LMR, Razoring, Futility.... with chess varient with drops?

[jdm64]

I currently don't disable null-move in end-game. But I'm not sure if it's failing on end-game or opening. I will have to look at the actual games instead of just looking at the summary stats.

Since the game starts out with an empty board, would end-game still be when one side has placed and lost all sliders? But also, pawns in my game are really powerful because they move all directions.

[hgm]

They might move in all directions, but they do not promote. A Ferz (1-step diagonal mover) is worth only about 1.5 Pawn (including pair bonus, i.e. 2 Ferz are worth 300 on a scale where Knight = 325). And I expect your omni-directonal Pawn to be slightly weaker (but all base value, no pair bonses as it is not color bound), say 1.4. so it is not that powerful. (Funny thing is that a pair of omni-directional Pawns has mating potential, while a KFFK is generally a draw.)

The reason to switch off null move is to be able to see zugzwang everywhere in the search. As long as you can still drop sliders it is unlikely that you are in zugzwang. The danger is that the engine might not be able to win KRK or KPK with null move on for the bare King. This would cost you a lot of points.

What depths do you reach in a typical midlle-game position, with null move on or off?

[jdm64]

What depths do you reach in a typical midlle-game position, with null move on or off?

What ply is typical middle-game? I ran some tests of a game I'm currently playing with a friend. It's only 13 moves into the game (7 full turns). Hopefully the results are accurate because it took a long time to run these -- restarting several times

test computer: Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5000+ (2.6 GHz)
time information is cumulative in msecs (300,000 ms = 5mins)

1P6/8/r3nb2/5Q2/2K5/1P2p3/4N3/kp1R4 b ppppppnbrqPPPPPPNBBR 0 7

============
without-null
============
I estimate depth 8 to take ~50mins

newgame
setboard fen 1P6/8/r3nb2/5Q2/2K5/1P2p3/4N3/kp1R4 b ppppppnbrqPPPPPPNBBR 0 7
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 4
stats depth 2 time 32
stats depth 3 time 142
stats depth 4 time 981
stats depth 5 time 4,190
stats depth 6 time 34,110
stats depth 7 time 304,032
move Qb2
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 1
stats depth 2 time 17
stats depth 3 time 17
stats depth 4 time 17
stats depth 5 time 17
stats depth 6 time 17
stats depth 7 time 269,857
move Pc2
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 3
stats depth 2 time 5
stats depth 3 time 5
stats depth 4 time 5
stats depth 5 time 5
stats depth 6 time 5
stats depth 7 time 420,266
move a6c6
special check

OR (clearing hash table after each search)

newgame
setboard fen 1P6/8/r3nb2/5Q2/2K5/1P2p3/4N3/kp1R4 b ppppppnbrqPPPPPPNBBR 0 7
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 5
stats depth 2 time 32
stats depth 3 time 146
stats depth 4 time 1,035
stats depth 5 time 4,454
stats depth 6 time 35,330
stats depth 7 time 314,828
move Qb2
ok
clearhash
go
stats depth 1 time 1
stats depth 2 time 48
stats depth 3 time 100
stats depth 4 time 954
stats depth 5 time 7,745
stats depth 6 time 73,810
stats depth 7 time 399,282
move Nc3
ok
clearhash
go
stats depth 1 time 19
stats depth 2 time 36
stats depth 3 time 201
stats depth 4 time 2,894
stats depth 5 time 15,274
stats depth 6 time 114,809
stats depth 7 time 910,861
move a6c6
special check

=========
with-null
=========

newgame
setboard fen 1P6/8/r3nb2/5Q2/2K5/1P2p3/4N3/kp1R4 b ppppppnbrqPPPPPPNBBR 0 7
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 5
stats depth 2 time 29
stats depth 3 time 141
stats depth 4 time 690
stats depth 5 time 2,260
stats depth 6 time 19,241
stats depth 7 time 73,286
stats depth 8 time 297,604
move Qb2
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 1
stats depth 2 time 25
stats depth 3 time 33
stats depth 4 time 191
stats depth 5 time 191
stats depth 6 time 191
stats depth 7 time 191
stats depth 8 time 3,251,173
move Bc2
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 4
stats depth 2 time 7
stats depth 3 time 7
stats depth 4 time 7
stats depth 5 time 7
stats depth 6 time 7
stats depth 7 time 7
stats depth 8 time 1,241,700
move a6c6
special check

OR (clearing hash table after each search)

newgame
setboard fen 1P6/8/r3nb2/5Q2/2K5/1P2p3/4N3/kp1R4 b ppppppnbrqPPPPPPNBBR 0 7
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 5
stats depth 2 time 28
stats depth 3 time 140
stats depth 4 time 602
stats depth 5 time 1,815
stats depth 6 time 18,179
stats depth 7 time 70,170
stats depth 8 time 262,018
move Qb2
ok
clearhash
go
stats depth 1 time 1
stats depth 2 time 65
stats depth 3 time 129
stats depth 4 time 1,364
stats depth 5 time 6,874
stats depth 6 time 43,664
stats depth 7 time 156,920
stats depth 8 time 1,886,549
move Nc3
ok
clearhash
go
stats depth 1 time 20
stats depth 2 time 37
stats depth 3 time 139
stats depth 4 time 1,266
stats depth 5 time 2,334
stats depth 6 time 14,581
stats depth 7 time 88,215
stats depth 8 time 779,716
move a6c6
special check

As you can see search times are long because of all the piece placement options. Testing the same board layout but making all the to be placed pieces captured really speeds up the search!

