Operating System

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Which OS do you use ?

Windows
46
48%
Mac OS
12
13%
Linux
37
39%
 
Total votes: 95

diep
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Re: Operating System

Post by diep » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:12 pm

Evert wrote:I haven't experienced any problems installing Windows games in Linux and I've been using 64 bit wine for at least the past half year....
The stuff that works under wine works 10-20% slower than it works in windows i measured when booting at the SAME machine windows and after that linux (so not at the same time, but just reboot to other disk).

I measured that with Diep single core.
So the other cores idled.
SMP it never worked under wine of course.

So this is the 100% same executable. Really a lot more than 10% slower.
I didn't even accurately measure it, that much slower it was.

10% is death penalty.

In fact in this nation we once fought a war against Spain, as they introduced an additional 10% tax. The so called 10th penny...

The Netherlands won that fight after 80 years by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty_Years'_War

Of course i realize with the marxistic communists (Socialistic party) in the polls being the biggest political party here now for upcoming September elections, 10% sounds little, as they want to directly move to 75% tax,
but that's not hte issue here.

It's *considerable* slower to run applications under wine. I don't understand the statements here that it's the same speed. Maybe some people need glasses.

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Evert
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Re: Operating System

Post by Evert » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:56 pm

diep wrote: The stuff that works under wine works 10-20% slower than it works in windows i measured when booting at the SAME machine windows and after that linux (so not at the same time, but just reboot to other disk).
Could be, never looked into it. Not particularly interested either; I either run Windows programs under Wine or I don't run them at all. I'm not going through the hassle of installing an operating system I will never use and have no other use for.

ZirconiumX
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Re: Linux / OS X

Post by ZirconiumX » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:01 pm

stevenaaus wrote:I recently moved to KDE 4.5.2 (64 bit Fed 14) and am getting used to it. Powerful enough, with GL compositing and not too many bugs. Windows 7 seems to have some nice features too - but also motza of the usual microsoft crap.
Vincent wrote:Too many annoying bugs in os/x meanwhile all sorts of software soon doesn't work as every few months there is a 'new version' and their development tools only work always for the 'latest' version of os/x. Very mean way of doing business.

Laugh. I hear you :) Their upgrade cycle is the worse, and now their new macbooks are no longer upgradeable hardware-wise.

But I've learnt how to use OSX (almost) properly, and have really come to appreciate some of it's "different" features. I think stability varies alot with major and minor OSX releases. 10.7 (current) is probably a little undercooked, and they're moving to 10.8 very shortly.
Vincent wrote:OS/x is too amateuristic. You know select 2 items, click right mouse button to copy it. OOPS it unselected it already, won't work!
...
os/x doesn't get through any ergonomic guide line. it should be fined if you ask me for that reason.
Although it does things differently, and takes time to learn, amateur is the wrong word. Apple's Objective C framework and XCode is a premier development suite, and makes for very attractive, integrated and consistent interfaces.
You read me wrong. It's not a 'learning cycle'. I've professional developed for os/x in that sense (what other reason would i have a 2800 euro laptop for, i wouldn't be able to afford a 2800 euro laptop, even if i would want to spend that much for a buggy OS with a design laptop that overheats already if you play a 1080p video, not to mention the joy using gcc 4.0 gives, the only compiler that loses contests with a turtle). It's just not ergonomic. If you count objectively how many mouse movements you do, they won't get through any ergonomic guide line simply with os/x.

They're stuck in the ancient past.
Yes. Of course they are.

The dock at the bottom of the screen on Win 7 comes from OS X, just to give one example.
Simple example, attach a huge TFT at your tiny macbookpro (i have a 17 inch model) and if you open an application the pulldown menu is located still at the TFT of the laptop, so you have for each small tiny action to move your mouse to the other monitor and click there.

This is simply outdated form of doing things. This is still from the single console single processor times from 1980s.

This is not 'getting used', you just can't modify it. Sure you can enforce os/x to have the pulldown menu at the huge TFT, in which case it doesn't work on the laptop TFT, and things fock up as well if you don't attach the TFT.

The thing is, it's not ergonomic.
Unplug the TFT.
Another big BUG is the way how selecting things works. Obviously i'm using a 3 mouse button mouse with it. If you keep down the control key you CAN select more than 1 item, just like with windows.

In windows and *nix you then right click the mouse and can COPY the items.

If you do that in os/x it has already UNSELECTED the items. This is another stupid bug in os/x. If you are experienced in os/x you know there is 2 obvious ways to get this action done. Both require a lot more work than at windows/linux.
Wrong. I know three.

One. Command+C
Two. Edit Menu. Copy.
Three. Right-click *on a selected file*. Copy.
So from functional viewpoint they will NOT get through any serious OBJECTIVE ergonomic usability certification with os/x.
Linux and Win don't get it either.

