Latin are considered different languages, I don't know if modern and classical Greek are closer or similarly distant though.

Hello Evert,

Wonderful!

Later.

[Roger Brown]

Italian and Latin are considered different languages

They are!

Modern italian is more similar to spanish than to latin, and of course both italian and spanish derive directly from latin (as many other european languages).

It is interesting to me that also english language, although not a strict derivative, uses many words derived from latin, although not in the common word, but in its similar scientific-scholars words, like:

milk - lactation (the latter is a direct derivation from latin)
home - domestic
water - aquatic
gold - aurific
soldier - militia
woman - female
book - library
senator (well this _is_ latin
judge, law, etc similar juridic terms (also these are a very direct derivations)


Sorry to go off topic, but main discussion it was getting boring

Hello Marco,

Apology accepted!

Later.

[stegemma]

[...]
Modern Greek is a direct descendant from classical Greek, but it's still true that classical Greek is no longer spoken. Italian and Latin are considered different languages, I don't know if modern and classical Greek are closer or similarly distant though.

Yes, italian and latin are different languages (but similar, of course). I don't know latin or greek but I've read that for greek the situation is more complex (see it on wikipedia). Other than in Grecia, There are some people in Italy that use a form of ancient greek as a dialect, so somehow we cannot consider greek "dead". In Italy, often both dialect and italian should be considered native languages, because we use both since we learn to talk (that's true even for me). So this human languages cannot be defined absolutely "dead".

Engine protocols should considered "dead" when no engines use them (=no people talking) or when there are no more updates to those protocols? I think that the first option is true. Serial port will be considered obsolete but still not dead... because a lot of hardware still use it, for sample. Maybe floppy disk are dead, almost as a backup device.

Even this thread maybe is better to be considered "dead"... because it lead us to nowhere!

[hgm]

I think that for languages 'dead' means the language no longer evolves, to adapt to the need of the time. This is why I consider UCI a dead protocol, and CECP a living one.