1P6/8/r3nb2/5Q2/2K5/1P2p3/4N3/kp1R4 b - 0 28

=========
without-null
=========

newgame
setboard fen 1P6/8/r3nb2/5Q2/2K5/1P2p3/4N3/kp1R4 b - 0 28
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 0
stats depth 3 time 3
stats depth 4 time 6
stats depth 5 time 19
stats depth 6 time 43
stats depth 7 time 402
stats depth 8 time 761
stats depth 9 time 2,811
stats depth 10 time 3,455
stats depth 11 time 5,050
stats depth 12 time 25,971
stats depth 13 time 69,147
stats depth 14 time 377,848
move a6c6
special check
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 0
stats depth 3 time 0
stats depth 4 time 0
stats depth 5 time 0
stats depth 6 time 0
stats depth 7 time 0
stats depth 8 time 0
stats depth 9 time 0
stats depth 10 time 0
stats depth 11 time 0
stats depth 12 time 0
stats depth 13 time 0
stats depth 14 time 229,241
move c4b4
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 0
stats depth 3 time 1
stats depth 4 time 1
stats depth 5 time 3
stats depth 6 time 10
stats depth 7 time 38
stats depth 8 time 76
stats depth 9 time 209
stats depth 10 time 526
stats depth 11 time 13,396
stats depth 12 time 13,396
stats depth 13 time 13,396
stats depth 14 time 1,916,053
move c6b6
special check

OR (clearing hash table after each search)

newgame
setboard fen 1P6/8/r3nb2/5Q2/2K5/1P2p3/4N3/kp1R4 b - 0 28
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 1
stats depth 3 time 7
stats depth 4 time 13
stats depth 5 time 38
stats depth 6 time 89
stats depth 7 time 810
stats depth 8 time 1,189
stats depth 9 time 3,020
stats depth 10 time 3,669
stats depth 11 time 5,227
stats depth 12 time 24,335
stats depth 13 time 66,774
stats depth 14 time 397,819
move a6c6
special check
clearhash
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 1
stats depth 3 time 4
stats depth 4 time 19
stats depth 5 time 64
stats depth 6 time 481
stats depth 7 time 1,059
stats depth 8 time 3,757
stats depth 9 time 15,076
stats depth 10 time 42,137
stats depth 11 time 156,597
stats depth 12 time 451,946
stats depth 13 time 2,281,088
stats depth 14 time 2,962,973
move c4b4
ok
clearhash
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 1
stats depth 3 time 4
stats depth 4 time 12
stats depth 5 time 47
stats depth 6 time 110
stats depth 7 time 688
stats depth 8 time 3,305
stats depth 9 time 7,482
stats depth 10 time 68,755
stats depth 11 time 140,011
stats depth 12 time 338,124
stats depth 13 time 1,247,851
stats depth 14 time 4,184,222
move c6b6
special check

=========
with-null
=========

newgame
setboard fen 1P6/8/r3nb2/5Q2/2K5/1P2p3/4N3/kp1R4 b - 0 28
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 1
stats depth 3 time 6
stats depth 4 time 11
stats depth 5 time 35
stats depth 6 time 71
stats depth 7 time 215
stats depth 8 time 486
stats depth 9 time 1,031
stats depth 10 time 1,261
stats depth 11 time 3,038
stats depth 12 time 5,255
stats depth 13 time 25,601
stats depth 14 time 40,771
stats depth 15 time 66,549
stats depth 16 time 146,648
move a6c6
special check
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 0
stats depth 3 time 2
stats depth 4 time 6
stats depth 5 time 17
stats depth 6 time 54
stats depth 7 time 134
stats depth 8 time 452
stats depth 9 time 1,415
stats depth 10 time 4,240
stats depth 11 time 11,422
stats depth 12 time 11,422
stats depth 13 time 11,422
stats depth 14 time 11,422
stats depth 15 time 11,422
stats depth 16 time 136,888
move c4b4
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 0
stats depth 3 time 0
stats depth 4 time 0
stats depth 5 time 0
stats depth 6 time 0
stats depth 7 time 0
stats depth 8 time 0
stats depth 9 time 0
stats depth 10 time 0
stats depth 11 time 0
stats depth 12 time 0
stats depth 13 time 0
stats depth 14 time 0
stats depth 15 time 0
stats depth 16 time 71,990
move f6e7
special check

OR (clearing hash table after each search)

newgame
setboard fen 1P6/8/r3nb2/5Q2/2K5/1P2p3/4N3/kp1R4 b - 0 28
ok
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 1
stats depth 3 time 6
stats depth 4 time 11
stats depth 5 time 33
stats depth 6 time 68
stats depth 7 time 207
stats depth 8 time 463
stats depth 9 time 1,079
stats depth 10 time 1,303
stats depth 11 time 2,942
stats depth 12 time 5,086
stats depth 13 time 25,002
stats depth 14 time 37,808
stats depth 15 time 69,021
stats depth 16 time 120,949
move a6c6
special check
clearhash
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 1
stats depth 3 time 4
stats depth 4 time 22
stats depth 5 time 54
stats depth 6 time 332
stats depth 7 time 623
stats depth 8 time 1,848
stats depth 9 time 5,469
stats depth 10 time 12,285
stats depth 11 time 25,452
stats depth 12 time 62,748
stats depth 13 time 146,090
stats depth 14 time 479,213
stats depth 15 time 807,452
stats depth 16 time 1,070,759
move c4b4
ok
clearhash
go
stats depth 1 time 0
stats depth 2 time 1
stats depth 3 time 4
stats depth 4 time 13
stats depth 5 time 37
stats depth 6 time 145
stats depth 7 time 433
stats depth 8 time 1,109
stats depth 9 time 2,302
stats depth 10 time 8,728
stats depth 11 time 20,526
stats depth 12 time 57,268
stats depth 13 time 134,893
stats depth 14 time 330,410
stats depth 15 time 594,490
stats depth 16 time 1,020,015
move f6e7
special check

The hash table is working, at least partially.