Windows 7, top of the range version.

My wrists were sore after an hour.

Same for Linux, except worse becuase all the DE's try to make a windows user feel at home.
It's too much overhead to get simple daily stuff done in os/x.
If you want something to do itself buy a time machine and go 300 years into the future. Then it'll do it, then kill you.
OS/X increases odds for injuries like RSI dramatically.
I've been using OS X for five years, solidly, every day. No RSI or anything.

Matthew:out
Some believe in the almighty dollar.

I believe in the almighty printf statement.

stevenaaus
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Re: Linux / OS X

Post by stevenaaus » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:10 pm

diep wrote:You read me wrong.... It's just not ergonomic. If you count objectively how many mouse movements you do, they won't get through any ergonomic guide line simply with os/x.
Hmmm. Yes - their GUI is not geared towards power users,.
In windows and *nix you then right click the mouse and can COPY the items.

If you do that in os/x it has already UNSELECTED the items. This is another stupid bug in os/x. If you are experienced in os/x you know there is 2 obvious ways to get this action done. Both require a lot more work than at windows/linux.

So from functional viewpoint they will NOT get through any serious OBJECTIVE ergonomic usability certification with os/x.
Actally - the apple key is much better than the control key as a default meta key. It is beside the spacebar and very easy to hit.
It's too much overhead to get simple daily stuff done in os/x.
I agree there are quite a few instances like this when the GUI seems a little brain-dead. They really irked me too for a long time, but after a few weeks i got used to it's nuances, and found i could make a dev environment (GUI and consoles) that enabled me to work as quickly as on Linux. For example, their iconised app switching (expose i think it's called) is just perfect. KDE-4 tries to do the same thing, but it's all ham fisted.
OS/X increases odds for injuries like RSI dramatically.
Come on man :P
Matthew wrote:The dock at the bottom of the screen on Win 7 comes from OS X, just to give one example.
Yes - the Dock is a great thing. :)
Last edited by stevenaaus on Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

stevenaaus
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Nex gen

Post by stevenaaus » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:22 pm

Anyway, desktops are increasingly going the way of the Dodo. iOS and Android are the main battlegrounds now.

Anyone want to bet Windows 8 / Surface won't be another humiliating shot-duck for Mickeysoft. :twisted: Competing against their hardware partners is a bad idea imho. These people have a choice - Android or Win8. And beside that, microsoft are years behind everyone else in terms of making a touch driven gui.

diep
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Re: Nex gen

Post by diep » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:42 pm

stevenaaus wrote:Anyway, desktops are increasingly going the way of the Dodo. iOS and Android are the main battlegrounds now.

Anyone want to bet Windows 8 / Surface won't be another humiliating shot-duck for Mickeysoft. :twisted: Competing against their hardware partners is a bad idea imho. These people have a choice - Android or Win8. And beside that, microsoft are years behind everyone else in terms of making a touch driven gui.
To some extend i agree that desktops are increasingly under attack. For number crunching it'll keep existing for now as low power cpu's that are fast simply do not exist.

There is a few points however.

Realize the first ipad from apple with ios, that this version 1.0, still popular here and there, it can't even multithread. Everything has to be 1 thread.

That's very outdated you know.

Most mobile OS-es are pretty primitive so far. This is not possible at a mobile and that isn't possible. It'll change.

So far they keep equipping those things with cheapskate dual cores though. ARM7 version is very popular at 1Ghz. This is slow junk.

I just analyzed for tonight a variation to prepare for my opponent; as he isn't checking this forum within 15 minutes from now it's easy to post here the line i analyzed.

1.e4,c5 2.Nf3,d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3,a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4

And now my opponent, if i go into this line, will play 7..Nc6

Even todays software has troubles though seeing the lines well there, and you bet it's total superior over me in those lines.

At a mobile with a 1Ghz ARM dual core from which usually you also lose 1 core to communication protocols, forget about it.

Knowing your mobile is similar to the laptop from some time ago it's no difference between taking a laptop and a desktop to a hotel.

First of all it's insured in a hotel and secondly the desktop has way more power and your mobile phone can already do what your laptop can.

Just typing is hell slower at a mobile phone.

I don't think it's tough to produce touch device type software. I disagree there completely. I'm not defending anyone here. It's an open battleground and you see that the operating systems they show up with are pretty much childish, especially from security viewpoint.

The quicker and cheaper it gets produced the easier. The actual facade you like so much is the simplest part of the work really.

What's really worrying is that manufacturers in order to keep price down, still keep using those cheapskate suck processors and this in hardware that's pretty expensive.

Much of the sales there comes from the 3d world nations. Instead of a laptop or computer, they buy the cheaper mobile phone.

As for companies, just a few years ago when i took a good look at one of worlds largest banks where i have an account, they still were using OS/2. Not os/x, OS/2. You still remember it?

Of course that was just for terminals and what they need it for is pretty limited.

We can definitely say that microsoft is a tad overcharging for what they deliver. They deliver something that's systematically unsafe and though they do big effort for maintaining it, they keep it a single processor operating system to large extend.

There is no 'increased quality' for what they deliver. Same problem with linux. It's a single processor concept that's monolithic. Drivers all integrate into the kernel and Linus isn't willing to ever change that. He doesn't give a clear explanation why. Just an excuse.

The excuse is that it would slow the kernel down. At the same time he doesn't want to really make it multicore capable. The important functionality like sockets still works in a centralized unsafe manner and is central locking every single action it undertakes.

You find it weird that seemingly stuff works fine at the mobile phones?

The big 2 operating systems Linux and Windows are still single processor and you feel that smell everywhere.

THAT is what makes it unsafe.

Now suppose it wouldn't be that outdated. Suppose both would be SAFE and multiprocessor not locking central. Then suddenly you'd dislike mobile phones as they're so unsafe from security viewpoint.

Every chinese guy who walks closeby has all your memo's instantly. By bluetooth or whatever technology you didn't realize that auto activates itself when you didn't suspect it.

Yeah sure, just for a couple of milliseconds. Enough to get hacked when they need to :)

They both didn't improve much. Linux has more drivers nowadays which is nice, means more companies that wrote those drivers can also hack you.

In that sense your desktop simply IS NOT different from your mobile phone. As long as it keeps that way, desktops for many people don't have a big added value.

Why not just add a TFT to their mobile phone next generation and a keyboard if they need to write a document?

Who needs the old fashioned desktop there?

So there we agree, but probably not for the same reason :)

tano-urayoan
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Re: Operating System

Post by tano-urayoan » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:26 am

Hijacking the thread.
I have a PIV with 256 mb of RAM. I want to install a Linux distro on it for a 6 year child use. (The child is already "comfortable" using basic operations in Windows).
Which distro wil you recommend?

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pocopito
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Re: Operating System

Post by pocopito » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:31 am

Maybe you can try this:

http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/

Maybe it's not friendly enough, but it'll for sure fit the hardware requirements.
Two first meanings of the dutch word "leren":
1. leren [vc] (learn, larn, acquire) acquire or gain knowledge or skills.
2. leren [v] (teach, learn, instruct) impart skills or knowledge to.

stevenaaus
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Re: Operating System

Post by stevenaaus » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:18 am

tano-urayoan wrote:Hijacking the thread.
I have a PIV with 256 mb of RAM. I want to install a Linux distro on it for a 6 year child use. (The child is already "comfortable" using basic operations in Windows).
Which distro wil you recommend?
Any mainstream distro should be ok, but i prefer Mint and Fedora. Linux Mint is probably easier to use.

But the small memory is the main issue i'd say. KDE and Gnome will eat this up, so you should probably use Xfce as your window manager. Also , you *must* set up a swap file or partition when installing (which is normally done automatically, but not always).

So either download a specific XFCE distro such as http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xfce or http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1725 - or (with a normal fedora installation) install it with "yum install xfwm4"

stevenaaus
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Re: Nex gen

Post by stevenaaus » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:39 am

diep wrote:Realize the first ipad from apple with ios, that this version 1.0, still popular here and there, it can't even multithread. Everything has to be 1 thread.
Yes , of course PCs will always exist and thrive... but for 90% of people, a good tablet is much more suitable than a PC. That is what i meant to say.
I don't think it's tough to produce touch device type software.
Hmmm - i dont agree. It is what Apple have done so well, and it's the reason they are know the worlds most valuable company.
There is no 'increased quality' for what they deliver. Same problem with linux. It's a single processor concept that's monolithic. Drivers all integrate into the kernel and Linus isn't willing to ever change that. He doesn't give a clear explanation why. Just an excuse.

The excuse is that it would slow the kernel down. At the same time he doesn't want to really make it multicore capable. The important functionality like sockets still works in a centralized unsafe manner and is central locking every single action it undertakes.
No. Sorry, but i prefer Linus' technical assessment of good OS practice. OSes are a very low level thing... a very specific voodoo. :)
Every chinese guy who walks closeby has all your memo's instantly. By bluetooth or whatever technology you didn't realize that auto activates itself when you didn't suspect it.
Yes, but that's hardly related to Linux being a monlothic kernel. :?

This is a very pertinent issue. Eben Moglen: Time To Apply The First Law Of Robotics To Our Smartphones

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